Fraud or no fraud? that is the question...

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

28 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

No belligerence or rage here.  I think you’re the one who’s melting a bit.  I just speak the truth.  Those who don’t wear masks are selfish morons, and those who believe the election law hoax reside in the same category.  All of this traces to a cult of personality that elevates the aims and ego of one person over the needs of this country.  It’s tragic, and hopefully it’s an isolated period in our history. 

I think the Hatfields always think the McCoys are the problem, and the McCoys always point their finger the opposite way.  It seems silly to keep debating that.  
 

 

[Scraps]

54 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

Without seeming to advocate for an election re-do, shouldn’t the left point up suspicious happenings in FL and say, TX?  If all that is needed to throw out or flip a state’s electoral votes is suspicion, I am confident taking that same comb to those states would cast sufficient similar suspicion to flip those, is it 67, electoral votes to Biden. Thoughts?

 

There is no reason for Biden to sink to Trump's level.  306 Electoral votes is sufficient.  There are more important things for the incoming administration to focus on than contributing to the circus.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Scraps

[Bob in Mich]

44 minutes ago, Scraps said:

 

There is no reason for Biden to sink to Trump's level.  306 Electoral votes is sufficient.  There are more important things for the incoming administration to focus on than contributing to the circus.

That is certainly a valid point.  I guess I was hoping to point out to Trump supporters, that there are likely similar suspicious happenings in all states, not just the states that Trump is currently targeting.  And, also to highlight the foolishness in lobbying for flipping states based on suspicious video clips.

 

I agree that the Biden team has better things to do 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Well stated 

What percentage of the total number of infected citizens in the country would you write off to the hundreds of thousands of protestors in the streets this summer?  What percentage or deaths? 
 

Big picture—should political leaders have spoken out forcefully about mass gatherings, and/or banned public demonstrations to stop the spread? Should we have had greater outcry from the science community about super-spreader events?  

[Scraps]

3 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

That is certainly a valid point.  I guess I was hoping to point out to Trump supporters, that there are likely similar suspicious happenings in all states, not just the states that Trump is currently targeting.  And, also to highlight the foolishness in lobbying for flipping states based on suspicious video clips.

 

 

Very valid points.  Voter fraud isn't limited to one side or the other.  A Trump supporter in Pennsylvania for example tried to vote twice.    There also seemed to be a thought that a recount would go in Trumps favor, or at least narrow Trumps loss.  Recounts of vote tallies have a 50/50 chance of going against you.  A recount in Georgia may have narrowed Trump's loss as uncounted votes did show up in pro-Trump counties.  However recounts in Wisconsin and Michigan I believe actually caused Trump's loss to widen.

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

What percentage of the total number of infected citizens in the country would you write off to the hundreds of thousands of protestors in the streets this summer?  What percentage or deaths? 
 

Big picture—should political leaders have spoken out forcefully about mass gatherings, and/or banned public demonstrations to stop the spread? Should we have had greater outcry from the science community about super-spreader events?  

The difference between the protests and the Trump rallies were that, from the footage I saw, protestors were masked and Trump rallies weren’t.  Both were outside, at least many of the Trump rallies, which helps.  Of course, you had the Trump rally inside in Tulsa that appears to have triggered infection, and the meetings, etc. at the White House that caused infection.The protests were not as safe as desired, I heard commentators discuss that.  I don’t know if there is data on the infection rates in communities with protests and if they increased post-protest.  If you have data on that I’d be happy to review it.

 

And I would not write off anyone to any reason where stupidity caused a higher risk to Covid than needed.  I understand why people protested but from the perspective of Covid it was dumb and they should have found other ways to do so.

Edited December 9, 2020 by oldmanfan

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

12 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

That is certainly a valid point.  I guess I was hoping to point out to Trump supporters, that there are likely similar suspicious happenings in all states, not just the states that Trump is currently targeting.  And, also to highlight the foolishness in lobbying for flipping states based on suspicious video clips.

 

I agree that the Biden team has better things to do 

There would be no reason for the presumptive winner to upset the apple cart.  It has nothing to do with what’s right or wrong, or the greater good.  It’s simply bad business. 

[Bob in Mich]

27 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

What percentage of the total number of infected citizens in the country would you write off to the hundreds of thousands of protestors in the streets this summer?  What percentage or deaths? 
 

Big picture—should political leaders have spoken out forcefully about mass gatherings, and/or banned public demonstrations to stop the spread? Should we have had greater outcry from the science community about super-spreader events?  

 

Lenny, we have witnessed the outrage and cries of oppression over requests to just wear masks.  Telling people that they could not leave their homes in order to protest government actions would have not gone over well.  In my opinion, that is the chief reason government officials did not try to prohibit protests.  It wouldn’t have worked and the required attempted controlling measures would have made riots much more violent

Edited December 9, 2020 by Bob in Mich

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

The difference between the protests and the Trump rallies were that, from the footage I saw, protestors were masked and Trump rallies weren’t.  Both were outside, at least many of the Trump rallies, which helps.  Of course, you had the Trump rally inside in Tulsa that appears to have triggered infection, and the meetings, etc. at the White House that caused infection.The protests were not as safe as desired, I heard commentators discuss that.  I don’t know if there is data on the infection rates in communities with protests and if they increased post-protest.  If you have data on that I’d be happy to review it.

 

And I would not write off anyone to any reason where stupidity caused a higher risk to Covid than needed.  I understand why people protested but from the perspective of Covid it was dumb and they should have found other ways to do so.

See, this is why we can’t have nice things.  
 

You’re the science guy and it’s almost like pulling teeth to get you to acknowledge what you surely must know is fundamentally true.  If lack of mask discipline, and lack of respect for social distancing, and attending even small gatherings of highly emotional/animated individuals causes the spread, these gatherings by extension must have infected tens—likely hundreds—of thousands and resulted in an untold number of deaths. 
 

Of course, I’m only speaking as if the protestors magically appeared at the protest sites and all other things were equal.  We know that’s not the case—we know people take buses, trains, subways, cars and bikes to the site of the protest.  We know they hitchhike and dead head. We know they coordinate with friends and fellow protestors.  We know they eat at McDonalds, shop at 7-11, buy the soup at Panera. They sleep in motels hotels RVs and in campgrounds.  They use public restrooms, private bathrooms, find a tree or a bush and keep moving. They mess around.  A select few rage and riot.  They exchange copious amounts of bodily fluids and it ain’t even worth debating. 
 

I told you previously I wear a mask, observe social distancing and quite honestly rarely see the unicorns out there infecting all the rest of us (for at least the 100 days after the Biden inaugural event), but one of the fundamental reasons people of all stripes think the lockdown madness is absolute horsesh:t is because the storyline makes precious little sense.  

 

These message points should have been screamed from every platform imaginable. Instead, we get “gee, uh, no, um, masks, uh Trump”. 
 

 
 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

21 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

 

Lenny, we have witnessed the outrage and cries of oppression over requests to just wear masks.  Telling people that they could not leave their homes in order to protest government actions would have not gone over well.  In my opinion, that is the chief reason government officials did not try to prohibit protests.  It wouldn’t have worked and the required attempted controlling measures would have made riots much more violent

So, government (R/D/I) is complicit in the spread of the virus across the board, and responsible for what— 20% of the cases and deaths?  30%?  
 

I have the same questions regarding Cuomo and downstate NY btw.  It’s basically thunderdome down there.  No rhyme, no reason, anyone can come from anywhere close and infect everyone they come in contact with.  Yet, sweet old Lenny healthy as a horse and sweet a rhubarb pie is going to deplete the Covid ozone if he has turkey with 9.75 people from 3 different zip codes?  

 

 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

34 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

See, this is why we can’t have nice things.  
 

You’re the science guy and it’s almost like pulling teeth to get you to acknowledge what you surely must know is fundamentally true.  If lack of mask discipline, and lack of respect for social distancing, and attending even small gatherings of highly emotional/animated individuals causes the spread, these gatherings by extension must have infected tens—likely hundreds—of thousands and resulted in an untold number of deaths. 
 

Of course, I’m only speaking as if the protestors magically appeared at the protest sites and all other things were equal.  We know that’s not the case—we know people take buses, trains, subways, cars and bikes to the site of the protest.  We know they hitchhike and dead head. We know they coordinate with friends and fellow protestors.  We know they eat at McDonalds, shop at 7-11, buy the soup at Panera. They sleep in motels hotels RVs and in campgrounds.  They use public restrooms, private bathrooms, find a tree or a bush and keep moving. They mess around.  A select few rage and riot.  They exchange copious amounts of bodily fluids and it ain’t even worth debating. 
 

I told you previously I wear a mask, observe social distancing and quite honestly rarely see the unicorns out there infecting all the rest of us (for at least the 100 days after the Biden inaugural event), but one of the fundamental reasons people of all stripes think the lockdown madness is absolute horsesh:t is because the storyline makes precious little sense.  

 

These message points should have been screamed from every platform imaginable. Instead, we get “gee, uh, no, um, masks, uh Trump”. 
 

 
 

 

As a scientist I believe in data.  I haven't seen data that shows an uptick in Covid infection rates in cities where protests took place.  Doesn't mean the data isn't there, just that I haven't seen it.  So I would suggest if you want to make your point, find data to do so.  Simply saying it must have caused an uptick is not science.  Logically one would think so, but data proves it.  Show me data.  There is data on a pretty significant positive infection rate at the White House including you know who.

Oh, and you mentioned lockdown.  Outside of I think California in certain areas, at present I am not aware of any quarantines or absolute lock downs.  Again, if that is in error feel free to correct me.  At the initiation of the pandemic lockdowns were put in place, primarily to protect hospitals from being overrun.  If infection rates continue to increase, states and communities will have to look critically at ICU space, bed availability and such.  But right now the emphasis is on the mitigation strategies.

 

[Bob in Mich]

40 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

So, government (R/D/I) is complicit in the spread of the virus across the board, and responsible for what— 20% of the cases and deaths?  30%?  
 

I have the same questions regarding Cuomo and downstate NY btw.  It’s basically thunderdome down there.  No rhyme, no reason, anyone can come from anywhere close and infect everyone they come in contact with.  Yet, sweet old Lenny healthy as a horse and sweet a rhubarb pie is going to deplete the Covid ozone if he has turkey with 9.75 people from 3 different zip codes?  

 

 

I have no idea how much protests or rallies contributed to the spread.  

 

Try to imagine that you were calling the shots to try to limit the spread and that you were going to ultimately be held responsible for deaths on your watch.  Ok, you there?  If so, now ask yourself if it would be wiser to restrict contacts until the vaccine arrives or wiser to give in to complaints from those that want to open up everything and to take a gamble with your people.  

 

It seems to me that when one has no responsibilities, it is easy to say, let’s take the risk.  If you are not responsible and made the wrong decision, oh well.  If the lives of others actually rest on your shoulders, there is more pressure to take the safest course.  If it were me, I could more easily live with unhappy citizens and dead local restaurants than a bunch of dead citizens

Edited December 9, 2020 by Bob in Mich

[DrDawkinstein]

Good news towards getting rid of divisive misinformation, bad news for @JaCrispy's thread starting momentum...( )

 

https://www.cnet.com/news/youtube-will-remove-any-new-videos-alleging-trump-lost-election-because-of-fraud/

 

YouTube will remove any new videos alleging Trump lost election because of fraud

YouTube will remove any new videos alleging that President Donald Trump lost the US 2020 election to Joseph Biden because of fraud or errors, Google's massive video site said Wednesday on its YouTube blog. Essentially, YouTube now categorizes Biden's victory and Trump's loss as historical fact, and so it will crack down on new misleading videos alleging otherwise.

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

As a scientist I believe in data.  I haven't seen data that shows an uptick in Covid infection rates in cities where protests took place.  Doesn't mean the data isn't there, just that I haven't seen it.  So I would suggest if you want to make your point, find data to do so.  Simply saying it must have caused an uptick is not science.  Logically one would think so, but data proves it.  Show me data.  There is data on a pretty significant positive infection rate at the White House including you know who.

Oh, and you mentioned lockdown.  Outside of I think California in certain areas, at present I am not aware of any quarantines or absolute lock downs.  Again, if that is in error feel free to correct me.  At the initiation of the pandemic lockdowns were put in place, primarily to protect hospitals from being overrun.  If infection rates continue to increase, states and communities will have to look critically at ICU space, bed availability and such.  But right now the emphasis is on the mitigation strategies.

 

Okey doke.  We’ll go with people magically appeared out of nowhere, protested and were protected by pixie dust, and transported home like in Star Trek.  

 

Jiminy Christmas. 
 

 

[JaCrispy]

9 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Good news towards getting rid of divisive misinformation, bad news for @JaCrispy's thread starting momentum...( )

 

https://www.cnet.com/news/youtube-will-remove-any-new-videos-alleging-trump-lost-election-because-of-fraud/

 

YouTube will remove any new videos alleging Trump lost election because of fraud

YouTube will remove any new videos alleging that President Donald Trump lost the US 2020 election to Joseph Biden because of fraud or errors, Google's massive video site said Wednesday on its YouTube blog. Essentially, YouTube now categorizes Biden's victory and Trump's loss as historical fact, and so it will crack down on new misleading videos alleging otherwise.

 

Hey, my threads have great dialogue, Mister...😉

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

15 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

 

I have no idea how much protests or rallies contributed to the spread.  

 

Try to imagine that you were calling the shots to try to limit the spread and that you were going to ultimately be held responsible for deaths on your watch.  Ok, you there?  If so, now ask yourself if it would be wiser to restrict contacts until the vaccine arrives or wiser to give in to complaints from those that want to open up everything and to take a gamble with your people.  

 

It seems to me that when one has no responsibilities, it is easy to say, let’s take the risk.  If you are not responsible and made the wrong decision, oh well.  If the lives of others actually rest on your shoulders, there is more pressure to take the safest course.  If it were me, I could more easily live with unhappy citizens and dead local restaurants than a bunch of dead citizens

Excellent. 
 

In the imagination game, I’m not sure why I wouldn’t be responsible for stepping up and saying “Listen, I fully and completely support your right to assemble and protest systemic injustice, but chances are exceptionally high that you are going to be responsible for the spread of the virus, the infection of strangers, friends and family alike, and people will die as a result of your actions.  The science doesn’t just apply to strip clubs, churches and Memorial Day gatherings of 11 or more. However, if you must protest, please spontaneously appear so we have plausible deniability.”. 
 

**btw, snark aside, your point on political leaders is valid.  I have Cuomo a substantial pass on early COVID handling.   No one wants to be in that position and flying without a net.  It’s very difficult.  That said, the pass lasts only so long. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[Doc Brown]

 

[oldmanfan]

36 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Okey doke.  We’ll go with people magically appeared out of nowhere, protested and were protected by pixie dust, and transported home like in Star Trek.  

 

Jiminy Christmas. 
 

 

Show me data.  That's what science believes in.  If you are so sure of this (an I have already said that if protestors were out there unmasked it was dumb and should not have been done), then go look at infection rates before and after in the communities where there were protests.  Either prove your point or don't.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Show me data.  That's what science believes in.  If you are so sure of this (an I have already said that if protestors were out there unmasked it was dumb and should not have been done), then go look at infection rates before and after in the communities where there were protests.  Either prove your point or don't.

I have.  The issue was about leadership and why some people think our leaders are running a grift on us all.  
 

I can’t think of a reason that leadership would not be as passionate as you are (most days when not discussion protests) about social distancing, masking up, staying home to prevent the spread.  I honestly don’t understand why you suddenly develop scientific  🐊 arms on what is painfully obvious— a wide scale protest simply cannot occur without many people violating virtually every sensible guideline you support based on data you rely on.  Well, it could, if everyone arrives in hermetically sealed test tubes.  I’d place the odds of that at less than 5%.   
 

But, we can just go with “it’s probably dumb”. 
 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

16 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I have.  The issue was about leadership and why some people think our leaders are running a grift on us all.  
 

I can’t think of a reason that leadership would not be as passionate as you are (most days when not discussion protests) about social distancing, masking up, staying home to prevent the spread.  I honestly don’t understand why you suddenly develop scientific  🐊 arms on what is painfully obvious— a wide scale protest simply cannot occur without many people violating virtually every sensible guideline you support based on data you rely on.  Well, it could, if everyone arrives in hermetically sealed test tubes.  I’d place the odds of that at less than 5%.   
 

But, we can just go with “it’s probably dumb”. 
 

 

 

The protestors should have distanced more.  They were outside and the ones I watched the participants were masked.  So not perfect to be sure.  Better than inside with no masks.

 

Data means something.  Guesses don’t.