shrader Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 I'm actually kind of glad they've quit. At least they've made my choice to bail for a while an easy one. They have to string together at least 3 wins in a row before I'm going to waste any time on them. The sad part though is that as the trade deadline approaches, they really don't have anyone to sell. Maybe you can pull a 3rd round pick from a defensive starved team for Scandella. Beyond that, there's just Skinner if they don't think he'll re-sign. They badly need a shake up post-all star break. And I don't even mean a trade, but they at least need to give a shot to an Amerk or two just to mix things up. The problem is, they don't really have the roster flexibility to do it thanks to carrying dead weight like Hunwick. They're not going to move him out since he's got a trade condition tied to him. After that, there's Elie. There is no one else they're going to move off the big club to make room for a call up. I know people will suggest a few names, but it isn't going to happen. They're not waiving anyone. People will love this one, but the only other guy they'll send down in order to recall a forward is Pilut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 11 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: Hey @JohnC, you be okay with Q coming in after this 0-5 stretch coming up to try and save this season? Cause sure looks dead to me. Housley outmatched if puck luck does not go his way. Inspiring PP with no shots! BTW, I referenced Guhle earlier,, why is 24 not playing tonight? No, I am not interested in a coaching change to salvage a fading season. If you want magic then go to a Vegas show and watch Teller and Penn or David Blaine. The problem is a combination of a lack of talent and the requirement to develop talent. Don't panic and fall into a state of despair. The process can be at times excruciating but if you have the fortitude to stick with it you will be rewarded. Trust the process. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=magic+shows+david+blaine&view=detail&mid=79C5C6AC493024144BFD79C5C6AC493024144BFD&FORM=VIRE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, JohnC said: No, I am not interested in a coaching change to salvage a fading season. If you want magic then go to a Vegas show and watch Teller and Penn or David Blaine. The problem is a combination of a lack of talent and the requirement to develop talent. Don't panic and fall into a state of despair. The process can be at times excruciating but if you have the fortitude to stick with it you will be rewarded. Trust the process. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=magic+shows+david+blaine&view=detail&mid=79C5C6AC493024144BFD79C5C6AC493024144BFD&FORM=VIRE This crew got hired cause we and management thought a Byslma led team that earned 47% of available points severely underperformed. They turned that team into a dead last team last year... earning 37% of available points. Now this year, if you give them a .500 record in that streak instead of 1.000, that you admit only happened cause the puck bounced the right way, guess what.....they are earning 37% of available points. And I am supposed to believe this coach and GM are better than the last one ???? I actually believe in the GM..but I am out on this coach. Just cause he made them demonstrably worse last year than they were when he inherited them, that is not his new floor. Guess by that standard Hue Jackson should be in the hall of fame for the work he did with the Browns...r..i mean after all they won 3 games this for him and 0 last year. Give him a ten-year extension. This team has not only not improved in the standings from the Bylsma years, , they have regressed. ..I will say they looked improved Rochester, but I really have no clue there as I don't watch them with my own eyes. But are we gonna wait another year for Housely to prove he can't coach? This aint football..changing coaches midstream can and does make a difference all the time 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 My concern is that we're not seeing team growth as a whole. What we thought was growth has turned out to be just a couple guys standing on their toes for a few weeks. It goes right back to why I wanted to see them add an additional center to this roster. The stench of losing is still all over this team and I'm starting to wonder if certain people can ever wash it off and if the newbies will settle into it as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, shrader said: My concern is that we're not seeing team growth as a whole. What we thought was growth has turned out to be just a couple guys standing on their toes for a few weeks. It goes right back to why I wanted to see them add an additional center to this roster. The stench of losing is still all over this team and I'm starting to wonder if certain people can ever wash it off and if the newbies will settle into it as well. They had the center you are now seeking. He was ROR. He was traded because he made it clear that he didn't want to be here. He now is having a stellar year and will help them to get into the playoffs and in the playoffs. I not criticizing the deal because in the long run it will help in the reshaping of this roster and lockerroom. We got Tage and probably less than a middle first round pick in return. The most important part of that deal was that it brought some salary relief that will be directed toward the long term signing of Skinner. Will Tage turn out to be a second line player? I think in the not too distant future he will turn into a good player. The bottom line is from a talent standpoint in the short term it was a setback but in the bigger picture it will turn out to be a good deal for both teams. I'll tell you the same thing that I say to Plexmd: A plan has been established and it is being followed. There is no other way to succeed other than to be brave enough to follow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, JohnC said: I'll tell you the same thing that I say to Plexmd: A plan has been established and it is being followed. There is no other way to succeed other than to be brave enough to follow it. Plans need to adapt over time though based on results. They appeared to be ahead of schedule for a while, but apparently that was a mirage. They could get back to that with a little kick start to secondary scoring and once Eichel returns to form post-injury. You don't plan for any of that, but you need to react on the fly. Was Berglund bailing early part of the plan? Of course not, but you need to react to it. I think it's safe to assume based on that contract that the plan involved him being around for a bit. But hey, if they did plan on that, well then that's some incredible foresight. And as a side note, only in Buffalo could both Berglund and Vontae Davis happen in the same year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, shrader said: I'm actually kind of glad they've quit. At least they've made my choice to bail for a while an easy one. They have to string together at least 3 wins in a row before I'm going to waste any time on them. The sad part though is that as the trade deadline approaches, they really don't have anyone to sell. Maybe you can pull a 3rd round pick from a defensive starved team for Scandella. Beyond that, there's just Skinner if they don't think he'll re-sign. They badly need a shake up post-all star break. And I don't even mean a trade, but they at least need to give a shot to an Amerk or two just to mix things up. The problem is, they don't really have the roster flexibility to do it thanks to carrying dead weight like Hunwick. They're not going to move him out since he's got a trade condition tied to him. After that, there's Elie. There is no one else they're going to move off the big club to make room for a call up. I know people will suggest a few names, but it isn't going to happen. They're not waiving anyone. People will love this one, but the only other guy they'll send down in order to recall a forward is Pilut. Unfortunately, you are 100% correct; the Sabres are boxed in by their inflexibility when it comes to roster movement. Which is why they should go radical to create the room necessary. Assign Scandella to Roch, let him get plucked off waivers for nothing in return. Same with Beaulieu. Same with any of the dead weight that has shown no ability to turn it around and aren’t part of the long term plan anyway. Time for the full youth movement to commence. Housley is just an interim coach, anyway. Edited January 15, 2019 by K-9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, shrader said: Plans need to adapt over time though based on results. They appeared to be ahead of schedule for a while, but apparently that was a mirage. They could get back to that with a little kick start to secondary scoring and once Eichel returns to form post-injury. You don't plan for any of that, but you need to react on the fly. Was Berglund bailing early part of the plan? Of course not, but you need to react to it. I think it's safe to assume based on that contract that the plan involved him being around for a bit. But hey, if they did plan on that, well then that's some incredible foresight. And as a side note, only in Buffalo could both Berglund and Vontae Davis happen in the same year. The best thing that happened to Buffalo was Berglund bailing out. He was an inconsequential player whose departure as a player meant little and had the extra benefit of saving money from his substracted contract. He is an example of a player whose can't performance precipitously declined because his heart wasn't in it in Buffalo. In an effort sport that is self-sabotaging. I understand and to a degree sympathetic to his plight but that's the nature of the business. In general, l disagree with you and Plezmd regarding the schedule for success. The process can't be predicted because you don't know in advance about each individual prospect's rate of development. Will Tage or Mittelstadt or Nylander or Pilot or Guhle etc be dramatically better next year? No one can predict. But I believe that these players will eventually become good players for us. There are some who are less optimistic about their prospects. There's no magic or hidden recipe from turning around a bottom-feeding team to being a contending team. You make your picks, develop them and then phase them in. It's not a quick process because it never was. Chicago was bad for a decade or more and was playing in an empty building. Eventually their high picks developed and they were good for a long time. The same process applied to Pittsburgh; and the same process applied to the Capitals; and the same process applied to Toronto etc. No one is denying that it is frustrating being in the midst of this excruciating and exasperating process. It's my firm belief that deviating from the process in order to gain some short term success not only results in extending the process but more often than not derails it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, JohnC said: The best thing that happened to Buffalo was Berglund bailing out. He was an inconsequential player whose departure as a player meant little and had the extra benefit of saving money from his substracted contract. He is an example of a player whose can't performance precipitously declined because his heart wasn't in it in Buffalo. In an effort sport that is self-sabotaging. I understand and to a degree sympathetic to his plight but that's the nature of the business. In general, l disagree with you and Plezmd regarding the schedule for success. The process can't be predicted because you don't know in advance about each individual prospect's rate of development. Will Tage or Mittelstadt or Nylander or Pilot or Guhle etc be dramatically better next year? No one can predict. But I believe that these players will eventually become good players for us. There are some who are less optimistic about their prospects. There's no magic or hidden recipe from turning around a bottom-feeding team to being a contending team. You make your picks, develop them and then phase them in. It's not a quick process because it never was. Chicago was bad for a decade or more and was playing in an empty building. Eventually their high picks developed and they were good for a long time. The same process applied to Pittsburgh; and the same process applied to the Capitals; and the same process applied to Toronto etc. No one is denying that it is frustrating being in the midst of this excruciating and exasperating process. It's my firm belief that deviating from the process in order to gain some short term success not only results in extending the process but more often than not derails it. So, status quo then? What would be an acceptable length of time for the “process” to manifest into winning, playoff contending, and cup contending hockey? These are fair questions, especially since we’ve been rebuilding under several different administrations for seven years now. And counting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 22 minutes ago, K-9 said: Unfortunately, you are 100% correct; the Sabres are boxed in by their inflexibility when it comes to roster movement. Which is why they should go radical to create the room necessary. Assign Scandella to Roch, let him get plucked off waivers for nothing in return. Same with Beaulieu. Same with any of the dead weight that has shown no ability to turn it around and aren’t part of the long term plan anyway. Time for the full youth movement to commence. Housley is just an interim coach, anyway. But we all know they're not going to do this. These ideas may as well be residing as safely in dreamland as those old "Roy for Malkin" style trade proposals that were always thrown out there by a few select winners over on sabrespace. So far, this current group management group has shown no interest in making even the most minor of shake ups. John wants to keep talking about "follow the plan, follow the plan". I don't understand why that plan wouldn't call from giving more than just a 3 or 4 game shot to a Smith or Nylander type. It's not that hard to make that happen. No one's claiming Elie if you waive him. Hell, if you want to sit out Pilut, send him down for a day or two to make room for a fresh blood forward call up. It's not happening now while they're on the road, but they really need to do something like this after the break. 8 minutes ago, K-9 said: So, status quo then? What would be an acceptable length of time for the “process” to manifest into winning, playoff contending, and cup contending hockey? These are fair questions, especially since we’ve been rebuilding under several different administrations for seven years now. And counting. And how much of Jack's window do you want to throw away? If we're counting on these 3 upcoming first round picks to fill these big hole in the lineup, Jack is at least 25-26 once they're even close to making it into the lineup. Just look at Nylander's career path. That's much closer to what you should expect from a prospect as opposed to Mittlestadt stepping in after one year... and even still with very marginal results. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, K-9 said: So, status quo then? What would be an acceptable length of time for the “process” to manifest into winning, playoff contending, and cup contending hockey? These are fair questions, especially since we’ve been rebuilding under several different administrations for seven years now. And counting. You ask what is the time span. That's a fair question but the process has become an extended process because we keep starting over. What happened when Pegula bought the franchise? There was the intrigue with LaFontaine and who was actually running the ship. Then there was the blustering Murray who talked a good game but his decisions lacked coherency. Then Botterill took over for the operation and used his first year to assess what he had throughout the organization.(That was a smart approach to take.) How many years were squandered in this constant churning of front offices? I'm resolutely sticking with Botterill and his blueprint of emphasizing drafting and developing. Eventually you will get to the point that you have an established system and then can make more consequential deals. If you want me to make a guess how much longer a will say at least another two years. I'm counting on Mittelstadt, Tage, Guhle, Pilut, Guhle and another one or two farm players to develop to the point that they are authentic NHL players. What has set this franchise back is the constant changing of the front office and coaching staff. Pegula shares a lot of blame for that instability. I think that he has finally learned from both franchises that he needed to get the front office/s in place and then empower them. Again, I'm predicting two years to get to the point of being a serious team. I believe in Botterill and the blueprint he has laid out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 minute ago, shrader said: But we all know they're not going to do this. These ideas may as well be residing as safely in dreamland as those old "Roy for Malkin" style trade proposals that were always thrown out there by a few select winners over on sabrespace. So far, this current group management group has shown no interest in making even the most minor of shake ups. John wants to keep talking about "follow the plan, follow the plan". I don't understand why that plan wouldn't call from giving more than just a 3 or 4 game shot to a Smith or Nylander type. It's not that hard to make that happen. No one's claiming Elie if you waive him. Hell, if you want to sit out Pilut, send him down for a day or two to make room for a fresh blood forward call up. It's not happening now while they're on the road, but they really need to do something like this after the break. Unfortunately, again, you’re right. As Plenz pointed out, this team has actually regressed under Housley’s tutelage since replacing Bylsma, the 10 game streak notwithstanding. I admire JBott’s commitment to developing a consistent contender in Rochester. But he does that at the expense of the Sabres currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, K-9 said: Unfortunately, again, you’re right. As Plenz pointed out, this team has actually regressed under Housley’s tutelage since replacing Bylsma, the 10 game streak notwithstanding. I admire JBott’s commitment to developing a consistent contender in Rochester. But he does that at the expense of the Sabres currently. Our goal this year, and every year, is to win the Calder Cup. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, shrader said: But we all know they're not going to do this. These ideas may as well be residing as safely in dreamland as those old "Roy for Malkin" style trade proposals that were always thrown out there by a few select winners over on sabrespace. So far, this current group management group has shown no interest in making even the most minor of shake ups. John wants to keep talking about "follow the plan, follow the plan". I don't understand why that plan wouldn't call from giving more than just a 3 or 4 game shot to a Smith or Nylander type. It's not that hard to make that happen. No one's claiming Elie if you waive him. Hell, if you want to sit out Pilut, send him down for a day or two to make room for a fresh blood forward call up. It's not happening now while they're on the road, but they really need to do something like this after the break. And how much of Jack's window do you want to throw away? If we're counting on these 3 upcoming first round picks to fill these big hole in the lineup, Jack is at least 25-26 once they're even close to making it into the lineup. Just look at Nylander's career path. That's much closer to what you should expect from a prospect as opposed to Mittlestadt stepping in after one year... and even still with very marginal results. Odds are that Nylander will be brought up this year. If not, he will be a full-time NHL player next year. Paul Hamilton from WGR stated that the front office considered placing Mittelstadt and even Tage in the AHL. It concluded that keeping them with the big club was the best route for their development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, JohnC said: You ask what is the time span. That's a fair question but the process has become an extended process because we keep starting over. What happened when Pegula bought the franchise? There was the intrigue with LaFontaine and who was actually running the ship. Then there was the blustering Murray who talked a good game but his decisions lacked coherency. Then Botterill took over for the operation and used his first year to assess what he had throughout the organization.(That was a smart approach to take.) How many years were squandered in this constant churning of front offices? I'm resolutely sticking with Botterill and his blueprint of emphasizing drafting and developing. Eventually you will get to the point that you have an established system and then can make more consequential deals. If you want me to make a guess how much longer a will say at least another two years. I'm counting on Mittelstadt, Tage, Guhle, Pilut, Guhle and another one or two farm players to develop to the point that they are authentic NHL players. What has set this franchise back is the constant changing of the front office and coaching staff. Pegula shares a lot of blame for that instability. I think that he has finally learned from both franchises that he needed to get the front office/s in place and then empower them. Again, I'm predicting two years to get to the point of being a serious team. I believe in Botterill and the blueprint he has laid out. All fair points to be sure. But this fan base has had it, I’m afraid. It’s a tough ask of fans to be patient, yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 minute ago, JohnC said: Odds are that Nylander will be brought up this year. If not, he will be a full-time NHL player next year. Paul Hamilton from WGR stated that the front office considered placing Mittelstadt and even Tage in the AHL. It concluded that keeping them with the big club was the best route for their development. I'd love to know why it's better for some but not for others. Nylander at 20 is better off in the AHL while Mittelstadt (also 20) and Thompson (21) are better off in the NHL. I don't mean to claim that Nylander should be here now, but that explanation really doesn't add up to me. If anything, he should be the most familiar with the Sabre system (and I don't mean that stench of losing) of the three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, K-9 said: All fair points to be sure. But this fan base has had it, I’m afraid. It’s a tough ask of fans to be patient, yet again. I agree that the fan base is very bruised and battered and frustrated. However, what I don't want to see happen is this franchise make short-term deals in order for us to be respectable at the expense of being good a year or two later. As I stated in a prior post Chicago, Pitts, Toronto, Washington etc went through some extended droughts before becoming cup contending teams. This constant temptation to quicken the pace in order to forestall the frustrations associated with a rebuild ends up setting us back rather than moving us forward. I have confidence in Botterill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Just now, JohnC said: I agree that the fan base is very bruised and battered and frustrated. However, what I don't want to see happen is this franchise make short-term deals in order for us to be respectable at the expense of being good a year or two later. As I stated in a prior post Chicago, Pitts, Toronto, Washington etc went through some extended droughts before becoming cup contending teams. This constant temptation to quicken the pace in order to forestall the frustrations associated with a rebuild ends up setting us back rather than moving us forward. I have confidence in Botterill! All well and good. But we need to accept the fact that the building will be half full. And when it is full, it will be half opposing team fans. That’s gonna wear on the players, too, and Botts will have to do a better selling job to them than to us fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, shrader said: I'd love to know why it's better for some but not for others. Nylander at 20 is better off in the AHL while Mittelstadt (also 20) and Thompson (21) are better off in the NHL. I don't mean to claim that Nylander should be here now, but that explanation really doesn't add up to me. If anything, he should be the most familiar with the Sabre system (and I don't mean that stench of losing) of the three. When you have a lot of good prospects sometimes it is self-defeating to bring them up all at once because the team can't absorb all of them at the same time and remain competitive. Tage was not playing too much in the beginning of the year. But the coaches were working with him on an individual basis in practice. Now he is playing regularly. These are not easy decisions. The staff makes a lot of judgments based on what they believe is the best approach to take for each player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, JohnC said: I agree that the fan base is very bruised and battered and frustrated. However, what I don't want to see happen is this franchise make short-term deals in order for us to be respectable at the expense of being good a year or two later. As I stated in a prior post Chicago, Pitts, Toronto, Washington etc went through some extended droughts before becoming cup contending teams. This constant temptation to quicken the pace in order to forestall the frustrations associated with a rebuild ends up setting us back rather than moving us forward. I have confidence in Botterill! Making the team better today and making them better for the future are not mutually exclusive. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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