Fitna

[Chef Jim]

Nope.

Ok then if the Koran calls for the murder of all Jews and gays then Islam is in fact a threat to mankind.

[Chilly]

Nope.

 

That's certainly one part of it. There are many factors that lead to terrorism. It's of no surprise to me that organized "religion" is one of them. It's the foundation in this instance.

 

Which is really the fundamental part of my argument: It is not the religion that is causing terrorism in the first place, it is the religion that is being used by terrorist leaders as a justification and a tool to accomplish their ends (as has happened all throughout history).

[Alaska Darin]

Which is really the fundamental part of my argument: It is not the religion that is causing terrorism in the first place, it is the religion that is being used by terrorist leaders as a justification and a tool to accomplish their ends (as has happened all throughout history).

You're not wrong. The funny part is how hard other people argue to the contrary, which is what they've done throughout history. Leading to cool things like the Salem Witch "Trials".

 

Look at the bright side: Now we have Pay-Per-View.

[K-9]

I don't know what "having a true leader" has to do with anything. The biggest difference between the 3 largest religions is two of them no longer have complete control of entire societal infrastructures.

 

I would add that the third also has complete control of entire societal infrastructures in a small portion of the world that just so happens to contain the highest percentage of known reserves of oil. Upon which the entire world's economy is driven. What does that have to do with anything? Well, it's no coincidence that these radical clerics recruit heavily from these countries as the young male populations in these countries are ripe for the plucking. Huge, huge revenues from their precious resources, yet sky-high unemployment and deplorable living conditions for so many. And they have no say (power) to affect change in these non-democratic governments. The radical clerics have an easy sell in this environment.

 

Fortunately, these radical clerics are a drop in the bucket of over 1 billion followers of Islam. Unfortunately it only takes one.

[K-9]

Which is really the fundamental part of my argument: It is not the religion that is causing terrorism in the first place, it is the religion that is being used by terrorist leaders as a justification and a tool to accomplish their ends (as has happened all throughout history).

 

This is a response to an earlier in-space post but it's pertinent to your post as well.

 

Of course that's true but it can be a hard sell to some. You'd think the math would be enough to convince people; there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. If they were all hell bent on destruction of the non-believing masses you'd have carnage everywhere.

 

As to an earlier post about the religion causing terrorism or "something else." That's an important question for us and people all around the world. The vast majority of these Muslim terrorists are disaffected young men living in monarchies, dictatorships, or some other form of non-democratic government. Most live in countries with very high unemployment and little hope in the way of economic opportunities. Many live in vastly rich countries with huge disparities in how the wealth from those resources is distributed. Many also have lived entire lives in areas destroyed by routine terrorist acts and the reprisals for those acts. Compounding this is instant access to mass media messages and images.

 

Is it any wonder at all that these are the people targeted by these radical clerics? Is it a surprise that their message would APPEAL to this type of individual? That they could be so willing to embrace the message? Not if history is any indication.

 

It isn't the religion. It's twisting it to enlist those willing to believe the twisted message. In the end it's not about religion at all. It's just politics as usual.

[Alaska Darin]

I would add that the third also has complete control of entire societal infrastructures in a small portion of the world that just so happens to contain the highest percentage of known reserves of oil. Upon which the entire world's economy is driven. What does that have to do with anything? Well, it's no coincidence that these radical clerics recruit heavily from these countries as the young male populations in these countries are ripe for the plucking. Huge, huge revenues from their precious resources, yet sky-high unemployment and deplorable living conditions for so many. And they have no say (power) to affect change in these non-democratic governments. The radical clerics have an easy sell in this environment.

I addressed that without your detail earlier. Nice job.

[Pete]

Which is really the fundamental part of my argument: It is not the religion that is causing terrorism in the first place, it is the religion that is being used by terrorist leaders as a justification and a tool to accomplish their ends (as has happened all throughout history).

Three year old girl in Fitna says "Jews are pigs. Allah says so". Other quotes in that film- "To hell with freedom". "Death to non-Muslims!". That is not terrorist leaders. That is a movement

[Chilly]

Three year old girl in Fitna says "Jews are pigs. Allah says so". Other quotes in that film- "To hell with freedom". "Death to non-Muslims!". That is not terrorist leaders. That is a movement

 

Are you suggesting that this 3-year-old girl has not been brainwashed, but rather read the Qu'ran and came to this decision?

[yall]

Are you suggesting that this 3-year-old girl has not been brainwashed, but rather read the Qu'ran and came to this decision?

 

No doubt she was brainwashed.

 

Then again she could have easily come to the same conclusion by living her life by the same standards as Mohammed. A religion is as good/bad as the founder, and Mohammed was a bad guy.

 

Sure, he was 'peaceful' at first, but as he went on and consolidated power, he became much more violent and less tolerant of those who disagreed with him. He had people murdered, beheaded, and showed contempt and disrespect to other religious beliefs, most notably Jews and Hindus.

 

I don't know how his actions can be seperated from the religion he created.

[Pete]

Are you suggesting that this 3-year-old girl has not been brainwashed, but rather read the Qu'ran and came to this decision?

she was brainwashed- as a large percentage of 1.2 billion Muslims have been. Not by Osama Bin Laden or some other leader- but by her parents.

[Chilly]

No doubt she was brainwashed.

 

Then again she could have easily come to the same conclusion by living her life by the same standards as Mohammed. A religion is as good/bad as the founder, and Mohammed was a bad guy.

 

Sure, he was 'peaceful' at first, but as he went on and consolidated power, he became much more violent and less tolerant of those who disagreed with him. He had people murdered, beheaded, and showed contempt and disrespect to other religious beliefs, most notably Jews and Hindus.

 

I don't know how his actions can be seperated from the religion he created.

 

It definitely works for Christianity to say that you are not able to separate the founder's actions from the religion they created, as the Bible suggests to one to model themselves after the founder.

 

However, the Qur'an goes out of its way to specify Muhammad is nothing more than a prophet, and lays out the groundwork/rules for living.

 

Besides, the overwhelmingly more important thing is how the follows act and believe, not what the founder did.

 

she was brainwashed- as a large percentage of 1.2 billion Muslims have been.

 

Back that statement up.

 

but by her parents.

 

You need to keep going to find the source of extremist strains of thought.

[yall]

It definitely works for Christianity to say that you are not able to separate the founder's actions from the religion they created, as the Bible suggests to one to model themselves after the founder.

 

However, the Qur'an goes out of its way to specify Muhammad is nothing more than a prophet, and lays out the groundwork/rules for living.

 

Finally - thanks for addressing the argument at hand BF. Too many people just respond with "islam bad" when you try to have a rational dialogue about this.

 

I can't say anything about the Koran specifying what you have said, but I will definitely do more research. If that truly is the case, I may need to re-think my opinion on Islam.

[Pete]

Back that statement up.

Nick Berg. Daniel Pearl.

 

1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.

1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.

1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.

1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.

1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.

2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.

2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.

2001 (Dec.): Man tried to denote shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.

2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 11 German tourists.

2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.

2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.

2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing 1.

2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.

2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.

2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

2003 (May): 4 bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.

2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.

2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, housing compound, killing 17.

2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked 2 synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.

2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.

2004 (March): 10 bombs on 4 trains exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 and injuring more than 1,500.

2004 (May): Terrorists attacked Saudi oil company offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, killing 22.

2004 (June): Terrorists kidnapped and executed American Paul Johnson, Jr., in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

2004 (Sept.): Car bomb outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, killed 9.

2004 (Dec.): Terrorists entered the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 9 (including 4 attackers).

2005 (July): Bombs exploded on 3 trains and a bus in London, England, killing 52.

2005 (Oct.): 22 killed by 3 suicide bombs in Bali, Indonesia.

2005 (Nov.): 57 killed at 3 American hotels in Amman, Jordan.

2006 (Jan.): Two suicide bombers carrying police badges blow themselves up near a celebration at the Police Academy in Baghdad, killing nearly 20 police officers. Al-Qaeda in Iraq takes responsibility.

2006 (Aug.): Police arrest 24 British-born Muslims, most of whom have ties to Pakistan, who had allegedly plotted to blow up as many as 10 planes using liquid explosives. Officials say details of the plan were similar to other schemes devised by al-Qaeda.

2007 (April): Suicide bombers attack a government building in Algeria's capital, Algiers, killing 35 and wounding hundreds more. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb claims responsibility.

2007 (April): Eight people, including two Iraqi legislators, die when a suicide bomber strikes inside the Parliament building in Baghdad. An organization that includes al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia claims responsibility. In another attack, the Sarafiya Bridge that spans the Tigris River is destroyed.

2007 (June): British police find car bombs in two vehicles in London. The attackers reportedly tried to detonate the bombs using cell phones but failed. Government officials say al-Qaeda is linked to the attempted attack. The following day, an SUV carrying bombs bursts into flames after it slams into an entrance to Glasgow Airport. Officials say the attacks are connected.

2007 (December): As many as 60 people are killed in two suicide attacks near United Nations offices and government buildings in Algiers, Algeria. The bombings occur within minutes of each other. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, formerly called the Salafist Group for Preaching, claims responsibility. It's the worst attack in the Algeria in more than 10 years.

[Chilly]

List of terror attacks...

 

Figured you couldn't do it.

[Pete]

Figured you couldn't do it.

huh? I said it is a movement and not led by a leader. Radical Muslim terrorists work independently from one another for the most part

[Chilly]

huh? I said it is a movement and not led by a leader. Radical Muslim terrorists work independently from one another for the most part

 

A list of 36 names/attacks is not proof of a "large percentage" of anything.

[erynthered]

Figured you couldn't do it.

 

 

Its a couple of years old. But a decent read that may answer your question.

 

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/65537

[Wacka]

If it is only 3 % of the Muslims that are radicals, then why dont't the other 97% do something to stop them?

 

Like I said before , and will continue to repeat until the idiots with their heads in the sand realize:

These Islamofascists will not stop until they are wiped out. They will continue to attack until all the infidels (non-muslims) are wiped out. Then they will turn on other muslims that do not believe in the same way they do.

 

You will not be able to talk things out with them.

[Chilly]

Its a couple of years old. But a decent read that may answer your question.

 

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/65537

 

I'm not buying that article. He tries to select a pool of candidates, and then says "1 in 100" without giving any justification or research backing that up, outside of saying that he's done some.

 

Other things seem worded to mislead on purpose, which make me believe that this isn't a fair-handed look at the matter:

 

For example, the fundamentalist Islamic group Hamas received 65% of the popular vote in "Palestine." The somewhat secular Fatah, at least by comparison to Hamas, won only 30% of the votes.

 

The final popular vote was 44%-42% throughout the entire election.

 

He won a landslide victory in 2002 - and Turkey is considered to be the most moderate Islamic state.

 

This landslide victory was made up of a 34% popular vote for the party that the candidate runs.

 

The newly elected fundamentalist Islamic nutcase ruling Iran, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, earned 62% of the popular vote. The most moderate Islamic challenger garnered less than twenty percent support.

 

In the first round, the one he is referring to, Ahmadinejad also garnered less than twenty percent of the support.

 

Opinion polls taken by the British Government reveal that 70% of Iraqis think killing Americans is justified, something that is impossible to justify outside the conditioning of fundamentalist Islam. The rising death toll of American troops and stunning escalation in terror in Iraq give credence to those numbers.

 

It is? Attacks on an invading force is impossible to justify outside of religion? WTF.

[Chilly]

If it is only 3 % of the Muslims that are radicals, then why dont't the other 97% do something to stop them?

 

Do what, exactly?

 

Like I said before , and will continue to repeat until the idiots with their heads in the sand realize:

These Islamofascists will not stop until they are wiped out. They will continue to attack until all the infidels (non-muslims) are wiped out. Then they will turn on other muslims that do not believe in the same way they do.

 

You will not be able to talk things out with them.

 

You need to address the root causes of terrorism in order to wipe it out, not just the people who are currently using it.