Wrong Josh > Right Josh/Taylor

[CuddyDark]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

He's had 6 starts in his career.  

He made many plays within the pocket yesterday and most importantly, he attempts throws that we weren't willing to make in the past few seasons.  That's the biggest difference.

He attempted what was called. TT ran two different WCOs in his time here. First year was what we're in now which is the modified Mike Holmgren offense which calles for deeper passes and power running. In the last two years we ran the Walsh pure WCO which is shorter passes and power running. TT is not a great QB and had a limited future but the OC choice was puzzling last year.

 

Allen is a Cam clone. Could he learn to throw from the pocket and be a pocket passer? Sure. Farve and Steve Young did learned to throw from the pocket. I'm not saying he can't or won't. Just saying for now they should just run the same plays they ran with TT. Which is what I said after they drafted him.

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, CuddyDark said:

He attempted what was called. TT ran two different WCOs in his time here. First year was what we're in now which is the modified Mike Holmgren offense which calles for deeper passes and power running. In the last two years we ran the Walsh pure WCO which is shorter passes and power running. TT is not a great QB and had a limited future but the OC choice was puzzling last year.

 

Allen is a Cam clone. Could he learn to throw from the pocket and be a pocket passer? Sure. Farve and Steve Young did learned to throw from the pocket. I'm not saying he can't or won't. Just saying for now they should just run the same plays they ran with TT. Which is what I said after they drafted him.

 

A QB can decide where to throw the ball post snap.  He doesn't just always go to the first option.

We had a vertical element to our passing game which is why we brought in Deonte Thompson for 11 games last year.  He's only a speed guy and you brought him in off the street last  year at week 5....why would you do that?

I also don't think we ran a pure WCO in 2016 under Lynn.

 

Daboll isn't from the Holmgren tree or I don't believe has every coached with or under Holmgren....correct me if I'm wrong.

Daboll is from the Erhardt - Perkin system that New England is famous for.  

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/15/breaking-down-what-bills-can-expect-from-new-oc-brian-daboll/

 

[CuddyDark]

16 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

A QB can decide where to throw the ball post snap.  He doesn't just always go to the first option.

We had a vertical element to our passing game which is why we brought in Deonte Thompson for 11 games last year.  He's only a speed guy and you brought him in off the street last  year at week 5....why would you do that?

I also don't think we ran a pure WCO in 2016 under Lynn.

 

Daboll isn't from the Holmgren tree or I don't believe has every coached with or under Holmgren....correct me if I'm wrong.

Daboll is from the Erhardt - Perkin system that New England is famous for.  

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/15/breaking-down-what-bills-can-expect-from-new-oc-brian-daboll/

 

Erhardt-Perkins is a modified WCO with deep ball concepts taken from the Coryell philosophy. If you research the Erhardt-Perkins system you'll find that the two systems came together with one coach from each system working together, I believe with the Parcell's Giants. And yes they made a bad hire last year and tried to make their running, deep ball QB, a pure WCO QB and if failed at which point they changed and allowed for deep balls and QB running, but the OC was not schooled in either.

[Bring it]

11 hours ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

Pump the brakes, my friend. Every rookie QB deserves way more than half a season. I am encouraged by Allen (today was a blast), but I can't anoint him or any of these guys (even Baker!) as franchise QBs until I see more. That's just how I see it. I refuse to declare anyone a bust or "the guy" right away. 

Yeah there is a long way to go for these guys!

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Erhardt-Perkins is a modified WCO with deep ball concepts taken from the Coryell philosophy. If you research the Erhardt-Perkins system you'll find that the two systems came together with one coach from each system working together, I believe with the Parcell's Giants. And yes they made a bad hire last year and tried to make their running, deep ball QB, a pure WCO QB and if failed at which point they changed and allowed for deep balls and QB running, but the OC was not schooled in either.

 

I know the system, I spent a lot of time researching it after we hired Daboll.  How is this Mike Holmgren's system again?

Still trying to figure out how we ran a pure WCO with Lynn in 2016.  How you think Lynn ran the same system as Dennison is a little head scratching.  

[CuddyDark]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I know the system, I spent a lot of time researching it after we hired Daboll.  How is this Mike Holmgren's system again?

Still trying to figure out how we ran a pure WCO with Lynn in 2016.  How you think Lynn ran the same system as Dennison is a little head scratching.  

I was thinking more of Greg Roman. Didn't even factor Lynn. Holmgren runs the same offense we're running now. Same as Phily and Indy and NE and KC and Chi... It's a modified WCO.

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 Jacksonville is 3-8 this year. They are not the dominant team they were last year.

Their defense was 6th (7th passing) in DVOA. They are very physical and they played very well yesterday. Such a deliberately misleading comment.

[Bring it]

29 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Their defense was 6th (7th passing) in DVOA. They are very physical and they played very well yesterday. Such a deliberately misleading comment.

I think Jacksonville’s real problem has been in not having a healthy Fournette. Without him their offense is weak and not even one dimensional if that’s possible!

The defense is stil very good!

[Royale with Cheese]

44 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

I was thinking more of Greg Roman. Didn't even factor Lynn. Holmgren runs the same offense we're running now. Same as Phily and Indy and NE and KC and Chi... It's a modified WCO.

 

I don't think this is true at all.  I don't think NE and KC run the same offense at all.  Reid's offense is not the same as McDaniels or close to it.

You're lumping in Indy, KC, Philly and Chicago because of the coaches and where they came from.  That actually makes sense.

 

The Pats and the Bills aren't running a WCO now.  

[CuddyDark]

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I don't think this is true at all.  I don't think NE and KC run the same offense at all.  Reid's offense is not the same as McDaniels or close to it.

You're lumping in Indy, KC, Philly and Chicago because of the coaches and where they came from.  That actually makes sense.

 

The Pats and the Bills aren't running a WCO now.  

Erhardt-Perkins is a modified WCO.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Erhardt-Perkins is a modified WCO.

 

Well here's a breakdown of offenses.  3 main offensive systems but you think they're are 2.  Your exact words were that we run the same offense as KC.  So do the Pats.  Doesn't seem to be the case huh?

 

There are essentially three main offensive “systems” in the NFL: West Coast, Coryell, and Erhardt-Perkins. Given that every NFL team runs basically the same plays, each of these NFL offensive families is differentiated mostly by how those plays are communicated.

 

To oversimplify, the West Coast offense, made famous by Bill Walsh and still the most popular system in the NFL, uses what is essentially a memory system. On running plays, the same two-digit numbering system as most NFL and college teams is used. Passing plays, however, are typically denoted by the primary receiver’s route, such as Z-In, X-Hook, while the rest of the players are required to memorize their tasks. This system is as old as football itself, which is no surprise given that Walsh’s onetime mentor Paul Brown is credited as much as anyone with inventing the modern conception of huddles, game plans, and play calls. For more than 20 years, this system has been the dominant one in the NFL.

 

 

New England’s offense is a member of the NFL’s third offensive family, the Erhardt-Perkins system. The offense was named after the two men, Ron Erhardt and Ray Perkins, who developed it while working for the Patriots under head coach Chuck Fairbanks in the 1970s. According to Perkins, it was assembled in the same way most such systems are developed. “I don’t look at it as us inventing it,” he explained. “I look at it as a bunch of coaches sitting in rooms late at night organizing and getting things together to help players be successful.”

The backbone of the Erhardt-Perkins system is that plays — pass plays in particular — are not organized by a route tree or by calling a single receiver’s route, but by what coaches refer to as “concepts.” Each play has a name, and that name conjures up an image for both the quarterback and the other players on offense. And, most importantly, the concept can be called from almost any formation or set. Who does what changes, but the theory and tactics driving the play do not. “In essence, you’re running the same play,” said Perkins. “You’re just giving them some window-dressing to make it look different.”

The biggest advantage of the concept-based system is that it operates from the perspective of the most critical player on offense: the quarterback. In other systems, even if the underlying principles are the exact same, the play and its name might be very different. Rather than juggling all this information in real time, an Erhardt-Perkins quarterback only has to read a given arrangement of receivers. “You can cut down on the plays and get different looks from your formations and who’s in them. It’s easier for the players to learn. It’s easier for the quarterback to learn,” former Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis said back in 2000. “You get different looks without changing his reads. You don’t need an open-ended number of plays.”

 

http://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/

 

[CuddyDark]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Well here's a breakdown of offenses.  3 main offensive systems but you think they're are 2.  Your exact words were that we run the same offense as KC.  So do the Pats.  Doesn't seem to be the case huh?

 

There are essentially three main offensive “systems” in the NFL: West Coast, Coryell, and Erhardt-Perkins. Given that every NFL team runs basically the same plays, each of these NFL offensive families is differentiated mostly by how those plays are communicated.

 

To oversimplify, the West Coast offense, made famous by Bill Walsh and still the most popular system in the NFL, uses what is essentially a memory system. On running plays, the same two-digit numbering system as most NFL and college teams is used. Passing plays, however, are typically denoted by the primary receiver’s route, such as Z-In, X-Hook, while the rest of the players are required to memorize their tasks. This system is as old as football itself, which is no surprise given that Walsh’s onetime mentor Paul Brown is credited as much as anyone with inventing the modern conception of huddles, game plans, and play calls. For more than 20 years, this system has been the dominant one in the NFL.

 

 

New England’s offense is a member of the NFL’s third offensive family, the Erhardt-Perkins system. The offense was named after the two men, Ron Erhardt and Ray Perkins, who developed it while working for the Patriots under head coach Chuck Fairbanks in the 1970s. According to Perkins, it was assembled in the same way most such systems are developed. “I don’t look at it as us inventing it,” he explained. “I look at it as a bunch of coaches sitting in rooms late at night organizing and getting things together to help players be successful.”

The backbone of the Erhardt-Perkins system is that plays — pass plays in particular — are not organized by a route tree or by calling a single receiver’s route, but by what coaches refer to as “concepts.” Each play has a name, and that name conjures up an image for both the quarterback and the other players on offense. And, most importantly, the concept can be called from almost any formation or set. Who does what changes, but the theory and tactics driving the play do not. “In essence, you’re running the same play,” said Perkins. “You’re just giving them some window-dressing to make it look different.”

The biggest advantage of the concept-based system is that it operates from the perspective of the most critical player on offense: the quarterback. In other systems, even if the underlying principles are the exact same, the play and its name might be very different. Rather than juggling all this information in real time, an Erhardt-Perkins quarterback only has to read a given arrangement of receivers. “You can cut down on the plays and get different looks from your formations and who’s in them. It’s easier for the players to learn. It’s easier for the quarterback to learn,” former Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis said back in 2000. “You get different looks without changing his reads. You don’t need an open-ended number of plays.”

 

http://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/

 

There are only two, Coryell and Walsh. Erhardt-Perkins is not a system it's a play calling language. Erhardt & Perkins took the other two and combined them into one system with new/simplified language.

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

There are only two, Coryell and Walsh. Erhardt-Perkins is not a system it's a play calling language. Erhardt & Perkins took the other two and combined them into one system with new/simplified language.

 

The Erhardt-Perkins system is a system which is why "system" comes after the two creators.  You even called it a system in the last sentence but now you're trying anything you can to discredit it because you believe we run the same exact offensive system as KC....LOL.

 

I gave you a link of the basics of the system and you say it's just playcalling language?  Did you even read it?

 

Here's a link specifically from KC that talks about the 3 systems which you don't believe exist.  And here's how Reid's WCO offense differentiates from the 2 others.

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2013/1/16/3879192/andy-reid-west-coast-offense-chiefs-2013

But I thought we run the same exact system?

 

 

[Albany,n.y.]

14 hours ago, Dadonkadonk said:

53:20 TD:INT ratio will be tough to beat.

 

In 8 games Rosen has 9 TD and 10 INT already. 

Darnold already has 14 INT in 9 games.

They both have a long way to go to Yesterdaybe better than TT.  Mayfield and Allen so far have protected the football reasonably well.  

And all of them have worse YPA than TT's career average.  

But who knows it is early...

 

 

I think a better stat than TD throws/Interceptions is TDs produced than TDs thrown.  If a QB runs it in or hands off to a RB who runs it in, what difference does it make how the team reached the end zone?  Yesterday Allen was responsible for 3 TDs, a TD pass, a handoff to a WR (acting as a RB) and his own run.  That's a 3/0 TD/Int ration in my book. 

The traditional seasonal TD/Int ratio Allen has of 3/5 doesn't tell the whole story-just as his completion % yesterday was irrelevant. 

[CuddyDark]

 

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The Erhardt-Perkins system is a system which is why "system" comes after the two creators.  You even called it a system in the last sentence but now you're trying anything you can to discredit it because you believe we run the same exact offensive system as KC....LOL.

 

I gave you a link of the basics of the system and you say it's just playcalling language?  Did you even read it?

 

Here's a link specifically from KC that talks about the 3 systems which you don't believe exist.  And here's how Reid's WCO offense differentiates from the 2 others.

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2013/1/16/3879192/andy-reid-west-coast-offense-chiefs-2013

But I thought we run the same exact system?

 

 

Their "system" is a language and the combination of existing offenses. Also this assumes Reid runs a pure WCO. He doesn't. He never has. In fact this year he's actually running mostly a college spread offense.

[Royale with Cheese]

9 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

 

Their "system" is a language and the combination of existing offenses. Also this assumes Reid runs a pure WCO. He doesn't. He never has. In fact this year he's actually running mostly a college spread offense.

 

LOL...now system is in quotes.  We both know you won't credit it as a system because you came out and said we run the same one as KC LOL.  Even though multiple places have talked about 3 offensive systems in the NFL...you'll only say two LOL.

 

And you're about 8 years too late with your bolder parts.

 

Reid's offensive system has changed over the years, but its roots remain in the West Coast system that longtime 49ers coach Bill Walsh taught Mike Holmgren, who in turn taught the Packers' old offensive line coach. It is predicated on short, horizontal passes to stretch the defense, and then attacks with the running game or downfield throws for bigger gains.

Reid used it successfully during his early years in Philadelphia, too. But in the late 2000s, he began to incorporate elements of the college spread offense, and unveiled a new-look system with Michael Vick at quarterback that began to give defensive coordinators fits.

[D521646]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

LOL...now system is in quotes.  We both know you won't credit it as a system because you came out and said we run the same one as KC LOL.  Even though multiple places have talked about 3 offensive systems in the NFL...you'll only say two LOL.

 

And you're about 8 years too late with your bolder parts.

 

Reid's offensive system has changed over the years, but its roots remain in the West Coast system that longtime 49ers coach Bill Walsh taught Mike Holmgren, who in turn taught the Packers' old offensive line coach. It is predicated on short, horizontal passes to stretch the defense, and then attacks with the running game or downfield throws for bigger gains.

Reid used it successfully during his early years in Philadelphia, too. But in the late 2000s, he began to incorporate elements of the college spread offense, and unveiled a new-look system with Michael Vick at quarterback that began to give defensive coordinators fits.

 Curious what you and Cuddy would call the K-Gun in respect to either of the 3 systems?  And yes, there are 3 systems currently employed in the NFL, that is not to say that some elements of college football, most notably the spread and RPO are not sprinkled in here and there, but generally speaking, each system utilizes distinct "language" in teaching it.  Also, I'd add that in reality there are really only two types on running offenses used in the NFL right now, and I think it's important that running offenses and passing offenses, although intertwined, are completely different, both conceptually, and pragmatically within the context of your little dispute.

 

 

Tim-

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, D521646 said:

 Curious what you and Cuddy would call the K-Gun in respect to either of the 3 systems?  And yes, there are 3 systems currently employed in the NFL, that is not to say that some elements of college football, most notably the spread and RPO are not sprinkled in here and there, but generally speaking, each system utilizes distinct "language" in teaching it.  Also, I'd add that in reality there are really only two types on running offenses used in the NFL right now, and I think it's important that running offenses and passing offenses, although intertwined, are completely different, both conceptually, and pragmatically within the context of your little dispute.

 

 

Tim-

 

I agree with this.  Everyone has installed or implemented some college concepts in their playbook.  

I was just going on and on with Cuddy because he said us, New England and KC are running the same Mike Holmgren offense.

 

I'm not sure what you would call the K-Gun.  I know Kelly mentioned in interviews they sometimes would only have 7 plays in their playbook for each game.  

[D521646]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I agree with this.  Everyone has installed or implemented some college concepts in their playbook.  

I was just going on and on with Cuddy because he said us, New England and KC are running the same Mike Holmgren offense.

 

I'm not sure what you would call the K-Gun.  I know Kelly mentioned in interviews they sometimes would only have 7 plays in their playbook for each game.  

 

The K-Gun was unique in that, up until that point, the "shotgun" was a gimmicky play, similar to the RPO today, or the Wildcat in some respects.  Kelly, Levy and the Bills made it a "thing", with competent consistency, and as such was copied ad infinitum by the league, so much so that the Bills offense of the late 80's and early 90's is pretty much a must have in todays NFL.  Back then it wasn't, and the shotgun, as it were wasn't even used in most teams offensive game plans, not to mention the actual K-Gun which was QB in SG, two backs in the backfield.

 

Just a little note to add to your spat..

 

 

Tim-

[GunnerBill]

Few teams in the NFL are pure "scheme" offenses any more. People who obsess about scheme are 15 years out of date. 

 

What do the Rams run? What do the Cheifs run? A bit of traditional WCO, a bit of spread, a bit of an amalgamation of the two. 

 

Saying "this is my scheme and this is what I run" is completely old hat.