X’s and O’s Thread

[34-78-83]

@HoofHearted, It appears to me in watching the games and some of the all-22's that Terrel Bernard has become a consistent performer throughout the season with not only his play making abilities, but also his zone coverage and gap filling responsibilities. The focus of the fans and media has kinda come off of him for a number of weeks now as the team has struggled in other areas. Can you confirm this from a full season with what you've seen of him on tape? What opportunity areas do you still see for growth with him?

 

Also, It feels like Dodson, while certainly a limited player in coverage, has played up near his ceiling when out there and contributed without being too major of a liability. Do you see that similarly?

[mrags]

49 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This whole spacing thing didn’t show up until this year when we started running a mesh concept quite a bit. Mesh creates a rub across the field and uses a snag that sits over top of it. This gives you both a man beater concept and zone beater concept all within the same full field concept. 

 

The problem I see with this is the X and H are in same exact spot to start the play. Generally running a similar route (at least general direction) and the Y is crossing right into the same zone as both of them. So to start, 2 players are lined up and running in the same general vicinity and the Y is about to enter the same zone. So 3 DBs/Ss/LBs don’t have to move a whole lot to cover a small space. 
 

I’m not an X and O guy. So maybe I’m wrong. But I know what I see on a weekly basis. And that’s multiple receivers running in the same general vicinity and defenders crowding those zones. 
 

someone brought it up the other day here. When was the last time you saw receivers just wide open and no one around them. Haven’t really seen it since Daboll left. I don’t know what the difference is, but there’s a clear difference and that’s coming from a guy that played 2 months of organized football in his life. If I can see it, DCs can see it. and honestly, it’s not really arguable as our offense has pretty much looked like trash for the last 16 games or so. So right around when everyone figured out what Dorsey was all about. Since then we’ve been trash. 

[BCAS Baritone]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Thanks, Hoof.



Without having access to the All-22 and without having the necessary knowledge to parse through it even if I did, I'm not able to suss out the truth of this statement. I DID see with my own eyes on TV every week that two receivers (and sometimes even three) tended to wind up in the same cluster of space on the field a bit too often for my liking, though I can't say whether this was due simply to poor execution, or to the theoretical poor use of spacing about which I'm asking.

 

 

I think option routes can contribute to that, especially if all the receivers have an option route.  Basically, you want to run to the empty part of the field.  If everybody sees the same thing, that a certain part of the field is open, they all run to it.  And they have a nice group hug when they all show up together.

[boyst]

3 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

The biggest and most important thing (and probably the tallest task) is to rebuild the confidence in that offensive room. He has to command the room from the jump, show a clear direction for where he wants to take things, and be able to provide answers when questions ultimately arise. If he can’t do that then it doesn’t matter what we do as far as scheme is concerned.

Can you provide more detail? Are you speaking of teams struggling to find competent players or just that they are harder to project to the next level now?

In general there are few blue chip prospects to come out into the league and dominate. It is very hard to project them in the NFL now almost similar to TE's to develop. Then by that time they're almost too old and ready to be replaced due to various reasons.

 

I can't just decide if it's the college system is that different or the elite level athletes are that much more advanced to the NCAA qualifed NFL athlete.

[RevWarRifleman]

A very good opening to the thread, Hoof Hearted. For whatever it's worth, I say lets (meaning, the players) regroup, support one another fiercely,

work harder in practice, and bring a new intensity level onto the playing field come Sunday and expect to win.

 

 

FWIW, that's my 2 cents.         Go Bills!

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Hmmmm….

 

Recently found yourself with a lot more time on your hands, Ke— Hoof?

I kid, I kid.

 

Really, I love the idea of this thread. I appreciate being able to talk X’s and O’s Of the game. I like to think that I know a decent amount about the game but am always reminded that my perspective is tiny compared to some. Nothing specific comes to mind yet, but here are some general ideas that I would love to know more about:

 

Topics of interest offensively:

- presnap formations, reads, philosophy and purposes behind them

- route concepts vs specific coverages we see

- run schemes

- 

 

Defensively

- coverages and how specific drops/alignments/techniques are tells

- pressure packages/blitz concepts…specifically how they relate to coverages

- pash rushing techniques from the interior 

- specific strengths of our personnel 

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

@HoofHearted, It appears to me in watching the games and some of the all-22's that Terrel Bernard has become a consistent performer throughout the season with not only his play making abilities, but also his zone coverage and gap filling responsibilities. The focus of the fans and media has kinda come off of him for a number of weeks now as the team has struggled in other areas. Can you confirm this from a full season with what you've seen of him on tape? What opportunity areas do you still see for growth with him?

 

Also, It feels like Dodson, while certainly a limited player in coverage, has played up near his ceiling when out there and contributed without being too major of a liability. Do you see that similarly?

Bernard has certainly been coming along. He's still learning and improving, but he's been trending upwards the entire season which is really good to see. He plays extremely fast and has the same type of play style as Milano which is really good to see. Athletically he's got it - he lacks size but is able to overcome a lot of situations because of his athleticism. More often than not he's able to use his athleticism to bend around blockers working up to the second level, but when he does get engaged he naturally gets pushed because of his lack of size. What I love is that in those situations he stays active - actively working feet - actively working escapes - always trying to get off the block and more often than not does. In Coverage he's at his best in pattern match schemes where he's able to drop to a specific player and everything turns into man eventually. Where I think he can get caught at times right now (and its certainly not just him) is awareness when he's working a true zone drop - understanding where his fit in the coverage is and how to relate to routes in those fits. A lot of eyes in backfield pulling him off simple underneath coverages.

 

Dodson has been improved with more reps as well. Obviously he's a liability in the pass game due to lack of athleticism, but he has been much more consistent recently in run fits and pulling the trigger, but there are still lapses there. He plays slower than Bernard, but I've seen that improve as well as the season has progressed. He's a decent back-up, but he can't be relied upon to be an every down backer.

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, mrags said:

The problem I see with this is the X and H are in same exact spot to start the play. Generally running a similar route (at least general direction) and the Y is crossing right into the same zone as both of them. So to start, 2 players are lined up and running in the same general vicinity and the Y is about to enter the same zone. So 3 DBs/Ss/LBs don’t have to move a whole lot to cover a small space. 
 

I’m not an X and O guy. So maybe I’m wrong. But I know what I see on a weekly basis. And that’s multiple receivers running in the same general vicinity and defenders crowding those zones. 
 

someone brought it up the other day here. When was the last time you saw receivers just wide open and no one around them. Haven’t really seen it since Daboll left. I don’t know what the difference is, but there’s a clear difference and that’s coming from a guy that played 2 months of organized football in his life. If I can see it, DCs can see it. and honestly, it’s not really arguable as our offense has pretty much looked like trash for the last 16 games or so. So right around when everyone figured out what Dorsey was all about. Since then we’ve been trash. 

Right. That's all intentional. The play is designed to attack the underneath coverage of the defense and put a ton of stress on them to try and fit that out. Generally speaking we mostly see 4-2 or 3-2 boxes which essentially means we're seeing two backers (often lined up in 30's) responsible for the hook to curl zones. This concept puts those defenders in conflict if they are running zone coverages. There's two ways the concept can be played - either the two backers pass off the crossers to the other backer and they widen with the route until they can pass it off to the curl/flat defender which then opens the passing lane for the snag route sitting over the center at 10 yards - or they match the routes and run with them in which case whoever is covering the underneath crosser will get picked by the receiver running the deeper crosser. If it is man coverage the backers either won't be there because they are both blitzing or one backer will be there playing a Rat concept (essentially a low hole robber) - if they Rat then the backer will end up sitting under the snag and the DBs in man responsibility will play the concept just as I described above with the backers matching the routes (the deeper DB will get picked). Typically the progressing to this concept looks at the RB on the wheel first if the QB reads man coverage pre-snap then works across the field to the crossers then snag. The backside Out is your man match-up if you like it.

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, BCAS Baritone said:

 

I think option routes can contribute to that, especially if all the receivers have an option route.  Basically, you want to run to the empty part of the field.  If everybody sees the same thing, that a certain part of the field is open, they all run to it.  And they have a nice group hug when they all show up together.

I apologize. I haven't done a great job of explaining how Deep Choice works on here. Only one of the receivers in the concept will have the option route. So for example lets say we're running "DC2" which is Deep Choice to the slot receiver. You're #1 receiver (widest receiver to that side of the field) is running what is called a "collector" route. Essentially it's his responsibility to occupy the corner outside - he does this by pushing vertically until he can get in that corners cushion and then will shut it down right in front of him to draw him into coverage (typically a comeback route). The #2 (slot receiver) is the one running the option route.

 - Lets say it's cover 1 and he sees a corner pressed outside of him on the #1 and a safety walked down on top of him - he will take an outside release and run a vertical pushing toward the sideline (Slot Fade) in order to work as far away from the MoF Safety as possible.

 - If it's a Cover 3 look he'll run a straight vertical off the LoS and try to split the corner and MoF Safety up the seam - if the corner carries and squeezes the slot vertical then the QB will check it down to the #1 receiver who ran the 10 yard comeback.

 - If it's a Cover 2 look the slot will push vertical and run a Post to the open middle of the field.

 - If it's a Quarters look you can either run a Corner to the sideline away from the Safety or a Dig right underneath (this is gameplan specific for the opponent).

 

Essentially it sets up your option guy to run to green grass and have the best possible opportunity to be open on the play. So while I understand your thought process - it doesn't actually play out that way.

 

EDIT: And just to be clear this is just one example of the many variations of choice concepts we run.

Edited November 17, 2023 by HoofHearted

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, boyst said:

In general there are few blue chip prospects to come out into the league and dominate. It is very hard to project them in the NFL now almost similar to TE's to develop. Then by that time they're almost too old and ready to be replaced due to various reasons.

 

I can't just decide if it's the college system is that different or the elite level athletes are that much more advanced to the NCAA qualifed NFL athlete.

I understand where you're coming from with your thought process. I think a lot of what you're seeing is more a reflection on how the game has changed over the last 10 years more so than anything. In terms of scheme, the linebacker position is essentially an entirely different position now than it was 10 years ago. The way the position is taught is completely different. The physical attributes you look for at the position is completely different. So if your mindset of blue chip prospect is just a dude who is a thumper - that doesn't really exist as much in the game anymore.

 

Run schemes are run schemes - there's wrinkles and small variations within them but in general what you see in high school will be the same way it looks in the NFL - just faster and more violent.

1 hour ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Topics of interest offensively:

- presnap formations, reads, philosophy and purposes behind them

- route concepts vs specific coverages we see

- run schemes

- 

 

Defensively

- coverages and how specific drops/alignments/techniques are tells

- pressure packages/blitz concepts…specifically how they relate to coverages

- pash rushing techniques from the interior 

- specific strengths of our personnel 

Anything specific you'd like to see from any of those? I'm more than willing to get into talking scheme.

[Allen2Moulds]

Thank you for setting up this post. From you're experience, how much can we realistically expect from Brady, as far as his impact with the Xs and Os.

[boyst]

39 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I understand where you're coming from with your thought process. I think a lot of what you're seeing is more a reflection on how the game has changed over the last 10 years more so than anything. In terms of scheme, the linebacker position is essentially an entirely different position now than it was 10 years ago. The way the position is taught is completely different. The physical attributes you look for at the position is completely different. So if your mindset of blue chip prospect is just a dude who is a thumper - that doesn't really exist as much in the game anymore.

 

Run schemes are run schemes - there's wrinkles and small variations within them but in general what you see in high school will be the same way it looks in the NFL - just faster and more violent.

Anything specific you'd like to see from any of those? I'm more than willing to get into talking scheme.

The piss poor tackling in high school is definitely getting more prevalent in the NFL. That's for damn sure. 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

39 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Anything specific you'd like to see from any of those? I'm more than willing to get into talking scheme.

- presnap formations, reads, philosophy and purposes behind them

when we line up in specific personnel or formations, what advantages those particular looks might be trying to gain, what Allen and company might be looking for when they come out in a certain look…for example, Bills come out with their 6 OL look. What advantages might they be looking at exploiting? What might the OC or QB be looking at that makes them want this look, or getting them into a certain play within that personnel grouping. These I imagine are very match up specificZ

 

- route concepts vs specific coverages we see

I have enjoyed reading your breakdowns of the deep choice and other concepts (split field, 2 man concepts, RPO) and what we are trying to read or take advantage of. More of that would be appreciated 

 

- run schemes

What defensive alignments might be enticing the bills to not run as much as I believe they should be vs the looks they’re getting. How are those previously mentioned formations affecting what were doing? One thing I noticed Dorsey do a lot is motion gabe into the IOL and have him block. What are they trying to accomplish here, muddy the waters? 

 

Defensively

- coverages and how specific drops/alignments/techniques are tells

I love trying to decipher coverages presnap. I know it’s very difficult from the broadcast angle. Often I’ll look to leverages DBs are using (ex. CB on #1 playing outside leverage think C2) tips and tells like that, or techniques post snap (like the man 7 info you shared) and how to better get an idea of what coverages teams are trying to play

 

- pressure packages/blitz concepts…specifically how they relate to coverages

I think this one is more so match up specific. What games (ex. TEX) might McD look to exploit vs a specific team/QB/OL? What do those particular rushes or blitzes attempt to do and why might they want to utilize them (overloads, simulated pressures, cover 0, etc)

 

- pash rushing techniques from the interior 

I love watching the big uglies on the snap. It often is my focus post snap. What are some of the better techniques you see from successful rushes within our our scheme? It seems like guys have the most success jumping gaps, swim moves, etc but also leads to issues with lane integrity. How can we know if these are predetermined slants or rushes, or are guys going a bit rouge? 

 

- specific strengths of our personnel 

What would you say is a strength of a particular player (ex Ed does best playing 3T with a 1 gap responsibility) 

How might these strengths effect what we want to do, or are conversely limited to do, on defense?

 

I don’t anticipate answers to these specifics. 
They’re just  some of the things that I watch or wonder that if like to know more about. I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and explain terminology, concepts, schemes, etc. 

[mrags]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

Right. That's all intentional. The play is designed to attack the underneath coverage of the defense and put a ton of stress on them to try and fit that out. Generally speaking we mostly see 4-2 or 3-2 boxes which essentially means we're seeing two backers (often lined up in 30's) responsible for the hook to curl zones. This concept puts those defenders in conflict if they are running zone coverages. There's two ways the concept can be played - either the two backers pass off the crossers to the other backer and they widen with the route until they can pass it off to the curl/flat defender which then opens the passing lane for the snag route sitting over the center at 10 yards - or they match the routes and run with them in which case whoever is covering the underneath crosser will get picked by the receiver running the deeper crosser. If it is man coverage the backers either won't be there because they are both blitzing or one backer will be there playing a Rat concept (essentially a low hole robber) - if they Rat then the backer will end up sitting under the snag and the DBs in man responsibility will play the concept just as I described above with the backers matching the routes (the deeper DB will get picked). Typically the progressing to this concept looks at the RB on the wheel first if the QB reads man coverage pre-snap then works across the field to the crossers then snag. The backside Out is your man match-up if you like it.

That all sounds fine. But it’s not working. The offense looks anemic. Either the concept sucks. Or they aren’t running it correctly. Like I said, it’s easy to cover a huge portion of the field when the majority of the receivers are all heading to the same spot 

[K-9]

Xs and Os are all well and good, but as the old saying goes, it isn’t about the Xs and Os, it’s about the Jimmys and Joes and we are currently lacking in that department.

 

IMO, the biggest missing X on offense is the lack of a consistent zone beating receiver to compliment Diggs, like we had with Beasley who was one of the best at pre and post snap reads. He mad Josh’s job a helluva lot easier. 
 

As for the Os on defense, when you’re missing your best player at each level of the defense like we are currently, it’s a tough road to hoe for even the best schemers. 

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

That all sounds fine. But it’s not working. The offense looks anemic. Either the concept sucks. Or they aren’t running it correctly. Like I said, it’s easy to cover a huge portion of the field when the majority of the receivers are all heading to the same spot 

I respect your response, but this thread isn't to meant to go back and forth about what is or isn't working. I've explained what is happening from a schematic standpoint in the scenarios you were referring to about "spacing issues". I hope you can respect that.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

One more bone to pick with the offense, wondering if someone had thoughts and if we might see it change:

 

Allen rarely carries out any play fake post gun handoffs. I feel like with Allen’s ability to run the ball and his willingness to throw the ball in RPOs, he should always be carrying though with some action. Seems like a missed opportunity to set up something later and/or potentially slow a defender even if for just a step. Strikes me as lazy from either Allen or a coaching flaw. 
 

PS why are we ever in pistol?? 

Edited November 17, 2023 by EmotionallyUnstable

[HoofHearted]

19 minutes ago, Allen2Moulds said:

Thank you for setting up this post. From you're experience, how much can we realistically expect from Brady, as far as his impact with the Xs and Os.

The system will remain the same as far as general concepts and terminology. I anticipate he'll put some of his own wrinkles into the gameplans. As far as if it will look the same - I can't really answer that until after the game Sunday. Play callers each have their own philosophies and nuances to how they go about things - for example, we're running the same defensive scheme we ran when Frazier was here - it looks different now that McDermott is calling it - but the framework is all the same. We'll know more after the Jets game.

[mrags]

24 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I respect your response, but this thread isn't to meant to go back and forth about what is or isn't working. I've explained what is happening from a schematic standpoint in the scenarios you were referring to about "spacing issues". I hope you can respect that.

I do. I appreciate the breakdown. Like I said. I’m not an X and O guy. Never played more than a few weeks of high school ball. My frustration comes from why isn’t it working. And to be honest, if it was that easy, Dorsey wouldn’t have been fired and the offense wouldn’t be struggling. 

[Allen2Moulds]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

The system will remain the same as far as general concepts and terminology. I anticipate he'll put some of his own wrinkles into the gameplans. As far as if it will look the same - I can't really answer that until after the game Sunday. Play callers each have their own philosophies and nuances to how they go about things - for example, we're running the same defensive scheme we ran when Frazier was here - it looks different now that McDermott is calling it - but the framework is all the same. We'll know more after the Jets game.

Thank you, that's encouraging to hear.