aristocrat Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 why would washington trade him? they're bringing in a rookie qb and need all the weapons for him. plus you can pay him while the rookie qb is under the low contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 5 hours ago, John from Riverside said: We need our own draft picks We need good players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Just spend the draft capital on really good young prospects coming out in this years draft that can be here for 4+ years at a good price for the future . Beans will shake the trees like he always does for a vet that is a cheaper option Diggs is going no where this year due to his cap hit . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) On 2/21/2024 at 7:19 AM, FireChans said: We talk a lot about DHop, about Evans, about all these older dudes. Let’s talk about some younger WR’s who have to be sick wasting their careers away. Terry will be 29 years old in the upcoming season. He is entering the last year of his “big” contract before the potential out. And he is an “old guard” player with new and shiny head coach Dan Quinn taking the reins. If traded pre 6/1, he will have a cap hit of $7M to his new team, which is relatively cheap. With Stef on his way out potentially next year, this sets Josh up with an “in his prime” WR ready to take over as WR1. Stef could also be included in the package, but then we would be talking post 6/1 otherwise the financials get wonky. Is he intriguing? Is he an upgrade over $10M AAV for a Mooney or Curtis Samuel? His price tag may be as high as a first or a second and other stuff. He'd be great to acquire but he won't be available. And even if he were, he'd be too expensive for us. You say he will have a cap hit of $7M to his new team? Spotrac has him at $15.15M purely in base salary. If we had him, would our fans want him to be traded? Even if we had to pay him $29M NOT to play for us? Hell, no! We do indeed talk a lot about guys like DHop and Evans. But there's a reason they aren't on the team. They were too expensive last year even when we had more money than we do now. That DHop / Evans talk existed, but it was wasted breath. Edited February 22 by Thurman#1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 On 2/21/2024 at 10:31 PM, Sweats said: The Diggs trade was terrible. I mean, sure we got a quality WR who's definitely one of the best at the position, however, when you consider that we traded our pick to Minnesota to get Diggs, we also gave up the chance to draft Justin Jefferson, who Minnie selected with OUR pick, i might add. You give me the option of Diggs or Jefferson and i know who i'm picking alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll day long......and it ain't Diggs. Sorry.......not sorry. The Diggs trade was great. For both sides. Slightly better for Minny, especially in terms of the cap? Yeah, very arguable. But the Bills needed a vet who would be doing it all that year. Jefferson finally turned out to be great even as a rookie, but nobody expected him to be that good that fast. Nobody. If we had not made the trade, we might easily have drafted Jefferson. Or someone else. For the pick they had to give up, Diggs was a sensational value for the Bills. The fact that the Vikes made the one single absolute best pick in that position doesn't affect how valuable Diggs has been to this team. What if we give up that pick and Jefferson gets picked two spots before us? Because the Vikes want him bad or because everyone knows the Bills want a great WR? Could easily have happened. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorspikes51 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 On 2/21/2024 at 8:31 AM, Sweats said: The Diggs trade was terrible. I mean, sure we got a quality WR who's definitely one of the best at the position, however, when you consider that we traded our pick to Minnesota to get Diggs, we also gave up the chance to draft Justin Jefferson, who Minnie selected with OUR pick, i might add. You give me the option of Diggs or Jefferson and i know who i'm picking alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll day long......and it ain't Diggs. Sorry.......not sorry. Why thank you, sir.....i didn't even know i was in the running. I wonder what you said when the trade was made. Somehow I doubt it was Gimme Justin Jefferson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweats Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 5 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said: I wonder what you said when the trade was made. Somehow I doubt it was Gimme Justin Jefferson It was more like, "......anybody but Diggs". True story. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) On 2/21/2024 at 7:57 AM, FireChans said: I find that spotrac is the most accurate website IRT cap intricacies and they say the numbers are absolutely clear that we can move off from Diggs this year and make financial sense doing so. His salary becoming completely guaranteed on 3/17 is actually noted on their website. Prior to 3/17, we lose 3M against the cap to cut him. After 3/17, we lose 21M to cut him. After 6/1, we save 19M in 2024 to cut him. Post 6/1 releases effectively spread the dead cap over two seasons, which is why it’s more affordable, however it means you are still taking on the same hit in the next year, i.e. the 2025 hit remains the same regardless if he is cut post 6/1 in 2024 or early in 2025. So anyone saying it makes sense to do it in 2025 but not post 6/1 2024 is 100% completely wrong, because the cap savings in 2025 are the same So, unfortunately, 3/17 ain’t gonna change anything lol. Spotrac does NOT say it makes sense for us to cut Diggs this year. That's why they list him as a potential out in 2025. Not 2024. And there is no earthly way for us to save $19M in 2024 by cutting him as you claim. No earthly way. The dead cap money for cutting Diggs is $31.096M. That's if we cut him today. That money has already been paid to him, and there's no way to reduce it. You can put off some of the cap hit to next year, but the total will be the same. But to do that, to put off some of the cap hit to next year, you would have to wait until after 6/1. And if you do that, three months previous you will have guaranteed this year's salary. Very much NOT a good idea if you're going to cut him. On Spotrac, look at his bonuses. Three years of unamortized signing bonus of $4.3M, four years of unamortized option bonuses of $3.2M per year and four years of unamortized restructure bonuses of $1.349M. All already paid to him. If we cut him before this year's salary is guaranteed, we still would have to pay $31.096M dead cap this year. Spotrac does NOT say it makes sense for us to cut Diggs this year. That's why they list him as a potential out in 2025. Edited February 22 by Thurman#1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 Just so I don’t have to repeat myself. 5 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: The dead cap money for cutting Diggs is $31.096M. That's if we cut him today. That money has already been paid to him, and there's no way to reduce it. You can put off some of the cap hit to next year, but the total will be the same. On Spotrac, look at his bonuses. Three years of unamortized signing bonus of $4.3M, four years of unamortized option bonuses of $3.2M per year and four years of unamortized restructure bonuses of $1.349M. All already paid to him. If we cut him before this year's salary is guaranteed, we still would have to pay $31.096M dead cap this year. Spotrac lists him as a potential out in 2025, not 2024. It's right there on Spotrac's Diggs page. They do NOT say it makes sense for us to do so. That's why they list him as a potential out in 2025. 22 hours ago, FireChans said: Those numbers are straight from Spotrac. The dead money in 2025 for a post 6/1 cut is the same whether he gets cuts post 6/1 or in league year 2025. This is for league year 2024. This is for league year 2025. Per Spotrac, cutting Diggs post 6/1 in 2024 saves us 19M this year, and 5M next year. But no Diggs in 2024, obviously. Cutting Diggs next year saves us no money in 2024, again obviously, and the same 5M next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 17 minutes ago, FireChans said: Just so I don’t have to repeat myself. Um, yeah, nobody's arguing that the dead money in 2025 for a post 6/1 cut is different from cutting him later. I think everyone knows this. I know I do. But it's irrelevant to what we're talking about, unless we're talking past each other in some way. You said "I find that spotrac is the most accurate website IRT cap intricacies and they say the numbers are absolutely clear that we can move off from Diggs this year and make financial sense doing so." And they do NOT say that. Again, they say that 2025 is his year as a potential out. But again, if he gets cut today, the dead money is already $31M. But in a couple of weeks, this year's salary will guarantee. Cutting him at that point would give us a dead cap hit of around $49M. If you want me to understand and take seriously your little chart there, I need to see the whole page, not a small little excerpt of a page. Send a link. What I'm talking about is on the main Stef Diggs page on Spotrac. Which is where they say that his potential out is 2025, NOT 2024. I'm sure you already know how to get there, but here's a link to make it quicker for you. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/stefon-diggs-16872/ Edited February 22 by Thurman#1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said: Um, yeah, nobody's arguing that the dead money in 2025 for a post 6/1 cut is different from cutting him later. I think everyone knows this. I know I do. But it's irrelevant to what we're talking about, unless we're talking past each other in some way. You said "I find that spotrac is the most accurate website IRT cap intricacies and they say the numbers are absolutely clear that we can move off from Diggs this year and make financial sense doing so." And they do NOT say that. But again, if he gets cut today, the dead money is already $31M. But in a couple of weeks, this year's salary will guarantee. Cutting him at that point would give us a dead cap hit of around $49M. If you want me to understand and take seriously your little chart there, I need to see the whole page, not a small little excerpt of a page. Send a link. What I'm talking about is on the main Stef Diggs page on Spotrac. Which is where they say that his potential out is 2025, NOT 2024. I'm sure you already know how to get there, but here's a link to make it quicker for you. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/stefon-diggs-16872/ Dude those are photos FROM Spotrac. Lol. Just go to the page. I just cut them out so you can look at the numbers and see for yourself. The numbers are clear on the website. $19M in cap savings this season does make financial sense. $5M in savings next season makes less sense, but as that’s the same kind of savings we’d get moving on in 2025 anyway, it’s kinda moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 13 hours ago, FireChans said: Dude those are photos FROM Spotrac. Lol. Just go to the page. I just cut them out so you can look at the numbers and see for yourself. The numbers are clear on the website. $19M in cap savings this season does make financial sense. $5M in savings next season makes less sense, but as that’s the same kind of savings we’d get moving on in 2025 anyway, it’s kinda moot. I did go to the page, the page I linked to, anyway, the standard Diggs page. There is simply nothing like that on it. Again, send me a link or directions or something. The standard Diggs page I linked to does not have anything like that. Just because it's on Spotrac does not mean it's the same page I am looking at. Spotrac has hundreds of thousands of pages. Send me a link to the one you are looking at. Perhaps you are clicking on something after you get to the standard page? If so, you are looking at a different page, with a different link. And no, nineteen million in cap savings doesn't make sense. Not when the saved $19M (his $18.5M base salary and a $250K workout bonus and a $255K roster bonus) is offset by at the same time losing $31.096K in dead money. Total those out and it means we're losing $12M on the cap in order NOT to have him play here. And again, to save that $19M, he MUST be cut before the league year starts in March. Which means all of the dead cap would hit the cap this year. Sorry, man. Again, there's a reason they say right in the middle of the table with all of his contract numbers broken down that his potential out year is 2025. Right here, on the same page I linked to before. See where it says "Potential out: 2025" at the bottom of the screenshot? Edited February 23 by Thurman#1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 41 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: I did go to the page, the page I linked to, anyway, the standard Diggs page. There is simply nothing like that on it. Again, send me a link or directions or something. The standard Diggs page I linked to does not have anything like that. Just because it's on Spotrac does not mean it's the same page I am looking at. Spotrac has hundreds of thousands of pages. Send me a link to the one you are looking at. Perhaps you are clicking on something after you get to the standard page? If so, you are looking at a different page, with a different link. And no, nineteen million in cap savings doesn't make sense. Not when the saved $19M (his $18.5M base salary and a $250K workout bonus and a $255K roster bonus) is offset by at the same time losing $31.096K in dead money. Total those out and it means we're losing $12M on the cap in order NOT to have him play here. And again, to save that $19M, he MUST be cut before the league year starts in March. Which means all of the dead cap would hit the cap this year. Sorry, man. Again, there's a reason they say right in the middle of the table with all of his contract numbers broken down that his potential out year is 2025. Right here, on the same page I linked to before. See where it says "Potential out: 2025" at the bottom of the screenshot? Click the red X on the right. Then you can debate the numbers with the website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 3 hours ago, FireChans said: Click the red X on the right. Then you can debate the numbers with the website. Thanks for finally helping me find that. I appreciate it. It did help me completely understand your argument finally. And it did point out the numbers I'd misunderstood before. But if I'm arguing with the website, so are you. For the - fourth time? fifth time? - I have to point out that you are misrepresenting what Spotrac says, and what they think. You said this: On 2/21/2024 at 7:57 AM, FireChans said: I find that spotrac is the most accurate website IRT cap intricacies and they say the numbers are absolutely clear that we can move off from Diggs this year and make financial sense doing so. And they did not say that. Nor anything close. That is what you apparently think about their numbers. It is NOT what they think. It is your interpretation of their numbers. They make it extremely clear when they think. They put it in words. To wit: I've pointed this out four or five times now. Each time you have responded with deafening silence on this point. They do NOT think 2024 is a potential out. ONLY YOU DO!! They apparently think it would be just as dumb as I and nearly everyone does to have Diggs cost $31M on the cap and NOT play for the Bills. A guy who put up 1183 yards last year and you want to increase the distance we are under the cap by $3M (I WAS WRONG ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!!!!) and declare $31M a complete waste by making it completely impossible for that money to produce anything with him off the team. Throw the guy with the seventh most catches and the 13th most yards off the team and pay $31M for the right to do so. That is completely and utterly bonkers. They do not list it as a potential out. And for very good reason. You said "they say the numbers are absolutely clear that we can move off from Diggs this year and make financial sense doing so." Point out where they said this or anything like this. You can't. Because they didn't. They don't even think there's any realistic potential of it happening ... till 2025. Edited February 23 by Thurman#1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Thanks for finally helping me find that. I appreciate it. It did help me completely understand your argument finally. And it did point out the numbers I'd misunderstood before. But if I'm arguing with the website, so are you. For the - fourth time? fifth time? - I have to point out that you are misrepresenting what Spotrac says, and what they think. You said this: And they did not say that. Nor anything close. That is what you apparently think about their numbers. It is NOT what they think. It is your interpretation of their numbers. They make it extremely clear when they think. They put it in words. To wit: I've pointed this out four or five times now. Each time you have responded with deafening silence on this point. They do NOT think 2024 is a potential out. ONLY YOU DO!! They apparently think it would be just as dumb as I and nearly everyone does to have Diggs cost $31M on the cap and NOT play for the Bills. A guy who put up 1183 yards last year and you want to increase the distance we are under the cap by $3M (I WAS WRONG ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!!!!) and declare $31M a complete waste by making it completely impossible for that money to produce anything with him off the team. Throw the guy with the seventh most catches and the 13th most yards off the team and pay $31M for the right to do so. That is completely and utterly bonkers. They do not list it as a potential out. And for very good reason. You said "they say the numbers are absolutely clear that we can move off from Diggs this year and make financial sense doing so." Point out where they said this or anything like this. You can't. Because they didn't. They don't even think there's any realistic potential of it happening ... till 2025. They do list 2025 as a potential out. They also say we can say can cut Diggs post 6/1 and save $19M in space in 2024. As far as I know, Spotrac doesn’t use post 6/1 moves as potential outs because they are pretty rare in general. You are very confident and quite brazen about your interpretation of Spotrac for a guy who needed 2 pages of directions to figure out how to use the website. Edited February 23 by FireChans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 2 hours ago, FireChans said: They do list 2025 as a potential out. They also say we can say can cut Diggs post 6/1 and save $19M in space in 2024. As far as I know, Spotrac doesn’t use post 6/1 moves as potential outs because they are pretty rare in general. You are very confident and quite brazen about your interpretation of Spotrac for a guy who needed 2 pages of directions to figure out how to use the website. I didn't need 2 pages of directions. I need one line, which you refused to provide for two pages. Probably because what was revealed there in the context of the whole page is such weak sauce. And you needed two pages also to see that they do not list him as a potential out in 2024. We heard nothing about that from you till now despite me pointing it out again and again and again. Took you two pages to notice, apparently. And I love this from you, "'As far as I know, Spotrac doesn't use post 6/1 moves as potential outs because they are pretty rare in general." "As far as you know," meaning you are completely guessing. Pretty brazen, dude, just flat-out guessing like that. What's infinitely more likely is the wildly obvious reason why Spotrac - and everyone else in the world but you, apparently - thinks it would be an even worse Idea to cut Diggs post 6/1. Because it would cost the Bills much more money. If they cut Diggs now, they'd have to deal with $31M of dead cap. If they cut him anytime after his 2024 salary guarantees on 3/17, the dead cap hit for cutting him jumps up from $31M to $50M. His guaranteed salary for the year, $18.5M, would be added to the dead cap money, as well as his roster bonus and most likely his work out bonus as well, a total of $19M more dead money. Yeah, only $8M of it would be due this year, but that would leave $42M of dead money for one guy in 2025 ... a guy who at that point would not played with us since the 2023 season two years before. He'd probably have been paid most of his workout bonus as well by the time he was cut That's what would happen if we had made him a post 6/1 cut. Instead of paying $31M over one year to NOT have him play for us, that dumb move would have us pay $49.5M over two years to NOT have him play for us. Even stupider than cutting him now. His potential out is in 2025 for very good and obvious reasons. The only thing dumber than paying $31M dead cap money for the privilege of NOT having an excellent player play for us ... is paying $50M dead cap money instead for the privilege of NOT having an excellent player play for us. If the If the Bills want to borrow money from the 2025 cap to clear a bit of 2024 space, there are many ways to do it that would be INFINITELY smarter, ways that would NOT require them to pay $19M EXTRA for a player to NOT play for us. Edited February 23 by Thurman#1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: I didn't need 2 pages of directions. I need one line, which you refused to provide for two pages. Probably because what was revealed there in the context of the whole page is such weak sauce. And you needed two pages also to see that they do not list him as a potential out in 2024. We heard nothing about that from you till now despite me pointing it out again and again and again. Took you two pages to notice, apparently. And I love this from you, "'As far as I know, Spotrac doesn't use post 6/1 moves as potential outs because they are pretty rare in general." "As far as you know," meaning you are completely guessing. Pretty brazen, dude, just flat-out guessing like that. What's infinitely more likely is the wildly obvious reason why Spotrac - and everyone else in the world but you, apparently - thinks it would be an even worse Idea to cut Diggs post 6/1. Because it would cost the Bills much more money. If they cut Diggs now, they'd have to deal with $31M of dead cap. If they cut him anytime after his 2024 salary guarantees on 3/17, the dead cap hit for cutting him jumps up from $31M to $49.5M. Yeah, only $8M of it would be due this year, but that would leave $41.5M of dead money for one guy in 2025. For a guy who had not played with us since 2023 if we had made him a post 6/1 cut. Instead of paying $31M over one year to NOT have him play for us, that dumb move would have us pay $49.5M over two years to NOT have him play for us. Even stupider than cutting him now. His potential out is in 2025 for very good and obvious reasons. 2025 dead cap hit with a post 6/1 cut is $22M, which is the same as if we cut him pre 6/1 in 2025. These numbers are all readily available. And yeah, I’ve used Spotrac for years, and I’ve never seen them call post 6/1 designations as potential outs. It’s an educated guess, because I have experience with the website. unlike you, who treat it like gospel when it supports your opinion, dispute it as “wrong” when it doesn’t, and don’t even know how to use it lmao. You also don’t know the definition of brazen, but nice comeback attempt? Edited February 23 by FireChans 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillenger4 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 15 minutes ago, FireChans said: 2025 dead cap hit with a post 6/1 cut is $22M, which is the same as if we cut him pre 6/1 in 2025. These numbers are all readily available. And yeah, I’ve used Spotrac for years, and I’ve never seen them call post 6/1 designations as potential outs. It’s an educated guess, because I have experience with the website. unlike you, who treat it like gospel when it supports your opinion, dispute it as “wrong” when it doesn’t, and don’t even know how to use it lmao. You also don’t know the definition of brazen, but nice comeback attempt? and... mic drop! BOOM goes the dyno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) Updated info for @Thurman#1. Let's look at Xavien Howard's recent contract situation. We all know he was cut with a post 6/1 designation prior to getting his first day of league year salary. Here's the work the good people at Spotrac.com did for Mr Howard, who some might have argued was IMPOSSIBLE to move on from. Then let's look back at the glorious work done by those same good people for one Stefon Diggs In summary: also cc: @BillsFanForever19 Edited February 23 by FireChans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) 16 hours ago, FireChans said: 2025 dead cap hit with a post 6/1 cut is $22M, which is the same as if we cut him pre 6/1 in 2025. These numbers are all readily available. And yeah, I’ve used Spotrac for years, and I’ve never seen them call post 6/1 designations as potential outs. It’s an educated guess, because I have experience with the website. unlike you, who treat it like gospel when it supports your opinion, dispute it as “wrong” when it doesn’t, and don’t even know how to use it lmao. You also don’t know the definition of brazen, but nice comeback attempt? You keep using cap numbers for specific years to attempt to get us to look away from the obvious disaster this move would be. So let me focus you, and anyone bothering to read, on the dumb move you're suggesting. Answer this simple question. If Stefon Digg is still on the roster after 3/17, his salary will guarantee. Once his salary guarantees, if they cut him at the time you're suggesting, will that guaranteed money hit the Bills salary cap as dead cap or not? I'm not asking about the year. I'm asking if he's cut, will it or will it not hit our dead cap total? Because unless you want to argue that it will disappear and never hit the Bills cap, you are saying you think it is a move the Bills should consider to add $18.5M to the cap for two things, first the right to watch Stef NOT play for the Bills and second the ability to move some cap money from the 2023 cap to later cap years. And the thing is, they can move money from 2023 to later cap years in other ways - restructures and other such vastly more sensible options - without adding $18.5M to their cap without even seeing a guy play for us in exchange for accepting the dead cap hit. Oh, and I fully understand the word brazen. One really good example of brazen behavior would be a guy arguing that his guess about something - what Spotrac precisely means by "Potential Out," for instance - must be a fact even though he hasn't checked it because it fits his narrative and he's spent a bunch of time on a website ... though, he has again NOT checked his facts. That's shameless behavior, and thus brazen. Of course, brazen people often don't recognize that they're being shameless. In fact, that's a symptom. The brazen guy would next never back down. He's keep right on arguing that he must be right even without proof, because he thinks it's so. But again, if Diggs' contract is guaranteed and he's then cut, post 6/1 or not, will that guaranteed salary hit the Bills dead cap? And again, don't try the whole "well, this year is this and this year is that" nonsense. Will it have to be accounted for on the cap or not if he's cut? Edited February 24 by Thurman#1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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