(OT) Review: Episode III Revenge of the Sith

[CosmicBills]

when did Palpatine hint about Anikins's birth - what did he say?  I dont remember that line in the movie.

I went to the movie with my father yesterday, since my father & I saw the original opening week together 28 yrs ago!

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At the Opera (or whatever that thing was). He told Annakin about Darth Plaugous who had the ability to both create life from midoclorians and to prevent death.

 

While Palpatine never came out and said he was the one who created Annakin, it was certainly implied that either Plaugous or Palpatine (who was possibly Plaugous's apprentice) did in fact do so.

[seannc]

Saw it yesterday and loved it. Here's one thing that I've been puzzled by over the years. In the original trilogy, why did Vader never refer to Yoda? Particularly in ESB he tells Luke "Obi Wan has taught you well". True enough, but at that point most of Luke's training was done by Yoda. You'd think Vader would acknowledge the awesome power of Yoda. I guess you could argue that Vader assumed he was wiped out like the rest of the Jedi, but wouldn't he sense his existance since the force is so strong in them?

[/dev/null]

Saw it yesterday and loved it.  Here's one thing that I've been puzzled by over the years.  In the original trilogy, why did Vader never refer to Yoda?  Particularly in ESB he tells Luke "Obi Wan has taught you well".  True enough, but at that point most of Luke's training was done by Yoda.  You'd think Vader would acknowledge the awesome power of Yoda.  I guess you could argue that Vader assumed he was wiped out like the rest of the Jedi, but wouldn't he sense his existance since the force is so strong in them?

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Vadar didn't know that Obiwan had sent Luke to Yoda. Vadar might not have even known if Yoda was still alive

[TheMadCap]

Since the word SPOILER is in the thread title, I am not holding anything back here.

 

Overall, I liked it. Of course, there were a few things that I imagined happening differently, but I'm sure that is true of everyone.

 

The opening scene where the camera follows the two ships was awesome! My good friend was raving about it for hours, he works for a CGI company and he said that scene must have been a nightmare to render.

 

The opera scene was one of my favorites. I like how Palpatine insinuates that he and Darth Plageis have something to do with Anakins birth, i.e., manipulating the midichlorians to produce life. He also makes the claim that one Sith, presumably Plageis learned to secret of how to cheat death. However, I tend to think that it was Sideous who learned that secret. It is possible that he was totally making it up to goad Anakin, but too much lying makes a dull character. Was anyone really surprised that Sideous killed his own master in his sleep like a coward?

 

There seems to be much debate regarding how/why Palpatine's appearance changed during the battle with Mace Windu. My personal thoughts are that Mace Windu had him beat. Completely. Had he not goaded Anakin to come and save him, it would have ended right there. I don't think he was faking being defeated, why risk your life on such stakes? I think that much of the reason that Palpatine was able to shield his true nature and powers from the Jedi had to do with keeping his guard up. In Ep. I, it was puzzling to me why the future Emperor could stand next to Yoda with his true identity safe from the most powerful Jedi. I think that when he finally unleashed the true power of the Dark Side (“No, Now you DIE!) that power corrupted his physical form as much as his spiritual form. Once he didn’t have to worry about hiding anymore, he could unleash the full fury of the Dark Side, and that is what made him change into the hag. Of course, if you take the story about cheating death seriously, that could also be part of it, namely that Palpatine is much older then he appears until he releases his full power.

 

When you consider the dream sequences with Padme dying, look at how it parallels the “birth” of the robotic Darth Vader. I could be wrong, but does she not die, as the black suit is being assembled? I think that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin killed his wife, and fulfilled the dream sequence.

 

The question of the spirits was sort of answered, however, it does not in any way explain how Anakin Skywalker was able to appear at the end of ROTJ. Perhaps because he was powerful enough to figure it out?

 

There were a few scenes that blew me away emotionally. The first was when Anakin executes Dooku. The second when he blasts Mace’s arm off. The last was when he ignited the saber in the council chambers to slaughter the younglings. Very powerful.

 

A few GREAT lines as well:

 

“You are under arrest MY LORD”

“I can feel your anger”

and of course “ I HATE YOU”

 

I suppose I can list a few things that irritated me as well, AJ will forgive me I’m sure. I didn’t like that screeching whooping iguana thing at ALL. Another thing I thought was kind of sad was how vulnerable the script made Padme out to be, after all the fighting she does in the first two. And forgive me, but I must admit I had a bit of a chuckle when Vader screams out NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

 

That’s all!

[TheMadCap]

Saw it yesterday and loved it.  Here's one thing that I've been puzzled by over the years.  In the original trilogy, why did Vader never refer to Yoda?  Particularly in ESB he tells Luke "Obi Wan has taught you well".  True enough, but at that point most of Luke's training was done by Yoda.  You'd think Vader would acknowledge the awesome power of Yoda.  I guess you could argue that Vader assumed he was wiped out like the rest of the Jedi, but wouldn't he sense his existance since the force is so strong in them?

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Much of the dialog has been changed in script revisions and the like. If you read the official book version authorized by Lucas, it does actually bring the point up. In the scene with the Emperor in ROTJ, the Emperor mentions that they knew all about Yoda, and that he was on Dagobah but he was helpless and impotent and could do nothing to stop them....

[CosmicBills]

My personal thoughts are that Mace Windu had him beat. Completely. Had he not goaded Anakin to come and save him, it would have ended right there. I don't think he was faking being defeated, why risk your life on such stakes?

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You are missing a couple key points that negate this line of thought.

 

1) The stakes are HUGE for Palpatine. Remember, there are always 2 Sith. With Dooku gone, he is relying on Annakin to fill that void. Without it, he is powerless. He cannot survive without Annakin turning to the darkside. What are the stakes? Palpatine says it as he kills Windu: "Unlimited power..." Can't get much higher stakes than that.

 

2) You assume that Palpatine was defensless. He clearly was not. Just because he was unarmed, does not mean he was powerless. His force lighting was strong enough to kill Vader in ROTJ, it would clearly be strong enough to kill Windu if he wanted to...and it does once Annakin makes his turn.

 

3) Palpatine took out 3 Jedi Masters at the same time in that scene without breaking a sweat. If you watch the fight again, there is a point early in the fight where Windu is defeated. Palpatine has his sabre inches from Windu's chest who is defensless...the camera lingers on this moment specifically to highlight it...but Palpatine doesn't take him out. Why? He needed Annakin there to complete his turn to the darkside. There is no other reason for him to have kept Windu alive at that point.

 

There was not a Jedi strong enough to defeat Palpatine...that is how powerful the Sith Lord had become. Yoda couldn't do it...Mace couldn't. Not even Luke. The only one would could do it was Vader.

[seannc]

Much of the dialog has been changed in script revisions and the like. If you read the official book version authorized by Lucas, it does actually bring the point up. In the scene with the Emperor in ROTJ, the Emperor mentions that they knew all about Yoda, and that he was on Dagobah but he was helpless and impotent and could do nothing to stop them....

342127[/snapback]

 

Ah-ha! Thanks for that info. I'm relieved to hear this issue didn't get left unnoticed.

[TheMadCap]

You are missing a couple key points that negate this line of thought.

 

1) The stakes are HUGE for Palpatine. Remember, there are always 2 Sith. With Dooku gone, he is relying on Annakin to fill that void. Without it, he is powerless. He cannot survive without Annakin turning to the darkside. What are the stakes? Palpatine says it as he kills Windu: "Unlimited power..." Can't get much higher stakes than that.

 

2) You assume that Palpatine was defensless. He clearly was not. Just because he was unarmed, does not mean he was powerless. His force lighting was strong enough to kill Vader in ROTJ, it would clearly be strong enough to kill Windu if he wanted to...and it does once Annakin makes his turn.

 

3) Palpatine took out 3 Jedi Masters at the same time in that scene without breaking a sweat. If you watch the fight again, there is a point early in the fight where Windu is defeated. Palpatine has his sabre inches from Windu's chest who is defensless...the camera lingers on this moment specifically to highlight it...but Palpatine doesn't take him out. Why? He needed Annakin there to complete his turn to the darkside. There is no other reason for him to have kept Windu alive at that point.

 

There was not a Jedi strong enough to defeat Palpatine...that is how powerful the Sith Lord had become. Yoda couldn't do it...Mace couldn't. Not even Luke. The only one would could do it was Vader.

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Perhaps. I just didn't get that feeling from watching it. Maybe I will change my mind about it after another viewing.

[ajzepp]

Maybe I will change my mind about it after another viewing.

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.....or three

[TheMadCap]

.....or three 

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or 300 by this time next year....

[MadBuffaloDisease]

This all has me thinking. I guess the underlying theme is that Plagious or Sidious created Anakin. But why? Or more precisely, why knock-up some random woman on some desert planet? Why not impregnate a woman (preferably a wife), do the midichlorian (I still think it's a dumb concept) thing to make him potentially the most powerful force-wielder ever, and teach him the dark side of the force, being that he's your son? Seems like a much safer way then the way it happened, especially since in either case you CHOSE to create life. If it was a matter of infiltrating the Jedi, you skip the teaching him the dark side stuff and send him to them as a boy, but since he's your son, you still have control over him. I don't know, I just think it makes more sense to have Anakin just happen to be born with a lot of Jedi potential, and that once he was discovered by the Jedi and thus Palpatine, had his life altered to direct him to the dark side.

 

As for sensing Yoda, you'd think that Vader would have been able to sense Luke's (and why DID they keep his last name as "Skywalker," if they were trying to hide him?) presence long before he met up with him, or could have sensed that Leia was his daughter, while he was tortuing her at the beginning of Ep. IV.

 

And I find it ironic that Palpatine laughed at Plagious for not being able to prevent his own death at the hands of his pupil, but the same thing happened to him. You'd think that if he had all this power, he would have seen that coming. And the lightning short-circuited Vader's life-support system, which is what was keeping him alive. It didn't kill him anymore than would have Vader bathing in a tub with a radio on the rim.

[TheMadCap]

This all has me thinking.  I guess the underlying theme is that Plagious or Sidious created Anakin.  But why?  Or more precisely, why knock-up some random woman on some desert planet?  Why not impregnate a woman (preferably a wife), do the midichlorian (I still think it's a dumb concept) thing to make him potentially the most powerful force-wielder ever, and teach him the dark side of the force, being that he's your son?  Seems like a much safer way then the way it happened, especially since in either case you CHOSE to create life.  If it was a matter of infiltrating the Jedi, you skip the teaching him the dark side stuff and send him to them as a boy, but since he's your son, you still have control over him.  I don't know, I just think it makes more sense to have Anakin just happen to be born with a lot of Jedi potential, and that once he was discovered by the Jedi and thus Palpatine, had his life altered to direct him to the dark side.

 

As for sensing Yoda, you'd think that Vader would have been able to sense Luke's (and why DID they keep his last name as "Skywalker," if they were trying to hide him?) presence long before he met up with him, or could have sensed that Leia was his daughter, while he was tortuing her at the beginning of Ep. IV.

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I think he was lying about that. I think it was a ruse to further cloud the young man's mind and judgement.

 

I also presume that Vader thinks when he killed Padme, the baby died with her. Remember, they buried her making it look like she was pregnant (I assume this is why she looked like she was still carrying). So it is likely that Vader knew nothing about Luke until he ran into him on at the Battle of Yavin, after which he became obsessed with finding him...

[TheMadCap]

This all has me thinking.  I guess the underlying theme is that Plagious or Sidious created Anakin.  But why?  Or more precisely, why knock-up some random woman on some desert planet?  Why not impregnate a woman (preferably a wife), do the midichlorian (I still think it's a dumb concept) thing to make him potentially the most powerful force-wielder ever, and teach him the dark side of the force, being that he's your son?  Seems like a much safer way then the way it happened, especially since in either case you CHOSE to create life.  If it was a matter of infiltrating the Jedi, you skip the teaching him the dark side stuff and send him to them as a boy, but since he's your son, you still have control over him.  I don't know, I just think it makes more sense to have Anakin just happen to be born with a lot of Jedi potential, and that once he was discovered by the Jedi and thus Palpatine, had his life altered to direct him to the dark side.

 

As for sensing Yoda, you'd think that Vader would have been able to sense Luke's (and why DID they keep his last name as "Skywalker," if they were trying to hide him?) presence long before he met up with him, or could have sensed that Leia was his daughter, while he was tortuing her at the beginning of Ep. IV.

 

And I find it ironic that Palpatine laughed at Plagious for not being able to prevent his own death at the hands of his pupil, but the same thing happened to him.  You'd think that if he had all this power, he would have seen that coming.  And the lightning short-circuited Vader's life-support system, which is what was keeping him alive.  It didn't kill him anymore than would have Vader bathing in a tub with a radio on the rim.

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The Emperor was not all knowing, as evident by that very fact and that he did not sense young Skywalker's prescence on the moon of Endor. And I believe that the lightning would have deleterious effect on one's heart and mind as well as electronics....

[ajzepp]

These BK commercials are cracking me up, man.....

 

"....I am your.....UN-cle"

[MadBuffaloDisease]

I think he was lying about that. I think it was a ruse to further cloud the young man's mind and judgement.

Lying about what? The Plagious thing? That's what I thought later-on when Palpatine told Anakin that together they'd find the way to cheat death, when Palpatine made it seem like he learned it from Plagious before he killed him. But from the news on interviews, it seems that Anakin WAS created by Plagious or Sidious. And if that's the case, again I don't see why they didn't just create a son who would have been born into evil and would have no choice but to be loyal to his father.

I also presume that Vader thinks when he killed Padme, the baby  died with her. Remember, they buried her making it look like she was pregnant (I assume this is why she looked like she was still carrying). So it is likely that Vader knew nothing about Luke until he ran into him on at the Battle of Yavin, after which he became obsessed with finding him...

I can understand why they didn't know about Yoda (and again that would have made more sense than knowing he was on Dagobah but letting him live because he was impotent-look where THAT got them!), because you can't sense the force in other people unless they're in your immediate vicinity. That's why I don't have a problem with Vader not knowing Luke was alive until he met-up with him. But again I wonder why they kept Luke's surname as "Skywalker" since if you wanted to protect him, you'd obviously change such an infamous surname. And again I'd think you'd know your own daughter, or at least be able to sense the force in her, since the force was strong in that family (or so we've been told).

[MadBuffaloDisease]

The Emperor was not all knowing, as evident by that very fact and that he did not sense young Skywalker's prescence on the moon of Endor. And I believe that the lightning would have deleterious effect on one's heart and mind as well as electronics....

More electronics. The Emperor was nailing Luke with the lightning several times, but merely Vader picking-him-up and being in contact with the lightning source (and why couldn't Vader use lightning?) was enough to kill him, so it leads me to believe that it short-circuited his electronics more than anything.

[TheMadCap]

Lying about what?  The Plagious thing?  That's what I thought later-on when Palpatine told Anakin that together they'd find the way to cheat death, when Palpatine made it seem like he learned it from Plagious before he killed him.  But from the news on interviews, it seems that Anakin WAS created by Plagious or Sidious.  And if that's the case, again I don't see why they didn't just create a son who would have been born into evil and would have no choice but to be loyal to his father.

 

I can understand why they didn't know about Yoda (and again that would have made more sense than knowing he was on Dagobah but letting him live because he was impotent-look where THAT got them!), because you can't sense the force in other people unless they're in your immediate vicinity.  That's why I don't have a problem with Vader not knowing Luke was alive until he met-up with him.  But again I wonder why they kept Luke's surname as "Skywalker" since if you wanted to protect him, you'd obviously change such an infamous surname.  And again I'd think you'd know your own daughter, or at least be able to sense the force in her, since the force was strong in that family (or so we've been told).

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Vader didn't know about Leia until he snatched it from Luke's mind during thier second confrontation. You also have to keep in mind that until Luke destroyed the Death Star, he hadn't studied the force, and had not developed his powers. More evidence that he would have remained relatively annonymous on a backwater world like Tatooine. Most of the people who would know the name Skywalker (the Jedi) were killed in the transition. And although it didn't specifically point this out, it was likely Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru who kept the name for him, and didn't give him the name Lars...

[TheMadCap]

More electronics.  The Emperor was nailing Luke with the lightning several times, but merely Vader picking-him-up and being in contact with the lightning source (and why couldn't Vader use lightning?) was enough to kill him, so it leads me to believe that it short-circuited his electronics more than anything.

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Vader couldn't use the lightning because he lost his physical hands.

 

Until right at the end the Emperor wasn't really trying fry Luke. If you really watch the scene, you will notice the bolts blasting Vader right in the chest from both sides. I think that when he realized Vader betraying him, he let it all loose and unleashed the death blasts. That is why the breather wasn't really messed up, none of his lights were burned out, his breathing itself was weak.

 

At this point I'm going to bed, see you all for more discussion tomorrow...

[JLO]

maybe when Vader turned back to Anakin, he realized that the love and meaning of his life was gone(Padme) so he gave up on life just as she did.

[Simon]

and why couldn't Vader use lightning?)

 

According to my son's SW III novel, Vader could never use force lightning because the force is a living entity and Vader could not convey it with his two mechanical hands.