95altima1 Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 DJ said in the after game interview that teh players called the first time out because of the play clock and then he desided to throw the flag. It that true? anyone catch that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills Fan888 Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 I didn't catch it but I'm sure It was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Here's my question -- WHY didn't any Bills' coach know the "toe-heel" rule? If they did, there would be no earthly reason to challenge the play, because you can't challenge the judgment call of being pushed OB. Stupid play all around. The refs blew the push-out call, and then the Bills blew the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBob2232 Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Here's my question -- WHY didn't any Bills' coach know the "toe-heel" rule? If they did, there would be no earthly reason to challenge the play, because you can't challenge the judgment call of being pushed OB. Stupid play all around. The refs blew the push-out call, and then the Bills blew the challenge. 856020[/snapback] More to the point, why is there a toe-heel rule? If he was facing the other way, all he needed to get in was his toes. Its a stupid rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 More to the point, why is there a toe-heel rule? If he was facing the other way, all he needed to get in was his toes. Its a stupid rule. 856039[/snapback] Yours is a debate for the offseason, with the competition committee. I happen to agree with you, but that's not the point. The Bills' coaching staff should know the rule, and it was a stupid challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2003Contenders Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 In the PC, Jauron said that the first timeout was taken because the playclock was down to 1 second. He said that the officials did tell him about the toe-heel rule -- and in hind-sight he probably should not have challenged it. However, he thought it was worth the the risk, since he thought that there may have been a long enough pause between the toe and the heel touching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 In the PC, Jauron said that the first timeout was taken because the playclock was down to 1 second. He said that the officials did tell him about the toe-heel rule -- and in hind-sight he probably should not have challenged it. However, he thought it was worth the the risk, since he thought that there may have been a long enough pause between the toe and the heel touching. 856073[/snapback] I like Jauron, but I have to say, that was one of the most blatantly horrible Bills coaching blunders in some time. If I have one complaint about DJ, it is his odd sense of when/when not to take risks. I guess I would have to see the rule in the NFL rule book, but I suspect it says nothing about how long of a pause there is between toe in bounds, and heel out of bounds, to diffentiate between a catch, or a catch out of bounds. If the officials told him about the toe-heel rule, and he still challanged, it was a bad gamble, and IMO, played a factor in sealing the win for the Chargers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasker Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 I don't think it was a stupid play to challenge. I think Dick should have thrown the red flag before JP called timeout, and at worse we would have used a single timeout for it. I also would have liked him to challenge the Hargrove fumble recovery. He doesn't have to win every challenge, but I think those are both ones where he has to grab the flag and chuck it. Twice he should have twice he didn't, and I would like to hear what he has to say when pressed on that. Not just carefully analyzing the play after the fact to see if the challenge would have been won, but at the moment they happen those are both plays to challenge, Bellicheck and Parcels and Shanahan and Holmgen would have all thrown the flag on both. I really like Dick, but he came up short on that decision making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 I don't think it was a stupid play to challenge. I think Dick should have thrown the red flag before JP called timeout, and at worse we would have used a single timeout for it. I also would have liked him to challenge the Hargrove fumble recovery. He doesn't have to win every challenge, but I think those are both ones where he has to grab the flag and chuck it. Twice he should have twice he didn't, and I would like to hear what he has to say when pressed on that. Not just carefully analyzing the play after the fact to see if the challenge would have been won, but at the moment they happen those are both plays to challenge, Bellicheck and Parcels and Shanahan and Holmgen would have all thrown the flag on both. I really like Dick, but he came up short on that decision making. 856140[/snapback] I completely agree. I have no problem with him challanging the Price toe/heel ruling (I thought it was a good catch too), but to challange it, after you have already wasted a timeout on the same play, and the official (he says) reminded him of the toe/heel rule (I have never heard of this rule until today), the conservative part of his persona has to come to his senses, and realize the situation he is in. The officials are not going to change the call, particularly if they are reminding of you of the finer parts of their ruling. Knowing that you have only, now, one timeout left, in a game that was still there, to be won, DJ would have been much better served keeping that challange to himself. It was too big a risk, IMO. I know Bellecheck, Parcells and Shanahan would have challanged the ruling in ordinary circumstances, but this was not an ordianary circumstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 The fact that it was a big enough play coupled with the fact that the refs so frequently make up rules as they go equates to a not-bad challenge IMO. Still inexcusable to burn the time out beforehand; though it's actual impact was negligable to the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 From what I recall that was the second time the Bills used two time outs on one play. As I recall, the same thing happened either in the MM or GW era. They called TO, then after the TO, challanged and also lost the challange. At least they have experience with this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 The fact that it was a big enough play coupled with the fact that the refs so frequently make up rules as they go equates to a not-bad challenge IMO. Still inexcusable to burn the time out beforehand; though it's actual impact was negligable to the outcome. 856181[/snapback] You are missing my point. To challange the ruling on the catch was not a bad challange, under normal circumstances. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that. You are right, it was a big play. However, according to DJ, the official told him about the heel being out of bounds. Now, this is a one score game at this point. The Bills have just wasted a timeout. Jauron has been told by the official that the heel was out of bounds. At that point, he, or someone on his staff, has to ask, is it worth minimizing what remaining chance you have to win this game, on a play that is likely not going to be overturned, when you had an eternity to make a decision? I am not sure how you can say its' impact was negligable. There really isn't a way of knowing that. Had the the Chargers had the exact same 8 minute drive, to go up by 10, and the Bills gotten the ball back with the same amount of time on the clock, being able to stop the clock once, could have changed the whole course of the Price td drive. It may not have made a difference, nobody can really know that. I do think, though, you can be sure that it was a pretty bad error in judgement, at that point in the game, under the circumstances (already having burned a timeout), to challange. The point was made that Belichick, Parcells, etc etc would have made the same decision. I really don't think they would have in the same circumstance. I seem to recall, very recently, during the last Patriots prime-time game, Belichick refrained from a challange (which looked on tv to be a good challange), because the risk of losing a timeout, at that point of the game was too great. Imagine if it meant wasting two...these are the kinds of mistakes that are easier to minimize when you win, not when you lose a pretty close game. In the end, maybe it was no big deal, the Bills weren't supposed to have a chance of beating the Chargers. But, they gave it a good go. Despite giving up too much yardage, the defense did make some stops...it would have been nice to maximize the chance of pulling off a great upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 You are missing my point. To challange the ruling on the catch was not a bad challange, under normal circumstances. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that. You are right, it was a big play. However, according to DJ, the official told him about the heel being out of bounds. Now, this is a one score game at this point. The Bills have just wasted a timeout. Jauron has been told by the official that the heel was out of bounds. At that point, he, or someone on his staff, has to ask, is it worth minimizing what remaining chance you have to win this game, on a play that is likely not going to be overturned, when you had an eternity to make a decision? I am not sure how you can say its' impact was negligable. There really isn't a way of knowing that. Had the the Chargers had the exact same 8 minute drive, to go up by 10, and the Bills gotten the ball back with the same amount of time on the clock, being able to stop the clock once, could have changed the whole course of the Price td drive. It may not have made a difference, nobody can really know that. I do think, though, you can be sure that it was a pretty bad error in judgement, at that point in the game, under the circumstances (already having burned a timeout), to challange. The point was made that Belichick, Parcells, etc etc would have made the same decision. I really don't think they would have in the same circumstance. I seem to recall, very recently, during the last Patriots prime-time game, Belichick refrained from a challange (which looked on tv to be a good challange), because the risk of losing a timeout, at that point of the game was too great. Imagine if it meant wasting two...these are the kinds of mistakes that are easier to minimize when you win, not when you lose a pretty close game. In the end, maybe it was no big deal, the Bills weren't supposed to have a chance of beating the Chargers. But, they gave it a good go. Despite giving up too much yardage, the defense did make some stops...it would have been nice to maximize the chance of pulling off a great upset. 856258[/snapback] "Change the whole course of the Price TD drive" - there is a 0% chance JP throws fewer checkdowns to A-train because there is more time on the clock. Obviously the first time out was stupid and the coach should take the blame for that even if he didn't call it. Once that's done though, I don't think the fact that they already burned one makes a play go from challengable to unchallangable. The difference between 0 time outs and 1 time out isn't drastically greater than the difference between 1 time out and 2 time outs. As far as what the ref told Jauron - none of us know the exact content of the exchange; and even if we did I don't have enough fingers to count the number of dumb replay review decisions I've seen from refs in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 "Change the whole course of the Price TD drive" - there is a 0% chance JP throws fewer checkdowns to A-train because there is more time on the clock. Obviously the first time out was stupid and the coach should take the blame for that even if he didn't call it. Once that's done though, I don't think the fact that they already burned one makes a play go from challengable to unchallangable. The difference between 0 time outs and 1 time out isn't drastically greater than the difference between 1 time out and 2 time outs. As far as what the ref told Jauron - none of us know the exact content of the exchange; and even if we did I don't have enough fingers to count the number of dumb replay review decisions I've seen from refs in the NFL. 856281[/snapback] Jauron said, in his PC, the ref had told him about Prices' heel being out, before he challanged, reminded him of the rule, but DJ (or whoever helps him make these decisions) thought that Price had his toe in bounds long enough, before his heel went out, to constitute a catch. The fact that I still think it should have been a good catch, and most rational people would think so, is trumped by the fact that the ref is telling you beforehand, how he will interprit the rule... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 The refs blew . 856020[/snapback] Same as it ever was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 I like Jauron, but I have to say, that was one of the most blatantly horrible Bills coaching blunders in some time. If I have one complaint about DJ, it is his odd sense of when/when not to take risks. I guess I would have to see the rule in the NFL rule book, but I suspect it says nothing about how long of a pause there is between toe in bounds, and heel out of bounds, to diffentiate between a catch, or a catch out of bounds. If the officials told him about the toe-heel rule, and he still challanged, it was a bad gamble, and IMO, played a factor in sealing the win for the Chargers. 856132[/snapback] but price was pushed out of bounds!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 More to the point, why is there a toe-heel rule? If he was facing the other way, all he needed to get in was his toes. Its a stupid rule. 856039[/snapback] Lets assume he was facing the other way. If a reciever gets one foot down in bounds, and then his other heel lands inbounds before his toes land on the chalk, is that considered a catch? No. Its the same situation, it happens all the time, and its any easy, correct call by the official in both instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marauderswr80 Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Yes you can challenge the push out of bounds call.......Look at the Jags game a few years ago when Wilford caught that pass and was knocked out they reviewed the play to see if he was pushed out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Yes you can challenge the push out of bounds call.......Look at the Jags game a few years ago when Wilford caught that pass and was knocked out they reviewed the play to see if he was pushed out! 856643[/snapback] IIRC, the officials reviewed that, neither the Bills or the Jags would have been able to, because it was in the final two minutes of the game. Even it had not been, neither team could have challanged it anyway, because it is a judgement call. Only way a "judgement call" is reviewed, is if the officials initiate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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