What happens to us if Cutler goes first?

[BoondckCL]

oh please--of course YOUNG has more promise. The guy is a winner---almost singlehandedly won the national championship game.In my book that shows TONS of promise. The guy has great football instincts--and played real football--not Tulane football.--That being said--I havent given up on JP.

617003[/snapback]

 

Wow that is possibly some of the dumbest sh*t i have ever heard. With the exception of the Losman comment.

 

1. Young has a weak arm and if you have a weak arm in the NFL, you are not going to have success.

 

2. In case you weren't paying attention in the naitonal championship game, Young did not throw one touchdown all game. He is Michael Vick with a weaker arm.

 

3. "The guy has great football instincts", so you have anylized the game film of all of his games and came to this conclusion with your expert opinion. The fact that you are buying into the hype of another African American quarterback just shows your lack of football knowledge.

 

4. He has the I.Q. of a state worker!

 

5. Big 12 football the best? Just because Miami and Florida State had off years, does not mean that Young was not beating up on a bunch of farm boys from Nebraska or Oklahoma.

 

6. I was just thinking about this question for those of you who think the Bills should trade up. When was the last time Buffalo traded up in the first round? This is not Madden football people!

 

7. Atleast you haven't given up on Losman. That's more than i can say for a lot of people on this website. I think you dumb @$$e$ need to stop being so retarded. It makes you sound ignorant, mainly because Losman played, what, 8 games.

[PromoTheRobot]

oh please--of course YOUNG has more promise. The guy is a winner---almost singlehandedly won the national championship game.In my book that shows TONS of promise. The guy has great football instincts--and played real football--not Tulane football.--That being said--I havent given up on JP.

617003[/snapback]

Young looked great...against college defenses. How will he do vs the NFL? Think of every run-n-gun style of QB who tore it up in college. Has anyone been a huge success inthe NFL? No. Why? Because the stuff they could do against defenders who are now selling insurance, you can't do against an NFL defense.

 

PTR

[Orton's Arm]

7. Atleast you haven't given up on Losman. That's more than i can say for a lot of people on this website.

617036[/snapback]

What?! People have given up on Losman?!

[Buckeye Eric]

I see no scenerio in which the Bills draft a QB in the first 3 or 4 rounds.

[Spiderweb]

http://nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/9269708

 

Just wondering. How would that affect us. Seriously Im getting tired about people insisting we MUST only take a DT/OL. The board has not had a correct consensus on who we would pick in recent memory. Couple of questions:

 

1-would you be willing to trade up for Young? he's raw but has much more promise that Losman

 

2-Should we really risk taking another high pick OL?

 

3-Ngata is good. How does he stack up to other DTs in recent memory?

612659[/snapback]

 

Trade up for Young? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

[JDG]

I see no scenerio in which the Bills draft a QB in the first 3 or 4 rounds.

617388[/snapback]

 

How about JP Losman blowing out his knee in a pick-up basketball game next week? ;-)

 

Or a little less fanciful, how about Jauron and Levy watching both practice film and game film of Losman and deciding that "we think with about 95% confidence that Losman just doesn't have it"? And while maybe not using the #8 pick on Losman, using the 3rd or 4th rounder on him?

 

JDG

[PromoTheRobot]

How about JP Losman blowing out his knee in a pick-up basketball game next week?  ;-)

 

Or a little less fanciful, how about Jauron and Levy watching both practice film and game film of Losman and deciding that "we think with about 95% confidence that Losman just doesn't have it"?  And while maybe not using the #8 pick on Losman, using the 3rd or 4th rounder on him?

 

JDG

617420[/snapback]

Only if they are as dumb as some of the poster here.

 

C'mon. If JP played 9 games and completed zero passes, and got sacked 89 times, then you can say he doesn't have it. But they guy showed me some flashes of brilliance. Did he miss receivers? Did he throw int's? What QB in his first year hasn't? (see: Elway, Manning, Brees)

 

PTR

[JDG]

Did he miss receivers?  Did he throw int's?  What QB in his first year hasn't?  (see: Elway, Manning, Brees)

 

Did he miss receivers? You betcha. Try to the tune of a 49.6% completion percentage.

 

In Drew Brees' second season (he rode the bench as a rookie) he completed just under 61% of his passes, followed by just under 58% the next year.

 

Peyton Manning completed 57% as a rookie, and has been above 62% ever since.

 

So, the only comparison you really have is to John Elway, who completed 47.5% of passes as a rookie - albeit for a different team than the one that drafted him. By Elway's second year, though, that completion percentage was up to 56%.

 

Nevertheless, Bills fans are kidding themselves if they think that Losman's performance last year was typical for any 1st/2nd year QB in the NFL. That just plain isn't true. Indeed, there is a very small group of NFL QB's who performed comparably badly in the first NFL starts and then went on to a Pro Bowl for the same team.

 

JDG

[tennesseeboy]

Simply put you have to look at the team and ascertain weak points and strong points. Where there is a GLARING weak point (Defensive Tackle, Offensive Tackle) you should give serious thought to addressing it. Hence most people (I think) are looking at Ngata and some offensive linemen as where we should go. I also think there won't be much around at 8 worth deviating from that idea (If Reggie Bush dropped down to 8, I'd think seriously about deviating.) If we didn't address the line needs we would not go anywhere. It is as simple as that.

[Orton's Arm]

In Drew Brees' second season (he rode the bench as a rookie) he completed just under 61% of his passes, followed by just under 58% the next year.

617618[/snapback]

It makes a lot more sense to compare Losman to Brees--which you've done--than to compare him to Eli Manning. We still don't know how good Eli Manning will turn out to be. In any case, it's easier if you spend your first year on the bench, because that gives you a chance to learn the playbook before being thrown to the wolves. Eli Manning didn't have that, while Losman and Brees did.

[ndirish1978]

Im intrigued. tell me just when did Losman show "flashes of brilliance?" I've seen him make decent plays, nothing that has knocked my socks off. Or it it brilliant when he does his job and completes a pass?

[Chilly]

Wow that is possibly some of the dumbest sh*t i have ever heard. With the exception of the Losman comment.

 

1. Young has a weak arm and if you have a weak arm in the NFL, you are not going to have success.

 

2. In case you weren't paying attention in the naitonal championship game, Young did not throw one touchdown all game. He is Michael Vick with a weaker arm.

 

 

Wow that is possibly some of the dumbest sh*t i have ever heard. With the exception of the Losman comment. School is in session, listen to me teach you and study up.

 

1.) Young has a weak arm? Puh-leeze. He has accuracy problems, much like Losman, but his arm strength is fine. I've seen him throw it 60+ yards no problem and made it look easy when competing passes. He also has good zip on the ball when he throws it in short/medium routes. You must not have watched him throughout his career in Austin, but rather just seen one or two games.

 

2.) Lets take a look at a couple different things before you make dumbass comments.

 

First of all, he had 267 yards passing, and completed 30 of 40 passes. Thats right, he had a 75% completion percentage against the "greatest team in the history of college football". Yeah, he might not have had a passing touchdown, but he was an extremely efficient passer and got the job done.

 

3. "The guy has great football instincts", so you have anylized the game film of all of his games and came to this conclusion with your expert opinion. The fact that you are buying into the hype of another African American quarterback just shows your lack of football knowledge.

 

Wow, you are actually saying people like Vince Young because he's black? You know how freaking racist and retarded that is?

 

The dude DOES have great football instincts, and he only gets better year after year with his decision making. There have been quotes from Texas players every year talking about how good his decision making was, and that its a real asset for the team.

 

He's was THE most efficient passer in college football last year, and he singlehandedly willed his team to the national championship. If you don't think thats good football instincts, I don't know what the hell you think is.

 

Not to mention he had 267 passing yards, 200 rushing yards, and 3 touchdowns. Yeah, thats really bad football instincts.

 

4. He has the I.Q. of a state worker! 

 

Right, because a 16 on the Wonderlic means that he has a tiny I.Q. Lets look at the facts. First, a quote from the Houston Chronicle from a few days ago:

 

"I've seen players test in single digits and play 10 years, and I've seen some guys test in the 30s that couldn't walk across the street," said Reese, who has been in the NFL since 1975.

 

So the Wonderlic, while it is just ONE way to test for the ability to make decisions, it isn't THE way to test for the ability to make decisions.

 

Let's take a look at some of the quarterbacks over the years that have scored a 16 or less on one of their accurate attempts, like apparently Vince Young did

 

(these statistics courtesy of http://www.unc.edu/~mirabile/Wonderlic.htm)

 

Losman, J.P.

Culpepper, Daunte

McNabb, Donovan

McNair, Steve

Cunningham, Randall

Marino, Dan

 

Now, let us take a look at some of the quarterbacks over the years that did exceptionally well by scoring a 30 or above on one of their accurate attempts:

 

Losman, J.P.

Bledsoe, Drew (who we all know makes extremely quick decisions)

Henson, Drew

Harrington, Joey

Brown, Travis

Smith, Akili

Griese, Brian

 

So yeah, this test must really measure whether someone is smart or stupid. Also, it is a pretty good indicator of how good someone will be on the football field.

 

5. Big 12 football the best? Just because Miami and Florida State had off years, does not mean that Young was not beating up on a bunch of farm boys from Nebraska or Oklahoma.

 

Yeah, because Oklahoma and Nebraska are just a bunch of farm boys.

 

Nevermind that the final top 25 rankings this year had 4 big 12 teams, and Texas had to beat USC and Ohio State in addition to the other 3 big 12 teams. Thats 5 top 25 teams, seems like a bunch of farm boys to me.

 

Class for today is now over. I hope you learned something here, and will stop being such a !@#$tard toward other people about their opinions, when yours are equally stupid.

[Sanners]

Actually, I flat out disagree with this conclusion.  Its actually very hard to disagree with this woulda/coulda/shoulda analysis because by definition when one starts with an assumption that past actions were different then it is virtually guaranteed the future would be different.

 

The problem with this proposition is that you simply assume that it would be different better than different worse in term of outcome.

 

However, in this case, if the thing you assume is different (the Bills draft Pennington in 2000) there is no reason to assume that anything whatsoever would be different about the Bills outcome in 2000 or 2001 for that matter.

 

The major even reasonably forseeable difference caused by your assumption is that the Bills would be without Flowers at DE. This change actually makes little difference in terms of the outcome of Bills play as essentially even having drafted Flowers he made no real contribution to the Bills.  The team lacked DE talent with Flowers and under your assumption the team would continue to lack DE talent.

 

On the other side with your assumption the team now has Pennington.  Well in real life for NYJ Pennington sat and learned for virtually all of two seasons before he took the field as a consistent starter for NYJ.  It appears more than reasonable that he he would have followed pretty much the same course of action if he had become a Bill.

 

In the 2000 season he would have sat on the bench as the disaster QB behind DF and RJ.  The Bills had already signed these two to contracts which locked up over $10 million in salary to these 2 QBs.  RWS had already engineered the lesser paid of these two multi-millionaires sitting against Indy and the Titans to play the richer of these two QBs, RJ.

 

In the 2001 season, TD's first Pennington in the AVP spot likely moves up to #2 QB when DF is a cap casualty and likely plays even sooner than he did as a Jet due to RJ being injury prone, but Pennington is actually the QB of a team in 2001 that was 3-13 because both the offense and the defense were horrendous.

 

IMHO, the major story for the failure of this squad was that we foolishly went to the GW TN D which was a 4-3 when switching from a 3-4 actually necessitated that we have more quality on the DL.  Having lost Big Ted and bruce as cap casualties, Wiley to FA and being about to see Hansen retire, this team and D failed because it was missing a DE of Jevon Kearse quality and put Raion Hill in to be Blaine Bishop and it did not work.  Add to that the unfortunate loss of Sam Cowart and the results would not have varied a ton likely with RJ, AVP, or Pennington at QB.

 

As far as the O went, we had lousy QB play, but a big problem that year was actually that we had Sheppard as OC and he would have been bad enough to deserve being canned regardles of which QB he was making worse.

 

The conclusion you reach that we would be much better with this single change ignores the fact that the single change you offer would not do anything at all to change the personnel on the D which was a large limiting factor on the results achieved by this team, and also it would do noting to change the overall lack of good guidance that GW and Sheppard provided for this team.

 

If you want, you can inject some theory that Pennington (who was not even the NYJ starter at this point in real life) would somehow have made the D better with his ball control of the O, AND would have made Sheppard an OC who did not get canned with time left on his contract, AND would have made GW a great offensive HC, but everybody would laugh.

616419[/snapback]

'

Pyrite Gal... Keep it coming... I would like to read more logical posts from this board. Fantastic response.

[Ghost of BiB]

If Cuter doesn't go first?

 

We're all going to die.

[Orton's Arm]

Class for today is now over.  I hope you learned something here, and will stop being such a !@#$tard toward other people about their opinions, when yours are equally stupid.

617872[/snapback]

You seem to know a lot about Vince Young; and I tend to agree with your assessment of the Wonderlic. Your accusation of racism was inappropriate though. But other than the mud being flung back and forth, your post had a lot to offer.

[Chilly]

You seem to know a lot about Vince Young; and I tend to agree with your assessment of the Wonderlic. Your accusation of racism was inappropriate though. But other than the mud being flung back and forth, your post had a lot to offer.

617924[/snapback]

 

Heh, I was just mad that he was talking crap to other people on the board, when he just registered in January.

[BoondckCL]

Wow that is possibly some of the dumbest sh*t i have ever heard. With the exception of the Losman comment.  School is in session, listen to me teach you and study up.

 

1.) Young has a weak arm?  Puh-leeze.  He has accuracy problems, much like Losman, but his arm strength is fine.  I've seen him throw it 60+ yards no problem and made it look easy when competing passes.  He also has good zip on the ball when he throws it in short/medium routes.  You must not have watched him throughout his career in Austin, but rather just seen one or two games. 

 

2.) Lets take a look at a couple different things before you make dumbass comments. 

 

First of all, he had 267 yards passing, and completed 30 of 40 passes.  Thats right, he had a 75% completion percentage against the "greatest team in the history of college football".  Yeah, he might not have had a passing touchdown, but he was an extremely efficient passer and got the job done.

Wow, you are actually saying people like Vince Young because he's black?  You know how freaking racist and retarded that is?

 

The dude DOES have great football instincts, and he only gets better year after year with his decision making.  There have been quotes from Texas players every year talking about how good his decision making was, and that its a real asset for the team.

 

He's was THE most efficient passer in college football last year, and he singlehandedly willed his team to the national championship.  If you don't think thats good football instincts, I don't know what the hell you think is.

 

Not to mention he had 267 passing yards, 200 rushing yards, and 3 touchdowns.  Yeah, thats really bad football instincts.

Right, because a 16 on the Wonderlic means that he has a tiny I.Q.  Lets look at the facts.  First, a quote from the Houston Chronicle from a few days ago:

So the Wonderlic, while it is just ONE way to test for the ability to make decisions, it isn't THE way to test for the ability to make decisions.

 

Let's take a look at some of the quarterbacks over the years that have scored a 16 or less on one of their accurate attempts, like apparently Vince Young did

 

(these statistics courtesy of http://www.unc.edu/~mirabile/Wonderlic.htm)

 

Losman, J.P.

Culpepper, Daunte

McNabb, Donovan

McNair, Steve

Cunningham, Randall

Marino, Dan

 

Now, let us take a look at some of the quarterbacks over the years that did exceptionally well by scoring a 30 or above on one of their accurate attempts:

 

Losman, J.P.

Bledsoe, Drew (who we all know makes extremely quick decisions)

Henson, Drew

Harrington, Joey

Brown, Travis

Smith, Akili

Griese, Brian

 

So yeah, this test must really measure whether someone is smart or stupid.  Also, it is a pretty good indicator of how good someone will be on the football field. 

Yeah, because Oklahoma and Nebraska are just a bunch of farm boys.

 

Nevermind that the final top 25 rankings this year had 4 big 12 teams, and Texas had to beat USC and Ohio State in addition to the other 3 big 12 teams.  Thats 5 top 25 teams, seems like a bunch of farm boys to me.   

 

Class for today is now over.  I hope you learned something here, and will stop being such a !@#$tard toward other people about their opinions, when yours are equally stupid.

617872[/snapback]

 

When Vince Young becomes a free agent a few years from now because the team that picks him finds out that he is a bust, i will laugh so hard.

 

What if i were to tell you i were "black", what would you have to say about that? Just the fact that you think i am white and making a comment like that is a racist comment. As to the idea that there is no favor towards african american quarterbacks - for those of us who wish to keep this politcally correct - and the NFL wanting them to succeed, just look at Michael Vick. Over reated.

 

Just so you know as to how the voting system works in college football, the media votes on the teams. The media, incase you don't watch ESPN or read any other newspapers, do not know a damn thing about sports.

 

Discussing the fact that the Big 12 is good, I point to the National Championship game between LSU and Oklahoma.

 

It is easy to be the most accurate quarterback in the Big 12 when you are throwing short passes to fast receivers.

 

Anybody can score a 16 on the Wonderlic test when they are taken aside and patted on the back, tutored, and given the same test again.

 

There is no doubt that Vince Young had a good performance in the National Championship game. But the fact of the matter is that before the game, Mel Kiper and draft experts were saying Young would not transfer well to the NFL very well. Now just because he rushes for three touchdowns against a USC team that was beaten by Notre Dame, does not mean that he is suddenly the best quarterback available.

 

In an NFL quarterback you want a guy who does not always run and has the ability to throw the ball deep, and be accurate. If you want Vince Young, you need to consider the idea of the winds in Ralph Wilson Stadium and ask yourself if Vince Young could hack it there. Example, the Arizona Cardinals game last year that i attended where the hail and ice were raining down sideways.

 

So it turns out that much like the public school system, your judgement and evaluation of the situation absolutely blows, because you're narrow minded and don't think of the possibility that there is a possibility of the NFL wanting a successful african american quarterback. For example, i point to Warren Moon. Did you hear his acceptance speach after he took Thurman Thomas' spot in the Hall of Fame? Don't tell me this isn't a racial thing, you stupid simple minded jack@$$.

 

Sorry to everybody for ruining this thread but i hate people like this.

[BoondckCL]

One more thing, if Young really had the arm that BlueFire thinks, than why didn't he work out at the combine. I think someone is hiding something.

[Chilly]

When Vince Young becomes a free agent a few years from now because the team that picks him finds out that he is a bust, i will laugh so hard.

 

What if i were to tell you i were "black", what would you have to say about that? Just the fact that you think i am white and making a comment like that is a racist comment. As to the idea that there is no favor towards african american quarterbacks - for those of us who wish to keep this politcally correct - and the NFL wanting them to succeed, just look at Michael Vick. Over reated.

 

So what if you are? How does that change anything?

 

Just so you know as to how the voting system works in college football, the media votes on the teams. The media, incase you don't watch ESPN or read any other newspapers, do not know a damn  thing about sports.

 

Discussing the fact that the Big 12 is good, I point to the National Championship game between LSU and Oklahoma.

 

Ah, yeah, pointing to a game last year is really a good indication of strength this year.

 

It is easy to be the most accurate quarterback in the Big 12 when you are throwing short passes to fast receivers.

 

No, not accurate. He wasn't the most accurate quarterback in the Big 12. In fact, if you had read my post, you would have realized that I commented that he had accuracy issues during his career at Texas.

 

He was the most efficient quarterback in college football. This means that he was taking what the defense gave him and making smart decisions with the football. There were several games this year when he completed 60+ yard passes, and also games that he didn't.

 

However, what he didn't do was chuck it up for grabs when there was nothing around.

 

Anybody can score a 16 on the Wonderlic test when they are taken aside and patted on the back, tutored, and given the same test again.

 

And your point being....?

 

There is no doubt that Vince Young had a good performance in the National Championship game. But the fact of the matter is that before the game, Mel Kiper and draft experts were saying Young would not transfer well to the NFL very well. Now just because he rushes for three touchdowns against a USC team that was beaten by Notre Dame, does not mean that he is suddenly the best quarterback available.

 

No one is saying he's the best quarterback available, are they? I still think Leinart should go first.

 

What I'm saying is that these so called negative sides that you are posting just aren't there. In fact, a lot of what the media is saying about Vince isn't true if you have been following his career, and the things he HAS had some problems with they aren't talking about.

 

In an NFL quarterback you want a guy who does not always run and has the ability to throw the ball deep, and be accurate. If you want Vince Young, you need to consider the idea of the winds in Ralph Wilson Stadium and ask yourself if Vince Young could hack it there. Example, the Arizona Cardinals game last year that i attended where the hail and ice were raining down sideways.

 

I don't think Vince would have a problem, at least not more then any other quarterback in this draft. Vince has a strong arm, and in games like those, throwing short balls is usually the gameplan by coaches. Throwing a 60+ yard pass in those conditions doesn't happen very often, and usually results in a bad decision.

 

So it turns out that much like the public school system, your judgement and evaluation of the situation absolutely blows, because you're narrow minded and don't think of the possibility that there is a possibility of the NFL wanting a successful african american quarterback. For example, i point to Warren Moon. Did you hear his acceptance speach after he took Thurman Thomas' spot in the Hall of Fame? Don't tell me this isn't a racial thing, you stupid simple minded jack@$$.

 

Right. You focus on ONE thing that I say, and call me "simple minded". Actually, you're being the simple minded one here. Let's take a look at the points:

 

1.) You think that Wonderlic = how smart someone is.

2.) You think that one game, USC, has defined Vince Young's college career.

3.) You think exactly what the media is telling you to think, that Vince has a soft arm without actually pointing to any instances in which he has.

 

Oh, and not only that, but you have the audacity to come on here and call other people dumbasses when you're a freaking retard.

 

Sorry to everybody for ruining this thread but i hate people like this.

617928[/snapback]

 

Yeah, right. Seems like you hate anyone that doesn't agree with you, and have no problems as to start slinging mud.

 

One more thing, if Young really had the arm that BlueFire thinks, than why didn't he work out at the combine. I think someone is hiding something.

617929[/snapback]

 

Because top quarterbacks don't work out at the combine.

 

AFAIK Matt Leinhart didn't throw for scouts either. He also must be hiding something.

 

Eli Manning skipped the combine. So did Philip Rivers. They also were hiding something.

[BoondckCL]

So what if you are?  How does that change anything? 

Ah, yeah, pointing to a game last year is really a good indication of strength this year. 

No, not accurate.  He wasn't the most accurate quarterback in the Big 12.  In fact, if you had read my post, you would have realized that I commented that he had accuracy issues during his career at Texas.

 

He was the most efficient quarterback in college football.  This means that he was taking what the defense gave him and making smart decisions with the football.  There were several games this year when he completed 60+ yard passes, and also games that he didn't.

 

However, what he didn't do was chuck it up for grabs when there was nothing around.

And your point being....?

No one is saying he's the best quarterback available, are they?  I still think Leinart should go first.

 

What I'm saying is that these so called negative sides that you are posting just aren't there.  In fact, a lot of what the media is saying about Vince isn't true if you have been following his career, and the things he HAS had some problems with they aren't talking about.

I don't think Vince would have a problem, at least not more then any other quarterback in this draft.  Vince has a strong arm, and in games like those, throwing short balls is usually the gameplan by coaches.  Throwing a 60+ yard pass in those conditions doesn't happen very often, and usually results in a bad decision.

Right.  You focus on ONE thing that I say, and call me "simple minded".  Actually, you're being the simple minded one here.  Let's take a look at the points:

 

1.) You think that Wonderlic = how smart someone is.

2.) You think that one game, USC, has defined Vince Young's college career.

3.) You think exactly what the media is telling you to think, that Vince has a soft arm without actually pointing to any instances in which he has.

 

Oh, and not only that, but you have the audacity to come on here and call other people dumbasses when you're a freaking retard.

Yeah, right.  Seems like you hate anyone that doesn't agree with you, and have no problems as to start slinging mud.

Because top quarterbacks don't work out at the combine.

 

AFAIK Matt Leinhart didn't throw for scouts either.  He also must be hiding something.

 

Eli Manning skipped the combine.  So did Philip Rivers.  They also were hiding something. 

617934[/snapback]

 

I had no problem with any of your views. What pissed me off was your reference to me as a racist. The fact that i take umbrage at it is eveidence enough that i am in fact not a racist.

 

Sorry you are a big Vince Young fan, but i think that because of that, your view is a little jaded as to his strengths and weaknesses.

 

All an NFL team would have to do to stop Vince Young is go into a zone defense and not have any more people than you have to covering the deep ball, seeing as he can't get it there and a smart offensive coordinatior would realize that he can't make the deep throws. So all you would have to do is have people no deeper than lets say 20 yards.

 

I respect your opinion and i think Young has the potential to be okay. I am just pointing out some of the flaws with him. That is not a crime or stupidity.

[BoondckCL]

"No one is saying he's the best quarterback available, are they? I still think Leinart should go first.

 

What I'm saying is that these so called negative sides that you are posting just aren't there. In fact, a lot of what the media is saying about Vince isn't true if you have been following his career, and the things he HAS had some problems with they aren't talking about."

 

I know you aren't saying that, what the innitial argument was that we should trade up for Vince Young because Losman has some how been labeled a bust. I wasn't accusing you of saying he was the best quarterback available, i think you took it that way with my first post.

[Sisyphean Bills]

A few reasons to shy away from Vince Young.

 

His style of play. He's a 6'5" newer, shiny version of Michael Vick. His arm and accuracy. Isn't he retarded? The basic QB hype factor. (Newsflash: the Texas Longhorns won the Rose Bowl, not Vince Young.) High QB draft picks are more likely to be busts than smart, positive draft moves. In the Bills case, who plays QB is irrelevant until they can put some talent in many other huge gaping holes across the roster.

[Ghost of BiB]

A few reasons to shy away from Vince Young.

 

His style of play.  He's a 6'5" newer, shiny version of Michael Vick.  His arm and accuracy.  Isn't he retarded?  The basic QB hype factor. (Newsflash: the Texas Longhorns won the Rose Bowl, not Vince Young.)  High QB draft picks are more likely to be busts than smart, positive draft moves.  In the Bills case, who plays QB is irrelevant until they can put some talent in many other huge gaping holes across the roster.

617997[/snapback]

 

Got to agree there.

 

I'm still trying to figure out the "draft QB's" threads.

 

And BTW...please don't sign Ramsey.

[Ctown]

I am amazed to hear all the people talk about Losman and the possiblity of drafting one of the quaterbacks in the first round. You people need to get a grip on reality.

 

1) Marv has said that you build a team from the inside out. That inside being the guys in the trenches. There is no way we will take a skill position with the first pick. Nor will we ever trade up. Its too expensive to move up. It would cost us a good player, and maybe a 1st pick next year. Not only expensive in the draft, its is expensive in $$$.

 

2) There is a lot of talent in the first round. The hype surrounding the "best" players in the draft will have faded in October and December. I'm sure SF fans are loving that Alex Smith pick right now?

 

3) Losman. All I have to say about this is; give the guy another 2 years at least. It takes some quaterbacks a while to get it. There are a few QB's that I can think of that took them a few years to get it. Hasseleback, Delhomme, Gannon are three that come to mind right away. Look at the development of Simms in TB. People have been wanting to write him off for a while now. Very few QB's are in the Brady, Big Ben mold where they have sucess right out of the gates. You could have easily said the same things about Eli Mannining after his first year; "He hasnt show he has what it takes" etc.

 

4) People around here love the players when they are good, but they are also quick to turn on them. Its frankley embarrasing. Lets hope your boss has some more faith in you after you screw up. People forget that at one point people wanted Frank Riech to start instead of Jimbo. Remember "Do the Riech thing!"

 

5) All of the top 3 QB's in the draft will have forgetable years.

[JDG]

3) Losman.  All I have to say about this is; give the guy another 2 years at least.  It takes some quaterbacks a while to get it.  There are a few QB's that I can think of that took them a few years to get it.  Hasseleback, Delhomme, Gannon are three that come to mind right away.  Look at the development of Simms in TB.  People have been wanting to write him off for a while now. 

 

This is part of the fallacy that there is "only one level of bad" - or in other words "QB was X bad when he first started, JP Losman was first started, therfore no worries." This logic isn't much different from "God is Love, Love is Blind, Ray Charles is Blind, therfore Ray Charles is God!"

 

Matt Hasselbeck in his first starts as a 2nd year and 3rd year QB completed 53% of his passes. Delhomme completed 55% of his passes in two games as rookie, and when he next played for Carolina three years later he completed 59% of his passes. Even Rich Gannon, who was pretty bad in his first year as a starter as a third-year QB managed to hit 52% of his passes. Gannon got up to 59.6% the next year though. Chris Simms hit 57.5% of his passes as a rookie, and hit 61% this past year in leading his team into the playoffs in a tough division.

 

The funny thing is, I don't think that Chris Simms is very good, and we all know that Rich Gannon wasn't any good when he first started. Matt Hasselbeck nearly got Mike Holmgren fired his first few years. And yet, JP Losman has so far been measurably far worse than any of these players.

 

Folks, it is *not* the reaction of a knee-jerk angry mob to be concerned about Losman's performance last year. Losman has to improve a lot to simply get to the level of being a "bad" NFL QB. It will take even more to get to the level of decent next year - which is what we are all hoping for. Based on what we say this past year, Levy and Jauron would be very, very, foolish to not have a "Plan B" mulling around in the back of their minds "just in case."

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

This is part of the fallacy that there is "only one level of bad" - or in other words "QB was X bad when he first started, JP Losman was first started, therfore no worries."    This logic isn't much different from "God is Love, Love is Blind, Ray Charles is Blind, therfore Ray Charles is God!"

 

Matt Hasselbeck in his first starts as a 2nd year and 3rd year QB completed 53% of his passes.  Delhomme completed 55% of his passes in two games as rookie, and when he next played for Carolina three years later he completed 59% of his passes.  Even Rich Gannon, who was pretty bad in his first year as a starter as a third-year QB managed to hit 52% of his passes.  Gannon got up to 59.6% the next year though.  Chris Simms hit 57.5% of his passes as a rookie, and hit 61% this past year in leading his team into the playoffs in a tough division.

 

The funny thing is, I don't think that Chris Simms is very good, and we all know that Rich Gannon wasn't any good when he first started.  Matt Hasselbeck nearly got Mike Holmgren fired his first few years.  And yet, JP Losman has so far been measurably far worse than any of these players. 

 

Folks, it is *not* the reaction of a knee-jerk angry mob to be concerned about Losman's performance last year.  Losman has to improve a lot to simply get to the level of being a "bad" NFL QB.  It will take even more to get to the level of decent next year - which is what we are all hoping for.    Based on what we say this past year, Levy and Jauron would be very, very, foolish to not have a "Plan B" mulling around in the back of their minds "just in case."

 

JDG

618046[/snapback]

Did you watch the games? If JP was asked to drop back and throw short passes on first and second down like the game plan for Holcomb was, he would have completed 55+% like you are suggesting is way better. He simply wasn't. Was he inaccurate at times? Yes, and it was when he was rattled in that 3-4 game stretch early in the season. But he was asked to throw the ball downfield way, way more than Holcomb was, by play-call not by decision, and then on 3rd and long he tried to pick up the first down, or would scramble and avoid a sack by throwing the ball away, all of which drastically lowers your %.

[The Dean]

Folks, it is *not* the reaction of a knee-jerk angry mob to be concerned about Losman's performance last year. 

JDG

618046[/snapback]

 

 

It really REALLY is, JDG. No definative conclusions (either way) can be drawn about JP right now.

[JDG]

Folks, it is *not* the reaction of a knee-jerk angry mob to be concerned about Losman's performance last year. Losman has to improve a lot to simply get to the level of being a "bad" NFL QB. It will take even more to get to the level of decent next year - which is what we are all hoping for. Based on what we say this past year, Levy and Jauron would be very, very, foolish to not have a "Plan B" mulling around in the back of their minds "just in case."

 

It really REALLY is, JDG.  No definative conclusions (either way) can be drawn about JP right now.

618053[/snapback]

 

Since when is "concern" a definitive conclusion? I'm not saying that Losman should be cut. I am not saying that we should trade up to get one of the Big 3 QB's (but if one of them were on the board, I would think for a very long time about it!) I am saying this:

 

1) Kelly Holcomb should be the starter until JP Losman proves in practice that he is the better QB *right now*.

 

2) Levy and Jauron should at least have some ideas in their head for what happens if next year Losman is still a sub-50% or even still a sub-55% passer; or if Losman fails to complete a full NFL season for the third year in a row. This should involve either a free agent acquisition, or better yet, a mid-round draft acquisition of a QB.

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

1) Kelly Holcomb should be the starter until JP Losman proves in practice that he is the better QB *right now*.

 

2) Levy and Jauron should at least have some ideas in their head for what happens if next year Losman is still a sub-50% or even still a sub-55% passer; or if Losman fails to complete a full NFL season for the third year in a row.    This should involve either a free agent acquisition, or better yet, a mid-round draft acquisition of a QB. 

 

JDG

618077[/snapback]

There's a big problem with that. Losman likely will show in practice that he deserves to start. Because he will be able to run and scramble and bootleg and throw deep and they can do all kinds of things with him. Holcomb will be better at throwing his 5-15 yard passes quickly and accurately. It is only in the games when there are live bullets and the game speeds up that you find out if Losman is ready or not.

 

Of course, that is why Losman is going to start opening day 2006.

[JDG]

Did you watch the games? If JP was asked to drop back and throw short passes on first and second down like the game plan for Holcomb was, he would have completed 55+% like you are suggesting is way better. He simply wasn't. Was he inaccurate at times? Yes, and it was when he was rattled in that 3-4 game stretch early in the season. But he was asked to throw the ball downfield way, way more than Holcomb was, by play-call not by decision, and then on 3rd and long he tried to pick up the first down, or would scramble and avoid a sack by throwing the ball away, all of which drastically lowers your %.

618050[/snapback]

 

 

Actually, Kelly I benefited from the fact that I never got the chance to see JP Losman's most putrid performances in Weeks 2-4. I did, however, get to watch JP's second stint as a starter. On two occasions, vs. Carolina and @Miami, I observed that JP Losman "needed to start playing beter" early in the second half. Those people around me, particularly in the Carolina game, replied "what, JP Losman looks like he is playing good to me." I response, I noted that yes, JP Losman is playing good (and these were two of his better games), but he is playing just good enough for us to lose. Sure enough, we lost both of those games.

 

I don't think that JP Losman would have completed 55% of his passes with a different gameplan, because I think that last year he simply wasn't capable of it. I am hopeful that he will be capable of it this year. Holcomb, by the way, completed 67% of his passes to the same WR's that JP Losman was under the Mendoza Line for. If the coaches did call more runs under JP than Kelly, I think the easiest explanation is that you call more passes when they have a 65% chance of being completed, than when there is less than a 50% chance of completed.

 

Of course, I am not at all convinced that there is the play-calling difference that you propose. To test your theory out, I decided to look at Bills' playcalling on 1st and 10 outside of 2 minutes for some select games. To be fair to your theory, I tried to exclude games where JP got blown out (which was a lot), and games in JP's "putrid stretch" at the start of the season. So, JP Losman vs. Carolina - 9 runs and 5 passes. Aha! you say! But let's look at Holcomb @ Cincy - 9 runs and 6 passes. Holcomb vs. Miami - 13 runs and 9 passes. How about JP Losman's other "mediocre game" ;-) - vs. Kansas City? 7 Runs and 5 passes. Holcomb in the same game? 3 Runs and 2 Passes. So, its an interesting theory that play-calling accounts for the difference KFBD, but I don't see any evidence for it yet.

 

I think it is far more likely that JP Losman simply sucked, to occasionally rising to the level of mediocrity, in most of the games that we have seen of him so far.

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

Actually, Kelly I benefited from the fact that I never got the chance to see JP Losman's most putrid performances in Weeks 2-4.    I did, however, get to watch JP's second stint as a starter.  On two occasions, vs. Carolina and @Miami, I observed that JP Losman "needed to start playing beter" early in the second half.  Those people around me, particularly in the Carolina game, replied "what, JP Losman looks like he is playing good to me."    I response, I noted that yes, JP Losman is playing good (and these were two of his better games), but he is playing just good enough for us to lose.  Sure enough, we lost both of those games.

 

I don't think that JP Losman would have completed 55% of his passes with a different gameplan, because I think that last year he simply wasn't capable of it.  I am hopeful that he will be capable of it this year.  Holcomb, by the way, completed 67% of his passes to the same WR's that JP Losman was under the Mendoza Line for.    If the coaches did call more runs under JP than Kelly, I think the easiest explanation is that you call more passes when they have a 65% chance of being completed, than when there is less than a 50% chance of completed. 

 

Of course, I am not at all convinced that there is the play-calling difference that you propose.  To test your theory out, I decided to look at Bills' playcalling on 1st and 10 outside of 2 minutes for some select games.  To be fair to your theory, I tried to exclude games where JP got blown out (which was a lot), and games in JP's "putrid stretch" at the start of the season.  So, JP Losman vs. Carolina - 9 runs and 5 passes.    Aha! you say!  But let's look at Holcomb @ Cincy - 9 runs and 6 passes.  Holcomb vs. Miami - 13 runs and 9 passes.  How about JP Losman's other "mediocre game" ;-) - vs. Kansas City?  7 Runs and 5 passes.  Holcomb in the same game?  3 Runs and 2 Passes.    So, its an interesting theory that play-calling accounts for the difference KFBD, but I don't see any evidence for it yet. 

 

I think it is far more likely that JP Losman simply sucked, to occasionally rising to the level of mediocrity, in most of the games that we have seen of him so far.

 

JDG

618100[/snapback]

Then apparently you didnt watch the games. I am not talking about the number of play calls, I am talking about the KIND of play calls. JP was asked to drop back in the pocket, survey the field, and with an enormous rush and few open receivers, go through progressions and hit guys downfield. Holcomb was asked to take a three step drop and throw the ball 5-10 yards downfield. While that is a gross simplification, and there were numerous exceptions, it's pretty close to what happened to get us to the 67% and 49%. That and the fact that KH would dump the ball off and JP would try to make a play.

[JDG]

Then apparently you didnt watch the games. I am not talking about the number of play calls, I am talking about the KIND of play calls. JP was asked to drop back in the pocket, survey the field, and with an enormous rush and few open receivers, go through progressions and hit guys downfield. Holcomb was asked to take a three step drop and throw the ball 5-10 yards downfield. While that is a gross simplification, and there were numerous exceptions, it's pretty close to what happened to get us to the 67% and 49%. That and the fact that KH would dump the ball off and JP would try to make a play.

618102[/snapback]

 

Don't tell me what I did and didn't watch. I'll tell you exactly what I watched. Oh wait, I already did that.

 

I think you are grasping at straws to try and justify Losman's putrid performance. You act like the coaches were just trying to set up Losman to fail. In any event, either you have a superhuman ability to remember playcalls on 1st and 10 over the course of a season, or you have some evidence for your position that you haven't yet presented (and which I would be very interested in seeing.)

 

I think there is a much more reasonable explanation for your stated observations (presuming that your stated observations are accurate) than the coaches trying to set up JP Losman to fail.

-Kelly Holcomb simply makes faster and better reads than JP Losman. Losman, on the other hand, may have a little Bledsoe-disease in not wanting to take the 5-10 yard pattersn the defenses are giving him, and instead waiting for the big play.

-JP Losman has accuracy problems, and because Holcomb completes those passes for 5-10 yards, Holcomb gets into a lot fewer 2nd and 3rd and long situations that require sitting in the pocket long enough for receivers to get open deep down the field

-Because JP Losman has accuracy problems, teams are much less worried about JP Losman beating them with his arm. Thus, these teams gang up on the run, and send extra pass-rushers. This again gets Losman into more 2nd and 3rd and long scenarios.

 

I'm no fan of Mularkey - as you know, I really despised him this seasons - but I think its just absurd to blame Losman's terrible performance thus far on the coaches giving Kelly Holcomb better play calls than Losman.

 

JDG

[PromoTheRobot]

In reality all debates about Losman vs. Holcomb are moot because of (1) The O-line and (2) the offensive playcalling. Let Levy address the O-line first, and Fairchild the gameplan. I will defer to the coaching staff to pick the best starter, be it Losman, Holcomb, or Billy Joe Hobert.

 

But one point is indisputable (for me anyway)...You don't know what Losman's potential is after 9 games. You can't make judgements on any QB after 9 games in the NFL. Anyone who says they can is either psychic, or a liar.

 

PTR

[Kelly the Dog]

Don't tell me what I did and didn't watch.  I'll tell you exactly what I watched.  Oh wait, I already did that.

 

I think you are grasping at straws to try and justify Losman's putrid performance.  You act like the coaches were just trying to set up Losman to fail.  In any event, either you have a superhuman ability to remember playcalls on 1st and 10 over the course of a season, or you have some evidence for your position that you haven't yet presented (and which I would be very interested in seeing.)

 

I think there is a much more reasonable explanation for your stated observations (presuming that your stated observations are accurate) than the coaches trying to set up JP Losman to fail.

-Kelly Holcomb simply makes faster and better reads than JP Losman.  Losman, on the other hand, may have a little Bledsoe-disease in not wanting to take the 5-10 yard pattersn the defenses are giving him, and instead waiting for the big play.

-JP Losman has accuracy problems, and because Holcomb completes those passes for 5-10 yards, Holcomb gets into a lot fewer 2nd and 3rd and long situations that require sitting in the pocket long enough for receivers to get open deep down the field

-Because JP Losman has accuracy problems, teams are much less worried about JP Losman beating them with his arm.  Thus, these teams gang up on the run, and send extra pass-rushers.  This again gets Losman into more 2nd and 3rd and long scenarios.

 

I'm no fan of Mularkey - as you know, I really despised him this seasons - but I think its just absurd to blame Losman's terrible performance thus far on the coaches giving Kelly Holcomb better play calls than Losman.

 

JDG

618129[/snapback]

They clearly gave Holcomb better play calls and game plans. It was obvious immediately, the first few games that Holcomb played. One doesn't need any insight into the minds or superhuman abilities to count the number of steps a QB takes from the snap. When Holcomb was in, he threw far, far, far more times from a 3 step drop than JP did. And he's better at it than JP is. He's smarter, he reads defenses better, he's more accurate on these balls and he knows where and when to go with it. If it's not there he quickly sees it, far faster than JP does, and then dumps the ball off to a second and even a third receiver, all within a short period of time. It's by far his best quality. So the coaches asked him to do it. A lot. And he got his lofty completion percentage.

 

Where they screwed up with Losman was that is the same game plan they should of used with him. Not the same plays because he can't yet do what Holcomb can do, but the same kind of plays. Short, quick, safe passes. Roll outs, reverse bootlegs, WR screens, quick outs. Play action screen passes (because he already handles the ball very well on fakes).

 

But they didn't. Game one series one they asked him to drop back deep in the pocket. Game two and three and four and five same thing. Then he got murdered. Game six, Holcomb comes in and immediately they went to the short drop and quick pass game plan.

 

So yes, they did just blow it with Losman. I think it was because they fell in love with his arm, and because Mularkey just wanted to outsmart everyone, saying we have this kid and they think we're going to protect him but we're not. He can do this. And it was a gross misculation and cost him his job.

[ndirish1978]

They clearly gave Holcomb better play calls and game plans.

618135[/snapback]

 

 

Yes that's it. Losman's incompletions MUSt have been because the coaches made him throw the ball wrong. What the heck are you talking about. You get a play you execute it. you can blame coaches for poor gameplans, but don't try and say "well they were good for this guy, but they stunk for this other one" that's simply foolish.

[Kelly the Dog]

Yes that's it. Losman's incompletions MUSt have been because the coaches made him throw the ball wrong. What the heck are you talking about. You get a play you execute it. you can blame coaches for poor gameplans, but don't try and say "well they were good for this guy, but they stunk for this other one" that's simply foolish.

618204[/snapback]

The issue was Losman's pass completion percentage, Aristocrat. Why it paled in comparison to Holcomb's. If you watched the games with Holcomb you would notice a far greater percentage of quick pass plays on three step drops. if you watched the games with Losman you would notice a far greater percentage of 5 and 7 step drops and deeper throws.

[JDG]

The issue was Losman's pass completion percentage, Aristocrat. Why it paled in comparison to Holcomb's. If you watched the games with Holcomb you would notice a far greater percentage of quick pass plays on three step drops. if you watched the games with Losman you would notice a far greater percentage of 5 and 7 step drops and deeper throws.

618210[/snapback]

 

Kelly -

 

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they did not watch the games.

 

Part of the problem is that Losman is just plain not nearly as quick nor as good at making reads that Holcomb. He's also much less willing to take what the defense gives him than Holcomb. So, some of that difference is Losman's Bledsoe-itis and holding onto the ball longer, even given the same playcall.

 

And let us be clear here - Losman completed less than 50% of his passes. There is zero excuse for that in any NFL offense. If you sustain a sub-50% completion percentage over 9 games you are just plain not that good. Period. For example, Ryan Fitzpatrick wasn't exactly in a dink-and-dunk offense, and he still managed to complete 56% of his passes. So, even if your theory were true, Losman was playing in an NFL offense last season, and while perhaps the difference in play calling might never have allowed him to match Holcomb's fantastic 67% passing, the simple truth remains that if Losman was *any good* last season, he would not have been sub-50%.

 

You're trying to use a detail to explain away a chasm, and it just doesn't hold water.

 

JDG

[Ramius]

Kelly -

 

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they did not watch the games.

 

Part of the problem is that Losman is just plain not nearly as quick nor as good at making reads that Holcomb.  He's also much less willing to take what the defense gives him than Holcomb.  So, some of that difference is Losman's Bledsoe-itis and holding onto the ball longer, even given the same playcall.

 

And let us be clear here - Losman completed less than 50% of his passes.  There is zero excuse for that in any NFL offense.  If you sustain a sub-50% completion percentage over 9 games you are just plain not that good.  Period.  For example, Ryan Fitzpatrick wasn't exactly in a dink-and-dunk offense, and he still managed to complete 56% of his passes.  So, even if your theory were true, Losman was playing in an NFL offense last season, and while perhaps the difference in play calling might never have allowed him to match Holcomb's fantastic 67% passing, the simple truth remains that if Losman was *any good* last season, he would not have been sub-50%.

 

You're trying to use a detail to explain away a chasm, and it just doesn't hold water.

 

JDG

618213[/snapback]

 

Ryan Fitzpatrick also threw 5 interceptions in one game. a lot of good 50% completion percentage does when you throw 4 TD and 8 INT over the 4 games you play in.

 

Also, with your little anti-losman/completion % crusade, you say that he cant maintain a 50% completion percentage. Funny how you neglect to point out that losman got increasingly better over the second part of the season compared to the first. He completeed 47% in his first 4 games, and 51% in his last 5. Taking away the new englnd debacle, his completion % over 4 games, KC, SD, Car, and Mia is 54%.

 

But you've got it in your head that JP losman sucks, so according to you, the losman of the 1st 4 games is the true losman. Never mind the fact that he made some good strides in the second half of the season.

 

And where was holcomb? oh thats right. Completing a 2 yard pass on 4th and 7. Who cares that he gave us no chance to make the first down, he completed his pass and padded his stats.

 

Christ, you with completion % are just like holcombs arm with QB rating.

[Tasker]

The ONLY guy you trade up for in this draft is D'BRICK.  PERIOD.

612673[/snapback]

 

Mario Williams? I'm not saying how much I would give up to go up and pick him, but I would much rather have him than whover is available at 8, and would be exploring all options to trade up and get him, and only decide based on how much it would cost us, not on him not being worth trading up.

 

 

 

Also, a quick hit on the Losman stuff. He threw 228 passes and completed 113 of them for 49.6%. If he completed one more that percentage would start with a 5 instead of a 4, and we would probably be a little less worried, strangely. Also, it would have taken 12 more completions to get to 55%. Not making any excuses for the guy, but a few Josh Reed drops, bad protection, playing hurt in the NE game, and terrible play calling by Mularkey factored in too.

 

After coming back from his "month off" he completed 56% against KC, 55% against SD, 55% against Carolina, all three very solid teams. We don't know what we have with him yet, but I am very optimistic. We do not take a QB in the draft this year. We start JPL 16 times in 2006 with the best team and play calling we can have around him, then evaluate more next winter.

[The Dean]

Then apparently you didnt watch the games. I am not talking about the number of play calls, I am talking about the KIND of play calls. JP was asked to drop back in the pocket, survey the field, and with an enormous rush and few open receivers, go through progressions and hit guys downfield. Holcomb was asked to take a three step drop and throw the ball 5-10 yards downfield. While that is a gross simplification, and there were numerous exceptions, it's pretty close to what happened to get us to the 67% and 49%. That and the fact that KH would dump the ball off and JP would try to make a play.

618102[/snapback]

 

 

Without reading past this post (which i will do AFTER posting this), let me just say BINGO! The game plan/plays called were totally different for these two guys. I'm thinking the coaches KNEW KH could only execute certain plays given his history. they asked him to do only what they knew he was capable of. OTOH, they were finding out what JP could do (and were likely seduced by his ability in practice) and put him in MUCH more difficult situations. Add to that the number of passes that were flat out dropped/not given total effort for, when JP was in and that pretty much explains the completion % differential.