The timeouts

[pennstate10]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Oh please. Analytics absolutely know how to quantify the value of a time out and coaches are well aware of that value. 

This is nonsense. 
It is impossible to determine the value of a timeout in a vacuum. 
The timeout value depends on time of game, score, and consequences of not taking a timeout (which are myriad and unpredictable). 

My guess is that McD thought he would get the first TO back once refs realized that they hadn’t given Bills a chance to sub. 
 

Either refs were being stubborn aholes  or McD was somehow mistaken about being able to sub. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

5 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

The refs were not doing well with substitutions, or the play clock, or getting penalties called in a timely fashion.  Didn't feel like it was a well called game by the officials either.  From the stands there were definitely some missed calls on the saints defense.  

 

Was listening to NFL radio earlier and they were talking about how the 3-0 Chargers had 14 penalties called on them

[Dan]

18 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

The second one was easy to explain, the Bills only had 10 men on the field on NO 2 point conversion attempt.  

 

The first one, seemed McD was arguing that NO made substitutions and the refs didn't give the Bills time to make subs after that so they couldn't get the player off the field in time.  How legit Mcd's point was, hard to tell?

 

I will say it seems opponents must be seeing something on film that shows the Bills are slow to line up as this is the 2nd week now the other team ran plays fast before the defense was set.

This is an interesting point.  I recall after the Ravens game someone stating that the Ravens took advantage of the crowd noise when they were on offense, and snapped the ball quickly.  Thus, they effectively nullified the Bills’ defensive communication presnap.   And it worked on a few plays, at least. 
 

The Saints are known to run a very fast, up tempo offense (at least that’s what I read in the pregame write ups).  I wonder how much the crowd noise and speed of the NO offense contributed to Bills’ players not properly communicating and being slightly out of position on numerous plays?  The result was alot of missed tackles and generally sloppy looking play. 

 

It could be something to watch for.  Also, if there’s even a modicum of a

possibility of this being true; I really hope the coaches are smart enough to develop a counter system of quicker calls/communication schemes.   Because I can’t see the Bills fans being quieter, especially in the playoffs. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

24 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Was listening to NFL radio earlier and they were talking about how the 3-0 Chargers had 14 penalties called on them

 

Someone mentioned it i think on this thread - but when you play in the 1PM window against an 0-3 team, you might not get the A-team refs.  

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

13 minutes ago, Dan said:

This is an interesting point.  I recall after the Ravens game someone stating that the Ravens took advantage of the crowd noise when they were on offense, and snapped the ball quickly.  Thus, they effectively nullified the Bills’ defensive communication presnap.   And it worked on a few plays, at least. 
 

The Saints are known to run a very fast, up tempo offense (at least that’s what I read in the pregame write ups).  I wonder how much the crowd noise and speed of the NO offense contributed to Bills’ players not properly communicating and being slightly out of position on numerous plays?  The result was alot of missed tackles and generally sloppy looking play. 

 

It could be something to watch for.  Also, if there’s even a modicum of a

possibility of this being true; I really hope the coaches are smart enough to develop a counter system of quicker calls/communication schemes.   Because I can’t see the Bills fans being quieter, especially in the playoffs. 

 

I don't know if the issue was crowd noise as much as the Saints coaches saw on film, the Bills are maybe slow to line up after plays.  It also seemed like the Bills pass rush pushed forward well, but repeatedly left the middle wide open for Rattler to escape.  Could again be their coaches saw this on film and knew they'd often be facing two rookie DT's  so took advantage of it.  Supposedly Moore was this offensive genius, maybe he is and figured all this out. 

 

Saw a stats today too that the Bills went from giving up 8.9 yards per pay in Q1 to 3.9 the last 3 quarters, so maybe they did figure things out.  But do agree the coaches need to figure this out if that is what's going on. 

[Rochesterfan]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I think he had to take both of them. The first one was on the refs. The second one was on the coaches. Babich and whichever position coach hadn't got his right group out were the blame but ultimately that is a Head Coach accountability point. McDermott needs to leave his guys in no doubt that is not tolerated. In another situation burning that timeout hurts. 

 

I actually didn't like the timeouts at the end of the half this week. Josh had already used one, so we were down to two. He took the first on a 3rd and 2 with 1:36 left. Didn't like that. I was fine with how they used them last week on 2nd and 5 and then 3rd and 7. But to use one on 3rd and 2 when even if the Saints milk the clock there they have to run a play leaving about 50 seconds on the clock. If you stop them and it's 4th down THEN call a timeout, sure. Otherwise I'd let them play out 3rd and 2 and if they convert, and you can stop them on 1st down and get 2nd and long THEN call timeout. Calling timeout on 3rd and 2 there was not smart clock / situation management. 

 

I totally agree the first was on the Refs.  The Saints substituted and the Bills subbed and Bosa was getting off - when the Ref moved to allow the Saints to snap.

 

Some of it was Bosa not going fast, but usually they give them time to get off.  McD was furious with the Ref, but needed the TO to ensure the Saints didn’t get a free play that they could take a shot plus a free five yards.

 

The 2nd is ultimately on the coaching staff, but reality is that was on the player.  The Saints scored and some player was not paying attention because the Saints looked like they were going for 2 and big players/multiple TEs - I am guessing one of the DLine thought it was an extra point and went to the bench and wasn’t paying attention.

 

The 2nd attempt was well covered and handled - so my guess is that really was a player just not paying attention - could be a rookie or a call-up like Phillips, but it is a mistake that McD did the right thing to get them ready and save the points.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I totally agree the first was on the Refs.  The Saints substituted and the Bills subbed and Bosa was getting off - when the Ref moved to allow the Saints to snap.

 

Some of it was Bosa not going fast, but usually they give them time to get off.  McD was furious with the Ref, but needed the TO to ensure the Saints didn’t get a free play that they could take a shot plus a free five yards.

 

The 2nd is ultimately on the coaching staff, but reality is that was on the player.  The Saints scored and some player was not paying attention because the Saints looked like they were going for 2 and big players/multiple TEs - I am guessing one of the DLine thought it was an extra point and went to the bench and wasn’t paying attention.

 

The 2nd attempt was well covered and handled - so my guess is that really was a player just not paying attention - could be a rookie or a call-up like Phillips, but it is a mistake that McD did the right thing to get them ready and save the points.

 

 

 

Sure, a player switched off, but your position coaches are supposed to be all over that too. They should know at any given moment of the game who is in on each package. Agree McD did the right thing call timeout.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

33 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I don't know if the issue was crowd noise as much as the Saints coaches saw on film, the Bills are maybe slow to line up after plays.  It also seemed like the Bills pass rush pushed forward well, but repeatedly left the middle wide open for Rattler to escape.  Could again be their coaches saw this on film and knew they'd often be facing two rookie DT's  so took advantage of it.  Supposedly Moore was this offensive genius, maybe he is and figured all this out. 

 

Saw a stats today too that the Bills went from giving up 8.9 yards per pay in Q1 to 3.9 the last 3 quarters, so maybe they did figure things out.  But do agree the coaches need to figure this out if that is what's going on. 

They had a few stunts later in the game that i noticed to try and muck up the middle a bit more.  But 

 

I noticed we were a tad more aggressive early on to try and go against tendency during the first drive, and it didn't work.

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sure, a player switched off, but your position coaches are supposed to be all over that too. They should know at any given moment of the game who is in on each package. Agree McD did the right thing call timeout.

 

I was on the far end of the stadium so i didn't see the full TV response, but from what i could tell on that 1st timeout he was on the field dragging cords screaming at the refs.  Usually imo that means the ref who's supposed to stand there and hold up for substitutions didn't do it correctly.  There were also a lot of strange play clock issues that this crew did not have a good handle on.  

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

They had a few stunts later in the game that i noticed to try and muck up the middle a bit more.  But 

 

I noticed we were a tad more aggressive early on to try and go against tendency during the first drive, and it didn't work.

 

I was on the far end of the stadium so i didn't see the full TV response, but from what i could tell on that 1st timeout he was on the field dragging cords screaming at the refs.  Usually imo that means the ref who's supposed to stand there and hold up for substitutions didn't do it correctly.  There were also a lot of strange play clock issues that this crew did not have a good handle on.  

 

I sometimes wonder if the Bills sort of use a Bill Walsh approach on defense as almost seems like they have scripted plays.  We're going to do this and see what you do, then we will adjust as usually the team seems to play worst in Q1 on defense and gets better as game goes on.

 

Yes I believe that was McD's complaint, they didn't give the Bills time to properly substitute.

 

I do think the one time they were called for Too many men was on Bosa and the issue there was Bosa didn't show any urgency in getting of  the field, he trotted off and slowed down as he neared the sideline.  I'm guessing he will get a talking to on that one.    

[Rochesterfan]

9 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I sometimes wonder if the Bills sort of use a Bill Walsh approach on defense as almost seems like they have scripted plays.  We're going to do this and see what you do, then we will adjust as usually the team seems to play worst in Q1 on defense and gets better as game goes on.

 

Yes I believe that was McD's complaint, they didn't give the Bills time to properly substitute.

 

I do think the one time they were called for Too many men was on Bosa and the issue there was Bosa didn't show any urgency in getting of  the field, he trotted off and slowed down as he neared the sideline.  I'm guessing he will get a talking to on that one.    

 

That was the same play.  Bosa was coming off slowly - I think he felt he had time due to the substitution.

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

That was the same play.  Bosa was coming off slowly - I think he felt he had time due to the substitution.

 

 

 

The play I'm talking about the Bills got called for too many men on field.  On the play McD called TO, there was no penalty due to him calling TO.  

 

Think there were two separate situations?