Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Vikings- 331 yardsrush -160 yards 2nd half scoring drives: 15 plays -88yds - TD 8-62-FG 10-58-FG BALL GAME- SCOREBOARD Keep the glasses on boys. You just might see Mikey break into that starting lineup yet. Tough competion he has to beat out though. HE LOST HIS JOB TO A FREE AGENT. 510077[/snapback] The key statistical point which you seem to be missing here (perhaps you might take off your glasses and see it) is that the game has a first half which counts on the scoreboard as well. If one is going to try to "prove" a players valyue by relying on an analysis of the teams statistics then one should really look at the entire team performance. Overall as a team MN should get the appropriate credit for beating one of the worse teams in the NFL on the road with a substandard offensive performance (the conventional wisdom is that a D needs to hold an opponent to 20 points or fewer to be considered as having a good game- As the ME O produced 13 points for the game and fortunately got the benefit of 7 points on an INT return, I think it defies both the stats and wisdom to call the MN O performance anything but substandard). MN deserves credit in this game for getting a W on the road. This is very hard to do. However, it seems fairly rediculous for any fan of the Vikes to feel good about their O performance in this game (and one would have to do a lot to indicate one should feel good about the performance of McKinnie and most other members of the Vikes O in this game. Vikes fans should feel great about the game result because they got the W and it cannot be taken away from them. However, it defies both stats and logic to try to feel good about a particular O player on this squad based upon their substandard O performance. The TSW motivation here seems to be a desire to find fault with or indict TD. This is a legitimate point and can easily and honestly be done as the W/L under his reign has been sub .500 even if you throw out the initial 3-13 season and blame that on Butler. Hoiwever, an attempt to make this point based on the assertion that TD should have passed on MW and taken McKinnie instead is just silly. MW sucks and has disappointed. However, McKinnie sucks and has disappointed as well. Last night McKinnie's performance in one half does not include a rational analysis of the entire game played by McK, needs rose colored glasses to even attempt to make this point using last night's Vikes O performance and needs glasses which obscure the reality of McK's play over his career, his interluded with the cops this year and his initial holdout. There are plenty of good reasons to find fault with and indict TD. It however is completely irrational to look at McKinnie's career and a selected look at his performance in part of one game to claim that TD was an idiot for picking MW instead of McKinnie. TD is an idiot but last nights game presents no evidence to show this however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarthur31 Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 yep I'm sure glad we didn't draft him. If your still watching this game, you know he looks pretty good out there. 509815[/snapback] FLMAO! You'd rather have him than Nate? Are you serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-dog Posted November 22, 2005 Author Share Posted November 22, 2005 FLMAO! You'd rather have him than Nate? Are you serious? 510447[/snapback] Unreal. My point of the whole thread was McKinnie looked good in the 2nd half as Minny rolled G. Bay. Yes, that was the gambling coming out. Others then hijacked the thread and started throwing Mikey around. I then needed to state the fact that he isn't a starter here so it doesn't really apply. But before you all start your spinning, I did state yesterday that I would like to see him start the rest of the year at lg. He has to be better than Bennie. Also, he did get a few snaps at LEFT tackle Sunday according to Ed Kilgore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-dog Posted November 22, 2005 Author Share Posted November 22, 2005 Fake-Fat, I have no time or desire to read one of your books ever since you said that Mikey doesn't get beat off the edge. If you have a cliff notes version let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gross Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 But before you all start your spinning, I did state yesterday that I would like to see him start the rest of the year at lg. He has to be better than Bennie. Also, he did get a few snaps at LEFT tackle Sunday according to Ed Kilgore. 510463[/snapback] Coulda swore I saw a big #68 in a huddle shot, but got distracted and didn't see where he ended up on the line...Just checked the gamebook. The only active player not to play was Matthews (and, of course, emergency QB Holcomb), and they have Williams listed as subbing in at OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 But before you all start your spinning, 510463[/snapback] Got a betting line for Thursday's game for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Unreal.My point of the whole thread was McKinnie looked good in the 2nd half as Minny rolled G. Bay. Yes, that was the gambling coming out. Others then hijacked the thread and started throwing Mikey around. I then needed to state the fact that he isn't a starter here so it doesn't really apply. Speaking of unreal.... You now expect us to believe that a guy who has been on a Mike Williams crusade started a thread about drafting McKinnie but it didn't have anything to do with Mike Williams until somebody else brought him up?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Fake-Fat, I have no time or desire to read one of your books ever since you said that Mikey doesn't get beat off the edge. If you have a cliff notes version let me know. 510465[/snapback] Let me summarize it for you: The key statistical point which you seem to be missing here, is that the game has a first half which counts on the scoreboard as well. But...but...but...you handicapped that second half perfectly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Speaking of unreal....You now expect us to believe that a guy who has been on a Mike Williams crusade started a thread about drafting McKinnie but it didn't have anything to do with Mike Williams until somebody else brought him up?! 510483[/snapback] No kidding. Regarding MW, I was pretty sure I saw him at LT as well in the 4th qtr, but wasn't 100% sure. I guess he relaly did play LT some. Interesting. CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Can I play? I love the who we should have drafted game 3 years later. Its really fun. 509877[/snapback] Nah, let's just absolve TD of any and all culpability. We shouldn't face facts. The truth hurts, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Fake-Fat, I have no time or desire to read one of your books ever since you said that Mikey doesn't get beat off the edge. If you have a cliff notes version let me know. 510465[/snapback] I'll try to keep this short since reading obviously is exhausting for you. 1. MW has really been a big disappointment in terms of production for a #4 pick. 2. MW like all tackles gets beaten by speed rushes off the edge )ex. Schobel dusted Ogden last year in Balt) but by far the bigger problem in his career has benn coordinating with the RG next to him on stunts and when folks go inside on him. 3. Often edge rushers have to actually run around the TE lined up to his outside at RT so the edge rush has not been the major issue he needs to address in terms of improvement. 4. Last year working with Villareal rather than requiring him to "teach" the young Pacillo saw his best performance as a Bill. I have little idea where you have maufactured the fantasy from that I said he NEVER gets beat on the edge or why you demonstrate such a fundamental misunderstanding of OL play. I do not claim at all to be an expert but I do know what a TE is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I don't know what went on in the first half but it is inconceivable to me that somebody could have watched the same dancing bear act I watched and consider that to be good. I guess it's a matter of perspective?-0 I don't know if you can make a reasonable list that big about other realistic options. I'm not convinced we'd be any better off with an 8mil/year FS that can't cover so that leaves RoyWilliams off. Ed Reed didn't go until the end of the round and Dwight Freeney wasn't taken for another 2 hrs so that may be a little too "much" hindsight to hold the Bills to. I liked Levi Jones too, in fact I rememebr thinking I might like him more than the two toobig guys, but he also hung around for another couple hours before being drafted by a team that caught hell for reaching for him too early. John Henderson, I have no argument with. He'd have been a good pick at the time at an even more important position and I wish Donahoe would have done it. EDIT: Wait I think I figured it out. At one point lateinthe3rd/earlyinthe4th John Madden was going on about how great McKinnie looked, meanwhile if you were actually watching the screen you may have noticed him getting knocked into the backfield by 203lb Kahbeer Gbaja-Biamila en route to dropping Mewelde Moore for a 3yrd loss. So e-dog must have been watching the game with his ears again. McKinnie's inability to move his man off the line(who he's only got about 100+lbs on) or to get to his outside shoulder eventually forced the Vikes to start pulling #64(who I thought was the best Viking OLineman on the field) out just so they could get a seal for Moore. He also spent a lot of downs with the underrated Kleinsasser on his hip, which is odd considering that they had a gimpy and apparently struggling Mike Rosenthal on the other side. But boy I sure wish he was a Bill..... 509928[/snapback] Oh sure, NOW you speak up in this infamous debate which has been crusaded by a stubborn few ad nauseum Where were you those 67 other times, hmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Can I play? I love the who we should have drafted game 3 years later. Its really fun. 509877[/snapback] Thing is Mr Rolleyes...How else do you Judge a Draft? Or would you rather be among those who felt Indy reached for Freeney on Draft Day and just leave it at that? Do me a favor... go out and Play and let the Grown Ups talk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarthur31 Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Unreal. My point of the whole thread was McKinnie looked good in the 2nd half as Minny rolled G. Bay. Yes, that was the gambling coming out. Others then hijacked the thread and started throwing Mikey around. I then needed to state the fact that he isn't a starter here so it doesn't really apply. But before you all start your spinning, I did state yesterday that I would like to see him start the rest of the year at lg. He has to be better than Bennie. Also, he did get a few snaps at LEFT tackle Sunday according to Ed Kilgore. 510463[/snapback] In the original message, you were trying to compare him to Mike. Who we drafted years later! I wouldn't change anything about Nate at all. I'm glad we got him instead of Bryant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I'm not convinced we'd be any better off with an 8mil/year FS that can't cover so that leaves RoyWilliams off. Ed Reed didn't go until the end of the round and Dwight Freeney wasn't taken for another 2 hrs so that may be a little too "much" hindsight to hold the Bills to. I liked Levi Jones too, in fact I rememebr thinking I might like him more than the two toobig guys, but he also hung around for another couple hours before being drafted by a team that caught hell for reaching for him too early. John Henderson, I have no argument with. He'd have been a good pick at the time at an even more important position and I wish Donahoe would have done it. 509928[/snapback] Well...I mostly agree with your take on Roy Williams, though I'd rather have him than a Back-Up LG any day... As far as Freeney and Reed are concerned, all it tells me is there were other GM's who missed the Boat also, but TD/TM are lumped right in that group (and considering they held the #4 Overall Pick...they pretty much led the group)...Both players were outstanding, difference/play-making Defenders in College...Many felt Polian reached for Freeney on Draft Day...He knew what he was doing... And TD had his best Draft success by Trading down for Nate Clements and getting that extra Pick that netted Travis Henry...Where was that strategy in 2002? The Talent he could have got with a Trade Down in the 2002 Draft was endless... For a good part of his Soph and Jr. Seasons Henderson was considered a possible #1 Overall Pick...Now I understand he had some injury concerns, but really...Is this not just poor Scouting? What in the heck happened to the Scouting Department that was widely considered one of the NFL's best? Sorry...Late night rant...I need sleep... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
envirojeff Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Unreal. My point of the whole thread was McKinnie looked good in the 2nd half as Minny rolled G. Bay. Yes, that was the gambling coming out. Others then hijacked the thread and started throwing Mikey around. I then needed to state the fact that he isn't a starter here so it doesn't really apply. But before you all start your spinning, I did state yesterday that I would like to see him start the rest of the year at lg. He has to be better than Bennie. Also, he did get a few snaps at LEFT tackle Sunday according to Ed Kilgore. 510463[/snapback] Ah..NO! In case you forgot your original post, here it is: yep I'm sure glad we didn't draft him. If your still watching this game, you know he looks pretty good out there. Now your saying that you meant the second half?? Please, in your next post, just go ahead and deny posting in the first place. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 What in the heck happened to the Scouting Department that was widely considered one of the NFL's best? 510761[/snapback] Ask the Chargers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 And TD had his best Draft success by Trading down for Nate Clements and getting that extra Pick that netted Travis Henry...Where was that strategy in 2002? The Talent he could have got with a Trade Down in the 2002 Draft was endless... It takes two to tango, and it was widely reported that nobody wanted to trade up into any of the top spots that year. But let's blame TD on that anyway. CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-dog Posted November 23, 2005 Author Share Posted November 23, 2005 In the original message, you were trying to compare him to Mike. Who we drafted years later! I wouldn't change anything about Nate at all. I'm glad we got him instead of Bryant. 510758[/snapback] Drinking early ??? I'm waiting till later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricojes Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 The bottom line is there's not much difference between MW and BM, they occasionally have a good game (or half) but they are few and far between. Plus, BM was a hold out for most of his first season. The big thing here is that the Bills don't bounce back from a bad draft. The Chargers drafted Ryan Freakin Leaf and became contenders a few years later. The Bills are going backwards, I don't see this team being competetive for a few more years (if were lucky). We are in sad shape with aging and slow safeties, a cornerback we will lose to free agency, a DT that only wants to play a few plays a game (and will be gone after this year), a pathetic O-Line, no depth at WR, a developing QB (if they keep him in), poor scouting ever since Butler and Smith left, and horrific play calling and coaching. I could go on and on................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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