daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said: That is a sensible approach imo. Voluntary self quarantine, but if someone refuses after testing positive that must be dealt with. At that point intent could be established, so they are a social threat. A phased re-opening with some precautionary measures in place is probably required. Right. We have to be somewhat sensible about this. We're lucky enough to be later in the chain, so we have examples how to move forward.
dubs Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, shoshin said: We are already getting the right to assemble back, and that's just with the current example we are all living through. I've given other examples when you bring this up. ** when the government says we can assemble in other words, if the citizenry needs approval from the government to exercise their rights under the constitution, then are they really unalienable or conditional? Edited May 13, 2020 by dubs 1
shoshin Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 32 minutes ago, dubs said: ** when the government says we can assemble in other words, if the citizenry needs approval from the government to exercise their rights under the constitution, then are they really unalienable or conditional? When rights conflict with other rights, sometimes one loses. This topic has been beaten to death--not a shot at you--I just don't feel like listing all the examples again. Sufficed to say, not all the rights under the Constitution always peaceably coexist in normal times (can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater despite your right to free speech) and in war/pandemic times, there can be even more conflicts.
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, shoshin said: When rights conflict with other rights, sometimes one loses. This topic has been beaten to death--not a shot at you--I just don't feel like listing all the examples again. Sufficed to say, not all the rights under the Constitution always peaceably coexist in normal times (can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater despite your right to free speech) and in war/pandemic times, there can be even more conflicts. Our rights don't exist because the state says so. They exist independent of the state itself. Thus, they cannot take them based on fear or current events. They must be given to them willingly. And that is done by manipulating the public into being too afraid to think beyond the moment. It's the oldest trick in the book, and it's on full display in our present crisis. Gotta be more brave than that. 4 1
dubs Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 9 minutes ago, shoshin said: When rights conflict with other rights, sometimes one loses. This topic has been beaten to death--not a shot at you--I just don't feel like listing all the examples again. Sufficed to say, not all the rights under the Constitution always peaceably coexist in normal times (can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater despite your right to free speech) and in war/pandemic times, there can be even more conflicts. It's been beaten to death because people don't understand what unalienable means. Going about our lives does not infringe on anyone's rights. 4
Boatdrinks Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, dubs said: It's been beaten to death because people don't understand what unalienable means. Going about our lives does not infringe on anyone's rights. Yep. Tired tropes about yelling fire in a theater or regulating the privilege of driving are a distraction from the actual issue. Peacefully going about one’s business is no more a threat now than it ever was with infectious diseases, viruses in the past. It’s being used to stoke fear so the stripping away of freedoms comes ( mostly) without argument. The topic is well worn now, but no less applicable until and if it stops. Edited May 13, 2020 by Boatdrinks 1 3
Reality Check Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 33 minutes ago, shoshin said: When rights conflict with other rights, sometimes one loses. This topic has been beaten to death--not a shot at you--I just don't feel like listing all the examples again. Sufficed to say, not all the rights under the Constitution always peaceably coexist in normal times (can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater despite your right to free speech) and in war/pandemic times, there can be even more conflicts. That is actually not true. It is perfectly legal to yell fire in a crowded movie theatre if there is a fire. 2 1
dubs Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Yep. Tired tropes about yelling fire in a theater or regulating the privilege of driving are a distraction from the actual issue. Peacefully going about one’s business is no more a threat now than it ever was with infectious diseases, viruses in the past. It’s being used to stoke fear so the stripping away of freedoms comes ( mostly) without argument. The topic is well worn now, but no less applicable until and if it stops. Exactly. People are so frightened into paralysis that there is actually a group of citizens advocating for this state of lockdown until there is a vaccine. It's mind blowing. 4 1
Reality Check Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, dubs said: Exactly. People are so frightened into paralysis that there is actually a group of citizens advocating for this state of lockdown until there is a vaccine. It's mind blowing. People are unfortunately thinking the same way their own pets do.
B-Man Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, dubs said: Exactly. People are so frightened into paralysis that there is actually a group of citizens advocating for this state of lockdown until there is a vaccine. It's mind blowing. Quick reminder: (and, yes, I am more than aware that they spread differently.............the point is you can't stop your life waiting for a vaccine) KEY POINTS Researchers have been working on an HIV vaccine since the 1980s, but progress towards an effective vaccine has been much slower than anticipated. Finding at least a partially effective vaccine remains of critical importance for the HIV response. The biggest reduction in new infections would be achieved by a combination of PrEP, universal antiretroviral treatment for people already living with HIV, and a vaccine.1 An HIV vaccine is a more realistic prospect today than a decade ago and an optimistic forecast of HIV vaccine availability is that one might be available by 2030. 2 2
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 Here's the thing. The Constitution is certainly predicated on common sense. It cannot possibly be a document of absolutes, because NOTHING can be written to cover every single possible outcome. To believe that's possible would be to say that it could have only been written by God himself(who's made a few mistakes of his own). When it comes time for the greater good of the people to override it during and emergency, the Constitution shouldn't have to be amended. No one should have had to tell dumbasses not to yell fire causing people to trample others. If we know there's a hydrogen bomb somewhere on this block on 5th avenue, we shouldn't have to have any high school dropout Constitutional scholars at their front door saying, "where's your warrant". I get that you can't trust the government, and I certainly don't, but that's not time to be playing that card. We gotta get through this thing sensibly, and preferably as a united country. No one really knows what this enemy is, but rest assured it is real. The other enemy that existed before this was a divided nation, and it's a shame we remain one throughout this.
Boatdrinks Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 11 minutes ago, dubs said: Exactly. People are so frightened into paralysis that there is actually a group of citizens advocating for this state of lockdown until there is a vaccine. It's mind blowing. Yeah, some actually are. I saw perhaps the dumbest thing I’ve seen yet in this CoronaVirus thing; some people in Florida protesting the lifting of the lockdown ! What is that ? Stunning that anyone would protest their own freedom to go out or stay in. Pretty sure the government won’t issue you a summons if you decide to hunker down.
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 11 minutes ago, daz28 said: Here's the thing. The Constitution is certainly predicated on common sense. It cannot possibly be a document of absolutes, because NOTHING can be written to cover every single possible outcome. To believe that's possible would be to say that it could have only been written by God himself(who's made a few mistakes of his own). When it comes time for the greater good of the people to override it during and emergency, the Constitution shouldn't have to be amended. No one should have had to tell dumbasses not to yell fire causing people to trample others. If we know there's a hydrogen bomb somewhere on this block on 5th avenue, we shouldn't have to have any high school dropout Constitutional scholars at their front door saying, "where's your warrant". I get that you can't trust the government, and I certainly don't, but that's not time to be playing that card. We gotta get through this thing sensibly, and preferably as a united country. No one really knows what this enemy is, but rest assured it is real. The other enemy that existed before this was a divided nation, and it's a shame we remain one throughout this. The constitution is predicated on Natural Law. As in, people are born with innate rights which exist outside of the state itself. The bolded section is anathema to everything the constitution stands for, not to mention this country. On one hand you're agreeing that government can't be trusted, but on the other you're saying they can decide when the "public good" overrides your innate rights. That's not liberalism. That's not freedom. That's supporting tyranny by any other name. 2 3
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 18 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: The constitution is predicated on Natural Law. As in, people are born with innate rights which exist outside of the state itself. The bolded section is anathema to everything the constitution stands for, not to mention this country. On one hand you're agreeing that government can't be trusted, but on the other you're saying they can decide when the "public good" overrides your innate rights. That's not liberalism. That's not freedom. That's supporting tyranny by any other name. No, I said we shouldn't have to be told when it's ok to break from it, and we should be holding them accountable not to take advantage of that fact
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 Just now, daz28 said: No, I said we shouldn't have to be told when it's ok to break from it, and we should be holding them accountable not to take advantage of that fact Who decides what's in the interest of the "greater good" in your mind? And why should they, government or otherwise, be able to decide to take away rights which were given to me by nature/God?
plenzmd1 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, ~Kostabi~ said: Man, what a crock of poop this is. Name me one economy that weathers a “ full stop”. Never happened before in this country without a depression attached. modest challenges... are you awake and alive? And you think this guy “ nailed it”! And where are the examples of not being able to provide healthcare by healthcare organizations? Based on nothing but fear, our healthcare organizations have been forbidden from delivering health care, but it’s not for lack of ability. I am in sales, do you need a new car or bridge today? 1 4
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 Just now, Deranged Rhino said: Who decides what's in the interest of the "greater good" in your mind? And why should they, government or otherwise, be able to decide to take away rights which were given to me by nature/God? You sure like to twist things. I said people shouldn't have to be told what's the greater good, I gave you examples. You'd think people might be smart enough to see it when it's right in front of them, but we've become the nation of me/greed. I also said, like you said, that it's our job to not allow them to. Nature/God is subjective. I know you probably don't think it is, but all people have different perspective on what their God is and what their nature is.
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, daz28 said: You sure like to twist things. I'm not twisting, I'm clarifying because your statement was vague. You know who twists things? The government you're admitting to be untrustworthy while also wishing to empower them with the ability to strip away your rights whenever they deem it's in the interests of the public good. 2 minutes ago, daz28 said: I said people shouldn't have to be told what's the greater good, I gave you examples. The "greater good" has no bearing on rights that I was born with. That's the point you're missing. 3 minutes ago, daz28 said: Nature/God is subjective. I know you probably don't think it is, but all people have different perspective on what their God is and what their nature is. You need to do much more learning on who the founders where, what they believed, and why they chose the words they did. The beauty of the document is that it sanctifies these rights regardless of your take on nature/god/or the divine. You are born with rights that did not come from government, but are your birthright. 3 1
Chef Jim Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 18 minutes ago, ~Kostabi~ said: There is so much wrong with this I don’t know where to start so I won’t. I’ll just ??♂️ 11 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: Man, what a crock of poop this is. Name me one economy that weathers a “ full stop”. Never happened before in this country without a depression attached. modest challenges... are you awake and alive? And you think this guy “ nailed it”! And where are the examples of not being able to provide healthcare by healthcare organizations? Based on nothing but fear, our healthcare organizations have been forbidden from delivering health care, but it’s not for lack of ability. I am in sales, do you need a new car or bridge today? I’ll take a bridge. One that will take me from Here to Away From Here please. 2 3
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