QBs, NFL Draft, Identity Politics (New Poster)

[Bing Bong]

48 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I think Jackson's ceiling is Eagles Michael Vick. Vick on the Eagles worked so well for that one season or two. He was dynamic yet smart with his legs and a much more willing passer and capable of establishing his passing ability early in games. 

Only one season. That was an amazing version of Vick. It was his first year back he subbed in for like Kolb on injury and just straight blew up. Could have been MVP if he played all year.

 

It was like the football rust made him at his freshest happiest he had been his whole career, just having the chance to ball out without caring about the consequences, he had nothing to lose. His career makes for a great story I'll say that.

 

I guess Lamar has that ceiling but that was a perfect storm of Vick in his final years of prime with nothing to lose, and a redemption agenda. I don't think that kind of quarterbacking happens again. It is NFL lore not to get too cheesy.. Comparable to Tommy Maddox's one year one wonder. Or Flutie's resurgence. Delhome etc.

Edited March 30, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[xxxxxxxx]

41 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Only one season. That was an amazing version of Vick. It was his first year back he subbed in for like Kolb on injury and just straight blew up. Could have been MVP if he played all year.

 

It was like the football rust made him at his freshest happiest he had been his whole career, just having the chance to ball out without caring about the consequences, he had nothing to lose. His career makes for a great story I'll say that.

 

I guess Lamar has that ceiling but that was a perfect storm of Vick in his final years of prime with nothing to lose, and a redemption agenda. I don't think that kind of quarterbacking happens again. It is NFL lore not to get too cheesy.. Comparable to Tommy Maddox's one year one wonder. Or Flutie's resurgence. Delhome etc.

Lamar's success will depend on coaching and system. There is so much smoke surrounding his evaluations, especially considering the fact that many believe that his completion percentage would have been higher with better wideouts. If the narrow base issue is the only problem with his game, its not unreasonable to assume that he could be Mike Vic eagles good after a year or two of seasoning, or somewhere in that ballpark. Its believed that lots of teams are talking smack because they think he just needs the right environment (like Vic with Andy Reid). The more I think about how the draft is shaking out the more intrigued I am with Buffalo taking a sliding lb at 12, grabbing him if he's still there at 22 and maybe even taking a shot at Rudolph if he is still there in round 2. 

[Bing Bong]

2 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Lamar's success will depend on coaching and system. There is so much smoke surrounding his evaluations, especially considering the fact that many believe that his completion percentage would have been higher with better wideouts. If the narrow base issue is the only problem with his game, its not unreasonable to assume that he could be Mike Vic eagles good after a year or two of seasoning, or somewhere in that ballpark. Its believed that lots of teams are talking smack because they think he just needs the right environment (like Vic with Andy Reid). The more I think about how the draft is shaking out the more intrigued I am with Buffalo taking a sliding lb at 12, grabbing him if he's still there at 22 and maybe even taking a shot at Rudolph if he is still there in round 2. 

wouldn't mind that at all.

[xxxxxxxx]

57 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

wouldn't mind that at all.

They already got the Jets to Jump for either Rosen or Allen, and if they can get Miami to move up for Mayfield, we could chase more defensive talent out of the division, stack the D, and develop a QB with a high ceiling slowly. We would also  get to face two rookie QBs twice next year with enough strength on D to demolish any confidence that either might be clinging to.

Edited March 30, 2018 by MURPHD6

[billsfan89]

2 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Only one season. That was an amazing version of Vick. It was his first year back he subbed in for like Kolb on injury and just straight blew up. Could have been MVP if he played all year.

 

It was like the football rust made him at his freshest happiest he had been his whole career, just having the chance to ball out without caring about the consequences, he had nothing to lose. His career makes for a great story I'll say that.

 

I guess Lamar has that ceiling but that was a perfect storm of Vick in his final years of prime with nothing to lose, and a redemption agenda. I don't think that kind of quarterbacking happens again. It is NFL lore not to get too cheesy.. Comparable to Tommy Maddox's one year one wonder. Or Flutie's resurgence. Delhome etc.

3

 

Vick going to jail humbled him a lot and he sat his first year in Philly where he got to learn under Andy Reid's QB friendly system. So by his second year in Philly he was fresh (He had some serious injuries in Atlanta), in a system he knew well, had great weapons (Shady, Maclin, and DeSean Jackson) and still possessed his fantastic athletic ability. It all came together but his follow-up seasons were hampered by injury (Although his follow-up season wasn't bad.) 

 

Had Atlanta Michael Vick been developed properly he would have been an MVP caliber QB for 8-10 years. I see that level of raw athleticism and throwing ability in Jackson. Jackson also does lack some fundamentals and doesn't seem to be the brightest kid. BUT the big difference I see with Jackson and Vick coming out of college is that Jackson seems to be a more coachable person and Jackson has a willingness to be a complete player as a QB. 

 

I think Jackson is a project for sure, lots to develop as a player and as a person. But what he can develop into is insane. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by billsfan89

[xxxxxxxx]

12 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Vick going to jail humbled him a lot and he sat his first year in Philly where he got to learn under Andy Reid's QB friendly system. So by his second year in Philly he was fresh (He had some serious injuries in Atlanta), in a system he knew well, had great weapons (Shady, Maclin, and DeSean Jackson) and still possessed his fantastic athletic ability. It all came together but his follow-up seasons were hampered by injury (Although his follow-up season wasn't bad.) 

 

Had Atlanta Michael Vick been developed properly he would have been an MVP caliber QB for 8-10 years. I see that level of raw athleticism and throwing ability in Jackson. Jackson also does lack some fundamentals and doesn't seem to be the brightest kid. BUT the big difference I see with Jackson and Vick coming out of college is that Jackson seems to be a more coachable person and Jackson has a willingness to be a complete player as a QB. 

 

I think Jackson is a project for sure, lots to develop as a player and as a person. But what he can develop into is insane. 

Its that easy, fast, powerful release. Its amazing.

[billsfan89]

16 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Its that easy, fast, powerful release. Its amazing.

 

I like Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold a bit better as prospects, I think they are more complete and pro-ready players. Darnold and Rosen could come in and start for a team and be better served getting the experience, Mayfield probably should sit for a year or most of a year. Jackson probably should sit for 2 years in an ideal situation. But I don't know why Josh Allen gets more hype than Jackson. I would much rather have Jackson as a project than Allen as a project. I think teams are biased against Jackson for a variety of reasons, some valid some not. I think scouts are falling in love with Allen for a lot of silly reasons. 

 

But I do think that Jackson has the most potential as a prospect than any QB in this draft. But Rosen, Darnold, and Mayfield are less of a project and less risky even if their ceilings are a bit lower. Allen I think is completely overrated. He reminds me of Jay Cutler hype wise coming out of the draft. Now Cutler didn't have a bad pro-career at all but he never was a top level QB, at best he was a top 15 QB for several years here or there but he never lived up to the hype that some placed on him in the draft process. 

 

Scouts are falling in love with Allen's big arm much like scouts fell in love with Cutler's big arm. But I think Allen's fundamentals and decision making are suspect. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by billsfan89

[BigDingus]

Tyrod was bad.  You must not have been taking advantage of Game Pass, or missed quite a few games last year if you think he was still even "pretty good."

He's only "serviceable" if you enjoy managing to barely beat bad-mediocre teams off the back of your defense, and completely falling apart against good teams unless the defense saves the day with 1000 turnovers.

Also, Allen has bust written all over him, and it has nothing to do with him being Jewish. Most normal people could give a s*** if he's Jewish or not, same with NFL GM's & scouts.

If a guy can be a franchise QB, he could be a Satanist who only eats goats slaughtered with his bare hands & they'd take him if he could throw for 250-300 yards & 2+ TD's a game.

[RFL]

On 3/28/2018 at 7:42 AM, CamboBill said:

Thanks. I like Rosen too but fear he might be the next Sam Bradford.

 

My rankings:

 

1) D'arnold  floor: Andy Dalton  Ceiling: Eli Manning

2) Rosen flloor: Sam Bradford  Ceiling: Phil Rivers

3) Jackson: Floor: Vince Young  Ceiling:  Steve Young

4) Allen  Floor: B Bortles  Ceiling:  Ben Rothlusberger

5) Mayfield. Floor: Case Keenum  Ceiling: D Brees

 

But I could live with any.

Im thinking your Mayfield/Brees comparison is bang on

[xxxxxxxx]

20 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

Tyrod was bad.  You must not have been taking advantage of Game Pass, or missed quite a few games last year if you think he was still even "pretty good."

He's only "serviceable" if you enjoy managing to barely beat bad-mediocre teams off the back of your defense, and completely falling apart against good teams unless the defense saves the day with 1000 turnovers.

Also, Allen has bust written all over him, and it has nothing to do with him being Jewish. Most normal people could give a s*** if he's Jewish or not, same with NFL GM's & scouts.

If a guy can be a franchise QB, he could be a Satanist who only eats goats slaughtered with his bare hands & they'd take him if he could throw for 250-300 yards & 2+ TD's a game.

Still bothered by Tyrod, I see. Why not be bothered by Peterman. He was historically bad, god awful really, and he's still on the team. 

[BigDingus]

37 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Still bothered by Tyrod, I see. Why not be bothered by Peterman. He was historically bad, god awful really, and he's still on the team. 

 

Why would you assume I'm not bothered by Peterman?

And although I am, I'm not nearly as bothered as I was with Tyrod for many obvious reasons.

1. One was a rookie 5th round pick, the other was a 7 year veteran.

2. One hadn't started a single game prior to this year, the other was on season 3 as a starter.

3. One has only 2 starts in his career (please tell me how to determine if a guy will have a sucky career in 1 & 1/2 games) to base all his merits on, while the other has 42.

4. He has gotten progressively more timid, and has lead us to dead last, or close to dead last, in passing offense every year he's been starter

5. He has a 3-24 record when their team goes down by even a SINGLE point at any time in the 4th quarter.

6. One was paid like a mid-tier starter, the other is paid like a 5th round rookie (which is virtually nothing)

7. One at least TRIES to look downfield, the other has no game awareness and continues to throw 2 yard passes to RB's when down by 20 on 3rd & long in the 4th quarter.

8. He has had 3 years as starter & only 1 game with 300 yards passing (and that took going into OT to BARELY hit), while he has twice as many games throwing for less than 70...

And that's just the general things that bothered me about TT, along with him actually REGRESSING in his 3 seasons as starter. O

Edited March 31, 2018 by BigDingus

[xxxxxxxx]

1 hour ago, BigDingus said:

 

Why would you assume I'm not bothered by Peterman?

And although I am, I'm not nearly as bothered as I was with Tyrod for many obvious reasons.

1. One was a rookie 5th round pick, the other was a 7 year veteran.

2. One hadn't started a single game prior to this year, the other was on season 3 as a starter.

3. One has only 2 starts in his career (please tell me how to determine if a guy will have a sucky career in 1 & 1/2 games) to base all his merits on, while the other has 42.

4. He has gotten progressively more timid, and has lead us to dead last, or close to dead last, in passing offense every year he's been starter

5. He has a 3-24 record when their team goes down by even a SINGLE point at any time in the 4th quarter.

6. One was paid like a mid-tier starter, the other is paid like a 5th round rookie (which is virtually nothing)

7. One at least TRIES to look downfield, the other has no game awareness and continues to throw 2 yard passes to RB's when down by 20 on 3rd & long in the 4th quarter.

8. He has had 3 years as starter & only 1 game with 300 yards passing (and that took going into OT to BARELY hit), while he has twice as many games throwing for less than 70...

And that's just the general things that bothered me about TT, along with him actually REGRESSING in his 3 seasons as starter. O

Stop trolling please. TT is not the topic of this thread, and he's no longer on the team. Like many before you, you are just trying clog up this thread because it makes you uncomfortable. There are hundreds of TT sucks, and Time to move on from TT threads. Feel free to post there.

Edited March 31, 2018 by MURPHD6

[Teddy KGB]

26 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Stop trolling please. TT is not the topic of this thread, and he's no longer on the team. Like many before you, you are just trying clog up this thread because it makes you uncomfortable. There are hundreds of TT sucks, and Time to move on from TT threads. Feel free to post there.

 

What makes him uncomfortable? 

[Bill from NYC]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 3:59 PM, CamboBill said:

Thank you for at least admitting you are extrapolating what you think I might be saying, rather than what I am actually saying. It is an ugly tactic IMHO. Most of the rest of your post is your usual  obfuscations  and misdirection.  At this point we risk getting into one of those pointless one on one slag fests that nobody wants to read, and frankly I do not have the time for.

 

On a more positive note, I can relate to some of your comments on Kap.  Personally, I respect that him for taking a stand (or knee I guess). On the other hand his protest was poorly thought out as it had no end game.  As you point out , he hurt his cause by allowing "pig" imagery and other leftist causes to get mixed in to his protest image.  Some of this was deliberate misrepresentation  by the far right, but he did himself no favors by not actively and quickly disassociating himself from the more militants items.

 

I think (hope) that most reasonable Americans can agree that there is an excessive use of deadly force by our police these days AND that black communities are the most affected by this.   There is a need for true accountability in such instances and I support efforts to get this done.  However, making the message explicitly antipolice or associating anarchists elements within the movement is not going to fly., and rightly or wrongly that is how many seem to perceive BLM now.

Can't you just go away? This is a football message board, not a forum to spew your whining political views. Please, take your multiple screen names and get lost. The board was a much better place before you arrived.

[xxxxxxxx]

10 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Can't you just go away? This is a football message board, not a forum to spew your whining political views. Please, take your multiple screen names and get lost. The board was a much better place before you arrived.

You don't speak for every fan of this team. Racism is a perfecy legitimate topic to discuss when it comes to QB evaluation. If a small section of people can't handle it, then thats their problem. They have made lots of posts in an efffort to derail this conversation. And all they did was ramp up the post count and creat a situation where more people have joined the talk.

[BigDingus]

11 hours ago, MURPHD6 said:

Stop trolling please. TT is not the topic of this thread, and he's no longer on the team. Like many before you, you are just trying clog up this thread because it makes you uncomfortable. There are hundreds of TT sucks, and Time to move on from TT threads. Feel free to post there.

Maybe you need to get a refresher on what the word "trolling" means.

Just because someone says something you don't like & are overly sensitive & insecure about, doesn't mean that's "trolling."

Grow up. If you can't have a mature conversation, maybe don't ask me a question in the first place. Don't bother responding until you're at least 18 and have watched some football.

Edited March 31, 2018 by BigDingus

[xxxxxxxx]

31 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

Maybe you need to get a refresher on what the word "trolling" means.

Just because someone says something you don't like & are overly sensitive & insecure about, doesn't mean that's "trolling."

Grow up. If you can't have a mature conversation, maybe don't ask me a question in the first place. Don't bother responding until you're at least 18 and have watched some football.

Your not discussing the topic. I did not ask you about your evaluation of TT, nor am I interested in debating your evaluation. I didnt say that you were a racist because you don't like TT, but you do want to argue about him, clearly. If you want to argue about Lamar, no prob. If you want to talk about TT there are other threads. I'm not being immature. Its pretty much standard procedure on this board to direct off topic discussions to other threads. You accused the posters of over evaluating TT, when he was not being duscussed. Thats trolling in my book, or else your just lazy, not reading posts, and wrongly assuming that TT critics were being called racists in this thread, when that wasn't being discussed at all.

Edited March 31, 2018 by MURPHD6

[Juror#8]

Tyrod Taylor was a black qb. Lamar Jackson is a Black qb. I’d prefer not to have a black qb quarterbacking my team. They’re comparatively dim-witted (using the Wunderwhatever test as our guide), and they lean on quickness and athleticism more than they do moving the ball through the air and utilizing skill position players to make plays on the ball that they expertly throw. Black qbs run far too much for my liking. I’m fairly certain that they probably developed that tendency in the hood running from the man. 

 

Either way, that is not what I want representing this team. Black people’s ceilings should be as wide receivers and running backs doing what they’re (admittedly) very good at - which is running away from things and elusiveness ... as they’re accustomed to doing both whether it be from child support, academic pursuits, or other financial responsibilities. 

 

As far as for our qb, we can do better. 

 

Just my opinion. 

 

With sincerity, I remain, 

 

j8

Edited March 31, 2018 by Juror#8

[xxxxxxxx]

Yup no trolls here, none at all.

And I think one of the more interesting things about this thread, which is obvious to losts of lurkers out there, arguably a silent majority. Is just how difficult it is to have a discussion about Black QBs and racism in the Bills fan community. Just scroll threw and see how many people actively don't want this conversation to happen. 

[Juror#8]

14 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Yup no trolls here, none at all.

And I think one of the more interesting things about this thread, which is obvious to losts of lurkers out there, arguably a silent majority. Is just how difficult it is to have a discussion about Black QBs and racism in the Bills fan community. Just scroll threw and see how many people actively don't want this conversation to happen. 

 

Right on man. I think the topic is a good one for discussion. I think black qbs are trash but not from racism, it's from experience and sample size. But it's good that you're calling out those who are just throwing around hate based on the color of someone's skin as opposed to us who don't like black qbs because they've proven to be ineffectual with low ceilings and hard to understand speaking cadences. 

 

I prefer science and facts to bias. 

 

I gave you the thumb thing by the way.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Juror#8