Papal Conclave

[sherpa]

23 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

I don't think there's all that much anger, though certainly I can see far-lefty-leaning folk like you would pretend to get riled up.    But if you're really upset, stop dithering and do something about it.  

 

 

Better, consult the Bible on the concept of Papacy, and the history of that office.

Got me.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

3 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Better, consult the Bible on the concept of Papacy, and the history of that office.

Got me.

didn't you write that you attended Catholic Schools?  Then you know that we believe the Pope is the successor to Peter.  Many traditions are not biblically based.  Perhaps you were taught that a very large group (the vast majority) of early Christians were illiterate.  Thus the teaching through parables, statues, stations of the cross, Catholic art etc.  It's only relatively recently that everyman has begun to "interpret" the bible.  It's largely unfortunate imo.  Literal interpretation ignores how things were written at the time.  Many "reformed" churches do just that.  At any rate, trump posing as the next Martin Luther or John Calvin in full clerical regalia within 2 weeks of their deaths would not be looked upon kindly.

[sherpa]

22 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

didn't you write that you attended Catholic Schools?  Then you know that we believe the Pope is the successor to Peter.  Many traditions are not biblically based.  Perhaps you were taught that a very large group (the vast majority) of early Christians were illiterate.  Thus the teaching through parables, statues, stations of the cross, Catholic art etc.  It's only relatively recently that everyman has begun to "interpret" the bible.  It's largely unfortunate imo.  Literal interpretation ignores how things were written at the time.  

 

Yes I did attend through high school.

I don't believe the Pope has any legitimate authority, just as I don't believe Peter was ever designated as the head of anything.

Certainly the Apostles didn't, nor did Paul.

 

You expose yourself with your third sentence, claiming "many traditions are not biblically based."

 

That is correct. They are not.

Know what Jesus' main objection to the Pharisees was?

Know what he regularly disputed with them?

 

It was their importation of invented "traditions," which he viewed as nonsense, and what the Catholic Church has been doing for centuries, including the Pope, Mary, Saint reverence, Purgatory, indulgences and a host of other things of "tradition."

The traditions are inventions.

Same stuff.

 

Edited yesterday at 09:37 PM by sherpa

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

It's not the Vatican that's the problem.  trump doesn't care what I think.  He doesn't care what you think.  My congressman is a maga and my D senator wasn't allowed in the VA hospital for an inspection recently.  Not much a normal citizen can do in an authoritarian state until Nov 26, if trump hasn't banned elections by then.

 

I agree he doesn't care what you think, but he cares about your reaction.  That is to say, the crocodile tears shed about this or that.  I think he looks at your support for authoritarian overreach in his arrest, while noting your lack of outrage over your guy's pilfering of classified docs, and would just as soon poke a thumb in your eye for your hypocrisy. 

 

That it works so grandly obviously appeals to him and is worth whatever risk he feels he's taking.   I'm not suggesting it's right, I'm just suggesting it is what it is. 

 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by leh-nerd skin-erd

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

 

You expose yourself with your third sentence, claiming "many traditions are not biblically based."

I didn't expose myself.  I stated fact.  And 1.3 billion humans agree, to at least some extent, with me.  We say a profession of faith, usually the Nicene creed, at every mass.  Every mass, in every language is composed of the same basic prayers, in the same sequence.  I've gone to countries where I didn't know a word of the language but could still join in, in English.  That's also tradition.  And it's good.

 

You don't approve.  Who cares?  There's this thing called freedom of religion.  What it should mean is that you don't push yours on me and I won't push mine on you, especially through American government.  Conversely, you don't desecrate mine and I won't desecrate yours.  So how do you think trump would look in a Martin Luther costume?  Or in Mormon underwear trump was so prone to use to mock Romney?

 

Nicene creed circa 325AD:  

Nicene Creed, a Christian statement of faiththat is the only ecumenical creed because it is accepted as authoritative by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and major Protestant churches. The Apostles’ and Athanasian creeds are accepted by some but not all of these churches.

 

51 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

I agree he doesn't care what you think, but he cares about your reaction.  That is to say, the crocodile tears shed about this or that.  I think he looks at your support for authoritarian overreach in his arrest, while noting your lack of outrage over your guy's pilfering of classified docs, and would just as soon poke a thumb in your eye for your hypocrisy. 

 

That it works so grandly obviously appeals to him and is worth whatever risk he feels he's taking.   I'm not suggesting it's right, I'm just suggesting it is what it is. 

 

 

First off, Biden wasn't my guy.  That would be Bernie.  By saying it "worked", you mean I was offended.  Yup, he's great at that.  Not a trait I find valuable or useful in a president.  Not surprised that you do...

Edited 22 hours ago by Joe Ferguson forever

[Joe Ferguson forever]

2 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

Yes I did attend through high school.

I don't believe the Pope has any legitimate authority, just as I don't believe Peter was ever designated as the head of anything.

Certainly the Apostles didn't, nor did Paul.

 

You expose yourself with your third sentence, claiming "many traditions are not biblically based."

 

That is correct. They are not.

Know what Jesus' main objection to the Pharisees was?

Know what he regularly disputed with them?

 

It was their importation of invented "traditions," which he viewed as nonsense, and what the Catholic Church has been doing for centuries, including the Pope, Mary, Saint reverence, Purgatory, indulgences and a host of other things of "tradition."

The traditions are inventions.

Same stuff.

 

AI can be useful:

 

Matthew 16:18-20 discusses the authority of Peter and the establishment of the Church.

Key Verses Overview:

Verse 18: Jesus declares Peter as the rock on which He will build His Church. This signifies Peter's foundational role in the early Christian community.

Verse 19: Jesus gives Peter the "keys of the kingdom of heaven," symbolizing authority to bind and loose, which implies the power to make decisions regarding church doctrine and discipline.

Verse 20: Jesus instructs His disciples not to tell anyone that He is the Messiah, indicating a timing for the revelation of His identity.

Contextual Significance:

This passage is pivotal in Catholic tradition, where Peter is viewed as the first pope, establishing a line of apostolic succession.

The "keys" metaphor emphasizes the authority given to church leaders, which has implications for church governance and teaching.

Interpretations:

Different Christian denominations interpret these verses variably, particularly regarding the role of Peter and the nature of church authority.

Some view the "rock" as Peter himself, while others see it as Peter's confession of faith or Christ as the true foundation.

These verses highlight the establishment of the Church and the authority granted to its leaders, shaping Christian theology and ecclesiology.

[The Frankish Reich]

3 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

Better, consult the Bible on the concept of Papacy, and the history of that office.

Got me.

Matthew 16:18. FWIW. 

2 hours ago, sherpa said:

The traditions are inventions

Well, they’re all inventions. FWIW. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

I didn't expose myself.  I stated fact.  And 1.3 billion humans agree, to at least some extent, with me.  We say a profession of faith, usually the Nicene creed, at every mass.  Every mass, in every language is composed of the same basic prayers, in the same sequence.  I've gone to countries where I didn't know a word of the language but could still join in, in English.  That's also tradition.  And it's good.

 

You don't approve.  Who cares?  There's this thing called freedom of religion.  What it should mean is that you don't push yours on me and I won't push mine on you, especially through American government.  Conversely, you don't desecrate mine and I won't desecrate yours.  So how do you think trump would look in a Martin Luther costume?  Or in Mormon underwear trump was so prone to use to mock Romney?

 

Nicene creed circa 325AD:  

Nicene Creed, a Christian statement of faiththat is the only ecumenical creed because it is accepted as authoritative by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and major Protestant churches. The Apostles’ and Athanasian creeds are accepted by some but not all of these churches.

 

First off, Biden wasn't my guy.  That would be Bernie.  By saying it "worked", you mean I was offended.  Yup, he's great at that.  Not a trait I find valuable or useful in a president.  Not surprised that you do...

Well, no, I don’t think you were actually offended.  I used the phrase “crocodile tears”, meaning (from wiki) “is a false, insincere display of emotion such as a hypocrite crying fake tears”.   As for the traits you like in a prez, I addressed that too: circle back to the commentary on authoritarianism. 
 

I didn’t know you were a Bernista.  He was right there in 2016 when leadership made him stand down, and in 2020 he just wasn’t competitive against a candidate with as much baggage as JB.  I guess maybe a bad call in 2016, but the right call in 2020.  I can see why you’re a  bit sour here some days—getting skunked over a decade plus is pretty rough. 
 

 

[stevestojan]

Eh, I wish I could delete my first post in this thread but it’s been quoted. 
 

While I don’t believe in the book or the guy (for many reasons), and I have strong opinions on the entire organization, this wasn’t the thread to crap on the believers who find some sort of …. something …. in this whole thing. 
 

Apologies to those that this is important to. 

[sherpa]

11 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

AI can be useful:

 

Matthew 16:18-20 discusses the authority of Peter and the establishment of the Church.

Key Verses Overview:

Verse 18: Jesus declares Peter as the rock on which He will build His Church. This signifies Peter's foundational role in the early Christian community.

Verse 19: Jesus gives Peter the "keys of the kingdom of heaven," symbolizing authority to bind and loose, which implies the power to make decisions regarding church doctrine and discipline.

Verse 20: Jesus instructs His disciples not to tell anyone that He is the Messiah, indicating a timing for the revelation of His identity.

Contextual Significance:

This passage is pivotal in Catholic tradition, where Peter is viewed as the first pope, establishing a line of apostolic succession.

The "keys" metaphor emphasizes the authority given to church leaders, which has implications for church governance and teaching.

Interpretations:

Different Christian denominations interpret these verses variably, particularly regarding the role of Peter and the nature of church authority.

Some view the "rock" as Peter himself, while others see it as Peter's confession of faith or Christ as the true foundation.

These verses highlight the establishment of the Church and the authority granted to its leaders, shaping Christian theology and ecclesiology.

 

We don't need to waste time arguing about those verses.

I am extremely familiar with them and the Catholic interpretation of them as establishing Peter.

I am also extremely familiar with the Protestant interpretation of them as doing no such thing.

 In the immediately following verses from the "rock," after Jesus tells the disciples that he will go to Jerusalem, suffer and be killed, Peter rebukes him telling Jesus it can't happen.

Jesus tells him "get behind me Satan, you are a hindrance to me for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on those of man."

So immediately after supposedly naming him a the primary figure he calls him out?

 

There is absolutely no evidence that the Apostles ever viewed Peter as anything special, nor did Paul.

He was not the head of the early church in Jerusalem, nor in Rome.

He was a very important figure, but had no primacy. They argue about this even up to Gethsemane.

There is no evidence of any "Pope" figure for hundreds of years.

There is no basis for establishing Rome as the center of Christianity.

There is no basis for establishing the Catholic church as an "authority." Certainly no justification for purchasing indulgences.

These authority claims caused the first schism when the eastern orthodox church waved the bs flag in 1054, and the Protestant Reformation in 1517. 

The Catholic church claimed it was the only entity capable of interpreting the Bible, and prohibited translations into languages understood by the people.

 

The history is exactly similar to that of the Pharisees. Traditions added on that are not scriptural. Some are counter, like the Rosary.

Mary. Sainthood. The pope, (and papal history is incredibly wacky). Indulgences. Purgatory. Salvation including "works." Confession to a priest or anything else requiring an intermediary between God and his people. It goes on and on, but these man made inventions are exactly what Jesus accused the Pharisees of with their additions to Mosaic law.

What Jesus alone did was completely sufficient. Nothing and nobody needs to be added. No "near Gods" need to be invented and should not be venerated.

I have great regard for Catholics and other Christians, and hope they have a great conclave, but the "traditions" are man made.

 

And by the way, to address one of your comments, we recite the Nicene Creed at every service in my Lutheran Church, just as you do. we just say "and Christian Apostolic Church," instead of "Catholic."

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by sherpa

[4th&long]

At first cor. 3:9-11 and 10:4 the apostle Paul says Jesus is the rock or foundation the church is built on. Throughout the Gospels Jesus repeatedly says that none of the apostles is greater than the other. 

 

In Matthew 16 Jesus asked Peter a few versus before the ones everyone is quoting who the people were saying he, Jesus, was? Then Jesus asked the apostles who do you say I am? Peter answered "you are the Christ, the son of the living God". The conversation was based around Christ who he was, not Peter. Jesus was talking about himself being the foundation. 

[sherpa]

43 minutes ago, 4th&long said:

At first cor. 3:9-11 and 10:4 the apostle Paul says Jesus is the rock or foundation the church is built on. Throughout the Gospels Jesus repeatedly says that none of the apostles is greater than the other. 

 

In Matthew 16 Jesus asked Peter a few versus before the ones everyone is quoting who the people were saying he, Jesus, was? Then Jesus asked the apostles who do you say I am? Peter answered "you are the Christ, the son of the living God". The conversation was based around Christ who he was, not Peter. Jesus was talking about himself being the foundation. 

 

Completely agree.

As an aside, my favorite vs in the Bible is part of this for as Jesus responds to Peter's claim that Jesus is the Son of the living God, by stating that "this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my father in heaven."

In short, we are not capable, as humans, to perceive this. It must come from faith.

[LeviF]

No skin in this game. But I do find it amusing that libs want to pretend to be offended on behalf of romanists after:
 

Covington kids

Mocking of the sacrament by dem politicians

"Unlimited baby murder is good, akshually"

Forcing toddler boys to wear dresses

Perpetual indulgence

Suing nuns into the ground

gay "marriage"

etc. etc.

[K D]

6 minutes ago, LeviF said:

No skin in this game. But I do find it amusing that libs want to pretend to be offended on behalf of romanists after:
 

Covington kids

Mocking of the sacrament by dem politicians

"Unlimited baby murder is good, akshually"

Forcing toddler boys to wear dresses

Perpetual indulgence

Suing nuns into the ground

gay "marriage"

etc. etc.

Libs are offended by EVERYTHING. They are weak

[Joe Ferguson forever]

3 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

We don't need to waste time arguing about those verses.

I am extremely familiar with them and the Catholic interpretation of them as establishing Peter.

I am also extremely familiar with the Protestant interpretation of them as doing no such thing.

 In the immediately following verses from the "rock," after Jesus tells the disciples that he will go to Jerusalem, suffer and be killed, Peter rebukes him telling Jesus it can't happen.

Jesus tells him "get behind me Satan, you are a hindrance to me for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on those of man."

So immediately after supposedly naming him a the primary figure he calls him out?

 

There is absolutely no evidence that the Apostles ever viewed Peter as anything special, nor did Paul.

He was not the head of the early church in Jerusalem, nor in Rome.

He was a very important figure, but had no primacy. They argue about this even up to Gethsemane.

There is no evidence of any "Pope" figure for hundreds of years.

There is no basis for establishing Rome as the center of Christianity.

There is no basis for establishing the Catholic church as an "authority." Certainly no justification for purchasing indulgences.

These authority claims caused the first schism when the eastern orthodox church waved the bs flag in 1054, and the Protestant Reformation in 1517. 

The Catholic church claimed it was the only entity capable of interpreting the Bible, and prohibited translations into languages understood by the people.

 

The history is exactly similar to that of the Pharisees. Traditions added on that are not scriptural. Some are counter, like the Rosary.

Mary. Sainthood. The pope, (and papal history is incredibly wacky). Indulgences. Purgatory. Salvation including "works." Confession to a priest or anything else requiring an intermediary between God and his people. It goes on and on, but these man made inventions are exactly what Jesus accused the Pharisees of with their additions to Mosaic law.

What Jesus alone did was completely sufficient. Nothing and nobody needs to be added. No "near Gods" need to be invented and should not be venerated.

I have great regard for Catholics and other Christians, and hope they have a great conclave, but the "traditions" are man made.

 

And by the way, to address one of your comments, we recite the Nicene Creed at every service in my Lutheran Church, just as you do. we just say "and Christian Apostolic Church," instead of "Catholic."

 

 

aww, dude, did the nuns whack your knuckles too hard?  A 2000 year old institution has some blemishes.  I particularly disagree with clergy celibacy and no female priests.  My current priest is awful in that he's clearly MAGA.  You take the good with the bad.  I think the good, including Francis, far outweighs the bad.  You do you.  Enjoy your particular flavor.

My comment mentioned the Nicene creed being ecumenical, meaning that several later Christian iterations recite it.  Which means they all spring from the same root:  Catholicism- dating back to at least 325 AD.  So really, you've just chosen a different branch of the Catholic church.

Most importantly to me and what I'm most interested in is what you believe Jesus would think of trump, his tactics, his treatment of migrants and the poor, his saber rattling, his divisiveness, his lying, his adultery, his stealing etc.

[B-Man]

 

 

Back to the thread.

 

 

 

Conclave updates

World's eyes turn to Vatican City as papal conclave to elect next pope set to begin

In total, 133 cardinals will be voting during conclave, the most electors ever.

By Jon Haworth 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/International/worlds-eyes-turn-vatican-city-papal-conclave-elect/story?id=121507440

 

 

 

 

 

As Vatican staff take oath of secrecy for 2025 conclave, some contentious issues await the new pope

By Chris Livesay

 

Vatican City — All the Vatican staff who will be involved in the 2025 conclave to pick the late Pope Francis' successor  — from the cleaners to the cooks and custodians — have taken their oath of secrecy. The punishment for leaking information about the ancient Catholic Church ritual is immediate excommunication.

 

The 133 cardinal electors tasked with electing the next pontiff will take their own oath on Wednesday, inside the Sistine Chapel, as the conclave gets underway. 

They have all arrived at the Vatican for the gathering, and they've been seen this week going in and out of meetings every day, where they discuss the merits of the men among their own ranks — any one of whom could be chosen as the next pope.

 

From Wednesday, the cardinal electors will gather in the chapel, beneath Michelangelo's renowned Last Judgement fresco, to decide who should lead the world's 1.4 billion Catholics.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/conclave-2025-pope-francis-replacement-contentious-issues/

 

,

[4th&long]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Back to the thread.

 

 

 

Conclave updates

World's eyes turn to Vatican City as papal conclave to elect next pope set to begin

In total, 133 cardinals will be voting during conclave, the most electors ever.

By Jon Haworth 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/International/worlds-eyes-turn-vatican-city-papal-conclave-elect/story?id=121507440

 

 

 

 

 

As Vatican staff take oath of secrecy for 2025 conclave, some contentious issues await the new pope

By Chris Livesay

 

Vatican City — All the Vatican staff who will be involved in the 2025 conclave to pick the late Pope Francis' successor  — from the cleaners to the cooks and custodians — have taken their oath of secrecy. The punishment for leaking information about the ancient Catholic Church ritual is immediate excommunication.

 

The 133 cardinal electors tasked with electing the next pontiff will take their own oath on Wednesday, inside the Sistine Chapel, as the conclave gets underway. 

They have all arrived at the Vatican for the gathering, and they've been seen this week going in and out of meetings every day, where they discuss the merits of the men among their own ranks — any one of whom could be chosen as the next pope.

 

From Wednesday, the cardinal electors will gather in the chapel, beneath Michelangelo's renowned Last Judgement fresco, to decide who should lead the world's 1.4 billion Catholics.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/conclave-2025-pope-francis-replacement-contentious-issues/

 

,

***** you, we'll discuss what we want to. 

[US Egg]

17 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

We talking greatest musicals here? Anyways, who can argue with this? 

[sherpa]

3 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

aww, dude, did the nuns whack your knuckles too hard?  A 2000 year old institution has some blemishes.  I particularly disagree with clergy celibacy and no female priests.  My current priest is awful in that he's clearly MAGA.  You take the good with the bad.  I think the good, including Francis, far outweighs the bad.  You do you.  Enjoy your particular flavor.

My comment mentioned the Nicene creed being ecumenical, meaning that several later Christian iterations recite it.  Which means they all spring from the same root:  Catholicism- dating back to at least 325 AD.  So really, you've just chosen a different branch of the Catholic church.

Most importantly to me and what I'm most interested in is what you believe Jesus would think of trump, his tactics, his treatment of migrants and the poor, his saber rattling, his divisiveness, his lying, his adultery, his stealing etc.

 

It has more than "blemishes."

It has self proclaimed inventions purported as truth, and I've named a bunch of them, including the Papacy and the concept of ex cathedra infallibility. The Assumption of Mary, her permanent virginity.

These concepts are nonsense.

I haven't chosen a different branch from the Catholic Church.

I have chosen a church which does not include inventions or traditions codified into accurate, self proclaimed theology.

Still a big fan of my Catholic friends and relatives.

 

My path away was led, unintentionally by my wife.

When we first dated, I brought her to my Catholic church, which we attended regularly.

After marriage and moving to the San Francisco Bay area, when we attended church, she, brought up as Lutheran, would ask me questions about various things, like statues, candles, Jesus always on the cross, Mary stuff and I had no response as to why these things existed.

Eventually, I looked at it and realized it was all tradition and opinion without scriptural proof, which is precisely what precipitated the Reformation.

 

Regarding Trump, I will never offer any opinion on what God thinks of anyone.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

38 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

It has more than "blemishes."

It has self proclaimed inventions purported as truth, and I've named a bunch of them, including the Papacy and the concept of ex cathedra infallibility. The Assumption of Mary, her permanent virginity.

These concepts are nonsense.

I haven't chosen a different branch from the Catholic Church.

I have chosen a church which does not include inventions or traditions codified into accurate, self proclaimed theology.

Still a big fan of my Catholic friends and relatives.

 

My path away was led, unintentionally by my wife.

When we first dated, I brought her to my Catholic church, which we attended regularly.

After marriage and moving to the San Francisco Bay area, when we attended church, she, brought up as Lutheran, would ask me questions about various things, like statues, candles, Jesus always on the cross, Mary stuff and I had no response as to why these things existed.

Eventually, I looked at it and realized it was all tradition and opinion without scriptural proof, which is precisely what precipitated the Reformation.

 

Regarding Trump, I will never offer any opinion on what God thinks of anyone.

whatever floats your boat, especially as a couple.  My wife was raised Anglican.  I like the liberalism within that church.  Could've gone Episcopalian here but she could see I'm fully indoctrinated.  I have Jewish friends who feel the same way:  It's part of their identity.  She's quite pragmatic.  She doesn't feel the team you choose much matters.  It's that you choose one and follow it.,  The important stuff is all the same.  Love one another.  I enjoy the intellectual aspects and just disagree with you once again.

Edited 4 hours ago by Joe Ferguson forever