JP vs Eli

[daquixers_is_back]

just to further my stance home about Barber.

 

First player in NFL history with 1,800 rushing yards and 500 receiving yards in one season

In 2005, Barber became one of three players in NFL history with at least three 200-yard rushing games in a season (O.J. Simpson had three in 1973 and Earl Campbell ran for at least 200 yards four times in 1980)

818219[/snapback]

 

That has nothing to do with being the best back in the NFL ... did you choose to ignore my entire long post?: Look above.

[bartshan-83]

I understand your point about Holmes.

 

You entitled to your opinion. Just like we all are. 

818235[/snapback]

No doubt, it's just my opinion. It just puzzles me that you rarely hear Tiki mentioned (until maybe just recently) among the league's elite backs. Edge, LT, Priest, Alexander and now LJ are all thrown out there. He deserves better.

[Dibs]

Comparing Losman to Manning is a joke. They're not even close.

818109[/snapback]

Do you say that because Eli has the extra playing years experience, was better prepared straight out of college & has had an overall better talent level in those around him(mainly OL) & it would be obviously unfair to compare the two QBs as of this point?.....or.......do you say that because Eli is the better QB as of right now?

 

I'm gonna compare them anyway.

 

1st starting year....(Eli played 9 started 7...JP played 9 started 8)

Eli...197-95-1043-6td-9int...55.4QBR

JP...228-113-1340-8td-8int...64.9QBR

 

2nd starting year....(Eli started 16....JP has started 7 so far)

Eli...294-557-3762-24td-17int...75.9QBR

JP...197-122-1313-6td-6int...78.9QBR

 

Yes, we need JP to keep improving, but I'd say all things considered he has certainly done enough to deserve at least the rest of the season.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

That has nothing to do with being the best back in the NFL ... did you choose to ignore my entire long post?: Look above.

818237[/snapback]

 

No I didn't ignore it. It was a good post, I just have to chalk it up to my opinion, like I said in an earlier post Barber reminds me a lot of thurman. Neither of them scored a lot of tds, but they were both tough runners, more so then given credit for, and great catching the ball out of the backfield. Barbers had 4 exceptionaly good seasons and cut down on his fumbles big time. The td thing is a really strong case, which there isn't an argument for. Other then tomlinson/holmes/alexander getting goalline carries and barber not so much. I guess I'm putting more credence on the whole yards from scrimmage thing so I'm not going to hold the td's against barber cause overall I think he stacks up great against guys like tomlinson, alexander, holmes etc etc and it comes down to matter of opinion and I'd take Barber over any of them.

[daquixers_is_back]

Do you say that because Eli has the extra playing years experience, was better prepared straight out of college & has had an overall better talent level in those around him(mainly OL) & it would be obviously unfair to compare the two QBs as of this point?.....or.......do you say that because Eli is the better QB as of right now?

 

I'm gonna compare them anyway.

 

1st starting year....(Eli played 9 started 7...JP played 9 started 8)

Eli...197-95-1043-6td-9int...55.4QBR

JP...228-113-1340-8td-8int...64.9QBR

 

2nd starting year....(Eli started 16....JP has started 7 so far)

Eli...294-557-3762-24td-17int...75.9QBR

JP...197-122-1313-6td-6int...78.9QBR

 

Yes, we need JP to keep improving, but I'd say all things considered he has certainly done enough to deserve at least the rest of the season.

818255[/snapback]

 

Look at JP and Eli both through 15 starts (I did it in an earlier page) ... Eli' has much better stats.

 

 

No I didn't ignore it.  It was a good post, I just have to chalk it up to my opinion, like I said in an earlier post Barber reminds me a lot of thurman.  Neither of them scored a lot of tds, but they were both tough runners, more so then given credit for, and great catching the ball out of the backfield.  Barbers had 4 exceptionaly good seasons and cut down on his fumbles big time. The td thing is a really strong case, which there isn't an argument for. Other then tomlinson/holmes/alexander getting goalline carries and barber not so much.  I guess I'm putting more credence on the whole yards from scrimmage thing so I'm not going to hold the td's against barber cause overall I think he stacks up great against guys like tomlinson, alexander, holmes etc etc and it comes down to matter of opinion and I'd take Barber over any of them.

818257[/snapback]

 

Ok. Good deal.

[Dibs]

Look at JP and Eli both through 15 starts (I did it in an earlier page) ... Eli' has much better stats.

818260[/snapback]

I saw but I thought to firstly show their quite comparable '1st year playing stats' would add to the discussion.

Also, the rest of Mannings full 1st year starter stats started to drop after game 7....in fact game 8(his 16th start) his stats were 48-23-291-1td-4int....39.5QBR.

 

To show that in his first full year as a starter(which will be JPs 'this year'), he only achieved a 75.9QBR puts things into a little bit more perspective that perhaps too many on this board are expecting too much from JP at this stage in his career.

[MDH]

LT is certainly dynamic and Alexander is a great workhorse runner.  But I'd take Tiki over both of them right now and his numbers for the past three years back that up.

818215[/snapback]

 

The numbers don't really back it up. LT, when healthy, puts up better numbers than Tiki. LT played the last 5 games in 2005 with an injury (an unspecified chest injury) that severely limited his production (which KILLED me in FF, but I digress). He also had a groin injury for half of 2004 but being the gamer he is he missed only 1 game.

 

Now, the argument could be made that Barber is more durable than LT. However, if you look at the numbers you'll see it's incredibly close in both rushing yards and receiving yards. What this tells me is that even playing the past 2 years with various injuries (for a total of 13-14 games) that LT puts up numbers that are almost identical to Barber for the past 3 years.

 

I'll take a healthy LT over Barber any day.

[1billsfan]

Cantakerous is right ... you just cant compare them. JP is not in Eli's league yet. Manning through 16 games and JP through 16 games is a world of difference

818137[/snapback]

 

I love it when a fan states something that's a complete exageration, yet has absolutely nothing to back it up with. I guess saying it makes it so.

 

At this time last season Eli sucked just as many times as JP has sucked so far this season. Numbers don't lie. The world of difference was that Manning had competent players surrounding him. But this fact is apparently lost on both you and Cantakerous.

[ganesh]

Presence and strength?     

818056[/snapback]

 

He was talking about the presence of his dad Archie in the stands and the combined strength of the Manning family that was watching the game

[Prince Far I]

The jokes on you. JP compares very favorably to where Eli was at the same point last season. Sorry to burst your "not even close" notion. JP never had a lifetime of an all-pro father and brother helping him learn the ropes of the NFL, nor does he have the quality players that Eli had around him in 2005. Yet he still has managed to put up similar numbers to Eli. But hey, you've obviously jumped off the Losman bandwagon so I guess there's no use arguing with someone like you who's already given up on the guy.

818131[/snapback]

 

If poor JP has never had any of these advantages, why is he in the NFL?

 

This isn't a charity where we can say "the poor kid, he's overcome so much etc.."

 

And people can laugh at what I wrote about Eli Manning's presence. It was apparent to this viewer and you can see how he has developed.

 

I remember hearing similar comments about Rob johnson - "his line isn't strong enough", the coaching staff isn't nurturing him properly and on and on. But you could see that he was never going to be good.

 

I WANT the kid to succeed. But I just don't think it's going to happen.

[Gordio]

I dont know if losman is going to work or not but what has he done to indicate he has the tools to succeed. He is not very accurate, he doesnt have great pocket presence, & he makes bad decisions. Im willing to give him this year, but I will say this, I think he has to really impress levy & the boys to be on this team next year.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Some of you guys sound like morons comparing JP's stats to some other QB's stats and using that to say JP has played as good, or even as bad.

 

Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.

 

How long have you guys been Bills fans?? 5 years?? You dont remember Rob Johnson posting 30 touchdowns with only 19 interceptions, and a marvelous 86 QB rating while in Buffalo?

 

Can we cut the BS now and actually look at the player? Looking at the player, you can see the guy is dazed and confused.

[Prince Far I]

Amen to that.

 

(Sadly)

[daquixers_is_back]

Some of you guys sound like morons comparing JP's stats to some other QB's stats and using that to say JP has played as good, or even as bad.

 

Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.

 

How long have you guys been Bills fans?? 5 years?? You dont remember Rob Johnson posting 30 touchdowns with only 19 interceptions, and a marvelous 86 QB rating while in Buffalo?

 

Can we cut the BS now and actually look at the player?  Looking at the player, you can see the guy is dazed and confused.

818617[/snapback]

 

Speaking of Rob Johnson ... when you look at his 2001 game log, they seem a lot like JP's

 

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1033/gamelogs/2001

 

A game with 3 INT's and 0 TD's a few games with 1 TD and 1 INt .. etc

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

Manning- 5-2

 

Losman- 2-5

 

Manning finds a way to get it done.

817799[/snapback]

 

yup!

[/dev/null]

Looking at the player, you can see the guy is dazed and confused.

818617[/snapback]

 

But there's no arguing that he's progressed! I mean he used to be alot more dazed and confused

[ExiledInIllinois]

Comparing Losman to Manning is a joke. They're not even close.

818109[/snapback]

 

 

Exactly...

 

Reminds me of the old Ford commercials in the 1970's comparing a Ford Granada to a Mercedes Benz...

 

Sure they both get you down the road, but they are worlds apart... One finds you down that road dead... Found On Road Dead...

 

You really do get what you pay for... You can do all the turd polishing you want, it is still a turd...

 

[Dibs]

....You can do all the turd polishing you want, it is still a turd...

818896[/snapback]

For me, this sums up the debate.

JP detractors are calling JP a turd & that he cannot be polished......therefore???? Dump him?

JP defenders(or at least the moderate ones) are saying...."Wait a minute, let's see how the year progresses before we 'determined' that he is unpolishable....i.e. a turd." They are not saying he is good.....they are not even saying he is going to be good.....they are simply saying that just as it would be wrong to call him decent at this point it would also be wrong to call him a turd.

 

There is a big difference between these two statements.....

"I don't think JP is going to be any good....but I hope he does make it."

"JP will never be any good."

[BADOLBILZ]

Before you continue reading please understand that I DO LIKE JP!

 

BUT ...

 

When you watch a Bills game and then watch a Giants game, you will just see something different in ELI than you do in JP. When I watch Eli play its like even though he makes a bad throw you know he is a good QB. You have confidence in him to bounce back. He has that confidence in the pocket and has progressed RAPIDLY. He stays back in the pocket and GETS IT DONE. Period. His stats show this well. You cant argue 13 TD's, and 8 INT's for a 90+ QB rating.

 

His line isnt the best either. They are good run blockers, but often break down when trying to stop the pass rush. Through 6 games Eli is on pace to have about 35 sacks this year. To put that into perspective, Drew Bledsoe through 6 games was on pace to have about 43. Eli also seems to throw the ball away instead of getting sacked. Something JP hasnt mastered yet.

 

People will then begin to say that Losman has only started 15 games ... that means he shouldnt be on Eli's level yet. Well ... through 15 games Eli has 20 TD's, and 14 interceptions. JP? He has 12 Touchdowns and 14 interceptions.

 

As much as I WANT to be a JP homer ... I just cant. Eli is the better QB.

817904[/snapback]

 

If you told me two years ago people would be trying to compare JP to Eli Manning, I wouldn't believe it. Eli is half natural QB, half refined product. That guy was a sure thing. And he still isn't that good yet.

 

Losman is anything but a natural, he's just a great athlete who is actually showing the ability to become a very good QB in time. It's going to take a lot more time for a guy like Losman to find his NFL game than a guy like Manning, but when he does he has the ability to be a big star. He'll never be a Manning or Brady, but he might become a Steve McNair or even a Donovan McNabb. I don't really feel like waiting for Losman to get there, I actually left the game shortly after halftime last week because I couldn't watch Losman(and the entire team and coaching staff) get schooled any longer. But when your team is at rock bottom, and this team is, sooner or later you have to bite the bullet and show some patience with a talented young QB.

[1billsfan]

 

 

Exactly...

 

Reminds me of the old Ford commercials in the 1970's comparing a Ford Granada to a Mercedes Benz...  

 

Sure they both get you down the road, but they are worlds apart... One finds you down that road dead... Found On Road Dead...

 

You really do get what you pay for... You can do all the turd polishing you want, it is still a turd...

 

818896[/snapback]

 

When you start comparing players to "turds" it's time to stop watching or go root for another team. I've never seen any indication that Losman was not giving it his best effort. For this you compare him to a turd? That's just embarrassing.