77% were wrong believing our HC wouldn't be fooled by the mirage of preseason, but the Allen Era begins week 2!

[Zerovoltz]

5 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Well this sounds like an appropriate post 

 

It's rather odd you chose this analogy. Do you have issues of your own?

 

As to the point and disregarding your absurd analogy, how far exactly does Allen have to go? How much further ahead are Peterman and McCarron from where he is right now? Regardless of whatever progression Allen needs, what makes you think his progression will be better served on the bench than on the field?

 

I won't post the quotes or links again, but Allen's OC Brent Vigen (who also coached Carson Wentz) raved about Allen's progression in college and his ability to immediately step into the NFL and execute an NFL offense. Our GM Beane essentially shot down the national narrative that Allen is (too) raw in a post draft interview with Buffalo News.

 

He's also getting plenty of praise from teammates so far, including Shady, who's likely about the most bluntly honest player on our team.

 

Allen might be ready to start. That'll be determined this Summer. If he is and is better than Peterman and McCarron, I want him starting. 

 

1.  What Vigen says and what he actually did are two completely different things.  For a guy who is supposed to be the best guy on your team, the best guy on the field...the play calling sure does suggest they tried to avoid putting it on Allen as much as they possibly could.....

 

2.  Allen may very well be better than Peterman and MacCarron right now (in fact, he probalby is BETTER) but being better than Peterman and McCarron is a low hurdle IMO.  Even if he is "better" than doesn't mean he is "ready".  ....he should start when the coaches think there is nothing else to be gained by sitting.  I don't propose to know what that means because I think QB's do the vast majority of their learning by playing in games...so if the coaches think ALLEN has improved and learned all he can while sitting, then he should start and see what he can do and how/if he progresses in real games.  Whenever you get to that point, start him.  That might mean week 1, or it might mean week 1 next year.

[transplantbillsfan]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/josh-allen-there-really-is-no-pressure-heading-into-rookie-season-with-the-bills/amp/

There's a good chance Allen wins the starting job ahead of the season because he currently shares the depth chart with 2017 fifth-rounder Nathan Peterman, who briefly replaced Taylor in the lineup last November and promptly threw five interceptions in 30 minutes of football. The Bills also signed veteran AJ McCarron, who spent the first four seasons of his career with the Bengals, where he started four games (including a playoff game) in 2015 after Andy Dalton went down with a thumb injury.

"I think Josh is a mature guy who has handled his responsibilities the right way," said Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll. "He works hard. He improves. He listens to the veterans and coaches. If he makes a mistake one day, he works really hard to try and fix it the next day. He has the right attitude."

On 7/8/2018 at 2:03 PM, Zerovotlz said:

 

1.  What Vigen says and what he actually did are two completely different things.  For a guy who is supposed to be the best guy on your team, the best guy on the field...the play calling sure does suggest they tried to avoid putting it on Allen as much as they possibly could.....

 

Actually Vigen explained that, as well. Been posted more than once.

 

On 7/8/2018 at 2:03 PM, Zerovotlz said:

 

2.  Allen may very well be better than Peterman and MacCarron right now (in fact, he probalby is BETTER) but being better than Peterman and McCarron is a low hurdle IMO.  Even if he is "better" than doesn't mean he is "ready".  ....he should start when the coaches think there is nothing else to be gained by sitting.  I don't propose to know what that means because I think QB's do the vast majority of their learning by playing in games...so if the coaches think ALLEN has improved and learned all he can while sitting, then he should start and see what he can do and how/if he progresses in real games.  Whenever you get to that point, start him.  That might mean week 1, or it might mean week 1 next year.

 

Wait... so right here you acknowledge that Allen is probably better than Peterman or McCarron already. 

 

I agree that's most likely the case, and that's why he's most likely to start week 1.

 

It's going to be extremely difficult to explain away to your vets why you aren't starting the best QB on the roster. And McDermott preaches open competition all the time...

 

If Allen wins that competition, he's the starter. Dabol and McDermott will likely have some sort of plan in terms of game planning and what not to protect him throughout the season.

[Zerovoltz]

3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/josh-allen-there-really-is-no-pressure-heading-into-rookie-season-with-the-bills/amp/

There's a good chance Allen wins the starting job ahead of the season because he currently shares the depth chart with 2017 fifth-rounder Nathan Peterman, who briefly replaced Taylor in the lineup last November and promptly threw five interceptions in 30 minutes of football. The Bills also signed veteran AJ McCarron, who spent the first four seasons of his career with the Bengals, where he started four games (including a playoff game) in 2015 after Andy Dalton went down with a thumb injury.

"I think Josh is a mature guy who has handled his responsibilities the right way," said Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll. "He works hard. He improves. He listens to the veterans and coaches. If he makes a mistake one day, he works really hard to try and fix it the next day. He has the right attitude."

 

Actually Vigen explained that, as well. Been posted more than once.

 

 

Wait... so right here you acknowledge that Allen is probably better than Peterman or McCarron already. 

 

I agree that's most likely the case, and that's why he's most likely to start week 1.

 

It's going to be extremely difficult to explain away to your vets why you aren't starting the best QB on the roster. And McDermott preaches open competition all the time...

 

If Allen wins that competition, he's the starter. Dabol and McDermott will likely have some sort of plan in terms of game planning and what not to protect him throughout the season.

 

I can understand your point, but consider David Carr.....he was better than anything the Texans had the moment he was drafted.  That doesn't mean he was ready....and behind a bad line, he got clobbered.....now, he may never had amounted to anyhting...or maybe in a better situation he could have....there's no way to say...but MIGHT it have been better to let some journeyman get killed at first while Carr had more time to practice good football in a controlled practice environment?  maybe.  Allen is a long term investment.  If you really wanted a QB that was plug and play you could easily have outspent Denver and brought in Keenum.....All I am saying is that considering what Allen IS NOW....a physical specimen that the scouts all said would need some time to develope...AND who your own head coach has said will take time to develop.....I would say that even if Allen is the best QB on the team.....if the coaches say he isn't ready yet.....then let Peterman or McCarron go out there until he is READY.  They are expendable.  I also get how the veterans might take that wrong by holding back the "best" player to help the team win....I would think that your coach has enough credibility in the locker room for those guys to understand "the process"  ....and consider once again, if Allen was plug and play ready, he would have gone 1/1.  If you trust your coach...he'll know when Allen is "ready" and that is when he will see the field.   

[transplantbillsfan]

19 hours ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

I can understand your point, but consider David Carr.....he was better than anything the Texans had the moment he was drafted.  That doesn't mean he was ready....and behind a bad line, he got clobbered.....now, he may never had amounted to anyhting...or maybe in a better situation he could have....there's no way to say...but MIGHT it have been better to let some journeyman get killed at first while Carr had more time to practice good football in a controlled practice environment?  maybe.  Allen is a long term investment.  If you really wanted a QB that was plug and play you could easily have outspent Denver and brought in Keenum.....All I am saying is that considering what Allen IS NOW....a physical specimen that the scouts all said would need some time to develope...AND who your own head coach has said will take time to develop.....I would say that even if Allen is the best QB on the team.....if the coaches say he isn't ready yet.....then let Peterman or McCarron go out there until he is READY.  They are expendable.  I also get how the veterans might take that wrong by holding back the "best" player to help the team win....I would think that your coach has enough credibility in the locker room for those guys to understand "the process"  ....and consider once again, if Allen was plug and play ready, he would have gone 1/1.  If you trust your coach...he'll know when Allen is "ready" and that is when he will see the field.   

 

David Carr was thrust into an absolute shitstorm. He never stood a chance with that team. They were an expansion team and their #1 player in the expansion draft never played a down for them. That was All-pro OL Tony Boseli. Yeah, he might've helped a little.

 

Otherwise, they had absolutely nothing. Again, they were an expansion team and they decided to start their #1 draft pick immediately despit bringing entirely new players and coaches together across the NFL and college in their very 1st year. 

 

And David Carr, while very talented and likely ruined by poor choices by the Texans, was pretty immobile. He wasn't remotely elusive in the way Allen is.

 

I agree that Carr is a great example of a rookie QB being mismanaged, but we look NOTHING like the 2002 Texans.

[Zerovoltz]

1 minute ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

David Carr was thrust into an absolute shitstorm. He never stood a chance with that team. They were an expansion team and their #1 player in the expansion draft never played a down for them. That was All-pro OL Tony Boseli. Yeah, he might've helped a little.

 

Otherwise, they had absolutely nothing. Again, they were an expansion team and they decided to start their #1 draft pick immediately despit bringing entirely new players and coaches together across the NFL and college in their very 1st year. 

 

And David Carr, while very talented and likely ruined by poor choices by the Texans, was pretty immobile. He wasn't remotely elusive in the way Allen is.

 

I agree that Carr is a great example of a rookie QB being mismanaged, but we look NOTHING like the 2002 Texans.

 

I guess it is worth asking if you think even if Allen is the best option RIGHT NOW....is there a benefit to HIM and the team, staying on the bench until he shows some sort of tangibile, meaningful progress (in the eyes of the coaching staff) ?  ....if you don't think there is a benefit (and you may well be 100% right there isn't any) then he should start.  My whole point on this is that I believe the scouting reports and what own coach has to say about him...and that is he needs to develop on the bench.  I would normally agree that a guy learns better and faster by playing, but Allen I think...as his scouting reports suggested prior to draft day....he is one of the few guys who can make tangible, measurable progress on the bench and on the practive field and in the classroom.

[Lfod]

22 minutes ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

I guess it is worth asking if you think even if Allen is the best option RIGHT NOW....is there a benefit to HIM and the team, staying on the bench until he shows some sort of tangibile, meaningful progress (in the eyes of the coaching staff) ?  ....if you don't think there is a benefit (and you may well be 100% right there isn't any) then he should start.  My whole point on this is that I believe the scouting reports and what own coach has to say about him...and that is he needs to develop on the bench.  I would normally agree that a guy learns better and faster by playing, but Allen I think...as his scouting reports suggested prior to draft day....he is one of the few guys who can make tangible, measurable progress on the bench and on the practive field and in the classroom.

I've been over the situation with transplant. He isn't budging. Believe me I tried. I am not much in favor of Allen starting besides excitement. Strategy wise I'm against it. He does have some good points when it comes to odds. At this point anything really is possible.

 

I'm taking the laid back view. I don't believe my team is good enough to merit putting in Josh Allen. I am excited about my team. I think the difference in coaching showed last season. I'm hopeful. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Lfod

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

I guess it is worth asking if you think even if Allen is the best option RIGHT NOW....is there a benefit to HIM and the team, staying on the bench until he shows some sort of tangibile, meaningful progress (in the eyes of the coaching staff) ?  ....if you don't think there is a benefit (and you may well be 100% right there isn't any) then he should start.  My whole point on this is that I believe the scouting reports and what own coach has to say about him...and that is he needs to develop on the bench.  I would normally agree that a guy learns better and faster by playing, but Allen I think...as his scouting reports suggested prior to draft day....he is one of the few guys who can make tangible, measurable progress on the bench and on the practive field and in the classroom.

 

This is a great example of two people reasonably disagreeing.

 

I completely understand and respect your reasoning here.

 

I'm of the opinion that Allen, if he's the best QB on our roster right now (which you concede he likely is), should start right away because he'll learn better on the field than on the bench.

 

My reasoning essentially boils down to the fact that Allen is by all accounts a very late bloomer and late to being immersed in the position of QB the way most other Division I QBs are and, therefore, also seems to be a very fast learner. He's smart. On top of that, he's big, he's tough, he's elusive and athletic (faster 40 time at the Combine than Carson Wentz), so I'll be less worried about having the perfect OL--and I actually think ours will be significantly better than most believe.

 

If Peterman or McCarron are the better QB during the offseason, he should start. Otherwise, I think this team as a whole is built up enough to weather the storm of some rookie yips. Afterall, we had a QB who was one of the worst QBs in the NFL last year and we broke the longest playoff drought in sports 

[transplantbillsfan]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalowdown.com/2018/07/12/buffalo-bills-aj-mccarron-seen-dark-horse-mvp-candidate/amp/

Buffalo Bills: AJ McCarron seen as a dark horse MVP candidate

The best case scenario is that McCarron wins the job easily and proves that he always deserved the chance to lead a team. He comes out and gets the Bills back to the postseason and is hailed a hero. The worst case scenario for him is that he doesn’t get the chance to start and is labeled a career backup. He may not even remain in Buffalo to start the season if he isn’t named the starter.

 

 

I agree with the quoted portion of the article, and obviously hope if McCarron starts he'd be an MVP candidate.

[billsredneck1]

5 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalowdown.com/2018/07/12/buffalo-bills-aj-mccarron-seen-dark-horse-mvp-candidate/amp/

Buffalo Bills: AJ McCarron seen as a dark horse MVP candidate

The best case scenario is that McCarron wins the job easily and proves that he always deserved the chance to lead a team. He comes out and gets the Bills back to the postseason and is hailed a hero. The worst case scenario for him is that he doesn’t get the chance to start and is labeled a career backup. He may not even remain in Buffalo to start the season if he isn’t named the starter.

 

 

I agree with the quoted portion of the article, and obviously hope if McCarron starts he'd be an MVP candidate.

i think he's a gamer and not to live on his college accolades, he still holds( i believe) the all time passing yards at alabama surpassing some former greats. i think he can give us a good chance to win enough to reach the post season. i really hope we carry 3.

 

in no way ,shape or form do i want to see allen exposed to our first 4 opponents. there's always a chance of injury and if a.j stats and gets hurt, i want to see nate before allen gets tossed in too early. i am pretty excited to see a much improved passing attack no matter who is playing.

Edited July 13, 2018 by billsredneck1

[transplantbillsfan]

16 hours ago, billsredneck1 said:

i think he's a gamer and not to live on his college accolades, he still holds( i believe) the all time passing yards at alabama surpassing some former greats. i think he can give us a good chance to win enough to reach the post season. i really hope we carry 3.

 

in no way ,shape or form do i want to see allen exposed to our first 4 opponents. there's always a chance of injury and if a.j stats and gets hurt, i want to see nate before allen gets tossed in too early. i am pretty excited to see a much improved passing attack no matter who is playing.

 

The best QB at the moment the season starts is the QB who I'd bet McDermott will start. It might not be Allen, but if it is, I just think this notion that Allen needs to be protected for 4 games and then you can throw him to the wolves is weird.

 

I think those people who believe no matter what that Allen should sit and learn the whole year like Mahomes did last year have a much more reasonable argument--even if I still disagree with it--than those who are stressing how imperative it is that Allen doesn't play for the first 4 games, but it's somehow okay after week 4.

 

Or week 5.

 

Or week 7.

 

Or after the bye.

 

Or whatever finite game people are arguing Allen must sit on the bench for before he's allowed to play in the 2018 regular season.

 

The best QB is who I bet starts week 1. And let's hope we all see an improved passing attack no matter who's under center. And if that's Peterman, let's hope he stops passing to the other team.

[billsredneck1]

11 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

The best QB at the moment the season starts is the QB who I'd bet McDermott will start. It might not be Allen, but if it is, I just think this notion that Allen needs to be protected for 4 games and then you can throw him to the wolves is weird.

 

I think those people who believe no matter what that Allen should sit and learn the whole year like Mahomes did last year have a much more reasonable argument--even if I still disagree with it--than those who are stressing how imperative it is that Allen doesn't play for the first 4 games, but it's somehow okay after week 4.

 

Or week 5.

 

Or week 7.

 

Or after the bye.

 

Or whatever finite game people are arguing Allen must sit on the bench for before he's allowed to play in the 2018 regular season.

 

The best QB is who I bet starts week 1. And let's hope we all see an improved passing attack no matter who's under center. And if that's Peterman, let's hope he stops passing to the other team.

i wasn't saying specifically"throw him in game 5". it's just that the first 4 opponents could very badly kick the snot out of any qb, let alone a rookie. if he gets his bell rung and slings picks in the chargers game , everyone will question the decision just like last year.

 

i am definitely in the camp of " i don't mind at all if he sits a year"....and probably would prefer it,  although it would be nice if we had a playoff spot wrapped up and he gets the last game or two.  btw there is no difference between wanting him to sit a year and wanting him to, at the very least, sit the first 4 games.

On 7/6/2018 at 11:24 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000939509/article/ranking-divisions-by-quarterback-nfc-north-nfc-west-top-list

For the sake of this exercise, I'm going to lift up the division by projecting that Allen and Darnold will play sooner than later. In fact, I give both a chance to start in Week 1. Especially Allen. I don't want to hear about AJ McCarron. And spare me the Nathan Peterman nonsense. The Bills smartly traded up for Allen because he's the next Carson Wentz and oozes talent. I believe in Darnold, too. I hope he wins the Jets' job. Meanwhile, Tom Brady is the greatest of all time. And Tannehill is a guy.

you seem to be pretty full...er....sure of yourself. would you bet money on allen starting?  not looking for a bet, just wondering.....because you are wrong. i'd say there's a 10% chance on allen starting and don't forget the team council has just as much say in the decision as mcdermott.

On 7/8/2018 at 8:28 AM, Gigs said:

Anyone who wants Allen to start at any point this year must cum within a minute or something. You people have absolutely no patience and don’t realize how far he has to go. But hey, keep cumming in a minute, that’ll make her happy. 

i could have done the smiley face but this was just too dam good!  awesome analogy!

[transplantbillsfan]

2 hours ago, billsredneck1 said:

you seem to be pretty full...er....sure of yourself. would you bet money on allen starting?  not looking for a bet, just wondering.....because you are wrong. i'd say there's a 10% chance on allen starting and don't forget the team council has just as much say in the decision as mcdermott.

 

You understand that those are the words of Adam Schein that I copied and pasted from the link I provided, right?

 

No, I'm not looking for a bet because I'm not 100% or 90% or 80% confident Allen will start week 1.

 

As I said multiple times in this thread already, I'm roughly 50/50 on Allen winning the job during TC and preseason and starting week 1. I'd hardly call that sheer confidence.

 

But as to your last point, I'd argue that the team counsel being involved in the decision gives Allen a better chance to start rather than a worse chance. Think about the impression he's already made on McCoy and Hyde who've come out publicly about that. Not to mention, the entire team saw firsthand Peterman's chokejobs last year.

[billsredneck1]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You understand that those are the words of Adam Schein that I copied and pasted from the link I provided, right?

 

No, I'm not looking for a bet because I'm not 100% or 90% or 80% confident Allen will start week 1.

 

As I said multiple times in this thread already, I'm roughly 50/50 on Allen winning the job during TC and preseason and starting week 1. I'd hardly call that sheer confidence.

 

But as to your last point, I'd argue that the team counsel being involved in the decision gives Allen a better chance to start rather than a worse chance. Think about the impression he's already made on McCoy and Hyde who've come out publicly about that. Not to mention, the entire team saw firsthand Peterman's chokejobs last year.

ok whatever.....but i wouldn't brag about quoting adam stain.

[transplantbillsfan]

7 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

ok whatever.....but i wouldn't brag about quoting adam stain.

 

I didn't brag... not a single word of that post was my own.

 

Maybe try to not jump to conclusions so quickly.

Edited July 14, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[billsredneck1]

Just now, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I didn't brag... not a single word of that post was my own.

i figured that but since but since adam sh..stain has been....well ...a sh..stain, i wouldn't recommend him as a voice of authority...let alone a voice of this team.....therefore i wouldn't quote him in order to support a personal opinion.

[transplantbillsfan]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/billswire.usatoday.com/2018/07/13/ben-mcadoo-pat-shurmur-have-buffalo-bills-josh-allen-as-top-rookie-qb/amp/

Ben McAdoo, Pat Shurmur have Bills' Josh Allen as top rookie QB

Whether it’s the current New York Giants’ coaching staff or the former one, if the G-Men were looking to draft a quarterback at the 2018 NFL Draft, the man at the top of their board would’ve been Buffalo Bills rookie Josh Allen.

[transplantbillsfan]

This quote by McDermott is one I hadn't seen before and seems to be pretty ambiguous on who starts at QB for us and leaves the door as open for Allen to win the job as McDermott might.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.democratandchronicle.com/amp/783231002

“There’s been moments along the way through Josh’s career as a Bill to this point where you’re saying, ‘I knew he was here (at this level), but in fact, we think he’s a little bit further along than that in some areas,’” McDermott said. “That said, (there is) still a lot of work to do. We’re not going to put him out there unless we feel like he’s ready and that’s the important part of this, that we develop a nice foundation of strong fundamentals and football knowledge so that he can go out there and execute.”

[Zerovoltz]

59 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

This quote by McDermott is one I hadn't seen before and seems to be pretty ambiguous on who starts at QB for us and leaves the door as open for Allen to win the job as McDermott might.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.democratandchronicle.com/amp/783231002

“There’s been moments along the way through Josh’s career as a Bill to this point where you’re saying, ‘I knew he was here (at this level), but in fact, we think he’s a little bit further along than that in some areas,’” McDermott said. “That said, (there is) still a lot of work to do. We’re not going to put him out there unless we feel like he’s ready and that’s the important part of this, that we develop a nice foundation of strong fundamentals and football knowledge so that he can go out there and execute.”

 

This is the approach I have been advocating the whole time...the wording here is important....."We're not going to put him out there unless we feel like he's READY and that's the important part of this, that we develop a nice foundation of strong fundamentals and football knowledge so that he can go out there and execute."  

 

He did not say we are going to put him out there when he is BETTER THAN THE OTHER GUYS.  He most likely already IS better than them.  This quote shows your coaching staffs thoughts are right in line with the pre draft scouting report that said he'd need work to improve his fundamentals and football knowledge.  .....again, I am normally an advocate of getting a guy on the field ASAP, but in this case, I agree with the scouting reports...and your coaches.

[transplantbillsfan]

4 hours ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

This is the approach I have been advocating the whole time...the wording here is important....."We're not going to put him out there unless we feel like he's READY and that's the important part of this, that we develop a nice foundation of strong fundamentals and football knowledge so that he can go out there and execute."  

 

He did not say we are going to put him out there when he is BETTER THAN THE OTHER GUYS.  He most likely already IS better than them.  This quote shows your coaching staffs thoughts are right in line with the pre draft scouting report that said he'd need work to improve his fundamentals and football knowledge.  .....again, I am normally an advocate of getting a guy on the field ASAP, but in this case, I agree with the scouting reports...and your coaches.

 

Interesting interpretation. Really feels like you're reaching here trying to somehow stretch McDermott directly stating that Allen is more developed and further along in some ways than they thought initially (and lest we forget Beane's public rebuke of the preseason draft national narrative that Allen is somehow more "raw" than the other prospects or other historical 1st round rookies) followed by the incredibly obvious statement that we're not going to put him out there unless we feel he's ready.

 

Well duuuuhhhhh...

 

What coach would not do that? Or what good coach would not do that?

 

You might agree with Allen's scouting reports. But that really doesn't relate to what McDermott said and might even be counter to it.

 

If Allen is already better than McCarron and Peterman as you concede he likely is, but he's still not ready, Beane deserves to be fired for not seriously addressing the 2018 QB position. 

 

You're massively insulting Peterman and McCarron, and if they're as bad as you seem to think they are, we're screwed.

 

Luckily, I think you're very wrong in more ways than one here.

[BigDingus]

I think McCarron, even if Peterman outplays him in camp.

Seems Peterman is a good practice kind of guy, and the coaches might be tepid on starting him again.

McCarron was brought in to be the starter "for now," with the hopes that he may end up being a steal. Even if he doesn't light it up in camp/preseason, they'll probably give him the benefit of the doubt going in.

I don't see any way Allen starts week 1 unless he completely kills it against 3rd teamers in preseason for a couple games, gets a shot with the 1's in the 3rd preseason game, then kills it there. Outside of that, he's shooting for #2 at best.