todd Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 I only know of a few "extremists" that back TD. Most people understand his flaws and errors (Drew, GW, Travis and MW). 265742[/snapback] Absolutely. I know of far more extremists that hate TD and find it difficult to see that he has done ANYTHING good at all. I think mostly what people disagree on are what TD's mistakes are. For example, I think TD's biggest mistakes are: GW, the kicking position, and not getting rid of BOTH RJ and Fwootie that first year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Absolutely. I know of far more extremists that hate TD and find it difficult to see that he has done ANYTHING good at all. I think mostly what people disagree on are what TD's mistakes are. For example, I think TD's biggest mistakes are: GW, the kicking position, and not getting rid of BOTH RJ and Fwootie that first year. 265747[/snapback] GW and Drew are #1 and #2 in my book. Everything else is peanuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 No, but that's not even the relevant question. The question is do we Bills fans have a right to question TD's decision-making on this board without being called morons or without being expected to produce a "Fake-Fat Sunny" length essay to support our complaints in order to reach some standard of validity? None of the dissenters here have called for TD's head or have suggested that they themselves could have fielded a better team over the past 4 years. What we've said is that there are a number of reasons that suggest TD isn't doing as good of a job as most here give him credit for... i.e. he shouldn't be considered among the top 4 GM's currently in the league as todd has repeatedly alluded to... 265725[/snapback] The problem is, when you make a post devoted to pointing out TD's mistakes, what do you expect to happen? I don't think most people think he has been error-free, just as most don't think he has made a ton of mistakes. A thread "bashing" TD is extremely unlikely to result in productive conversation. And here's where I think the question of a replacement becomes relevant. If you're only pointing out negatives, it implies (to me at least) that you'd like to see him gone. Fine and good, but who do we replace him with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 GW and Drew are #1 and #2 in my book. Everything else is peanuts. 265753[/snapback] I think his cavalier attitude regarding kickers, as Todd mentioned, has to be up there. Although maybe I should say his poor judgment, since Lindell is certainly getting paid like a good kicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMark Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 todd, Bill from NYC just named 4 better GM's than TD. Why don't you refute his post with more details, and support your dissent with logical arguments? Sincerely, - a moron 265666[/snapback] A simple question, how do we know these 4 are better than TD? I agree the GM of the PATS is better than TD. I ground that assertion in data and from where I look the PATS GM just won a superbowl. However, other than that what is the criteria to which we can judge these other GM's? Moreover, if each environment (salary cap, player development, coaching competency, a meddling owner, etc) in which they work is different that tends to compromise any measure of validity. Seriously, I am not being facetious here, but when people want to judge things it can be pretty irritating to hear generalities and absolutes about performance thrown around like hard evidence. I was a believer in DB, yet I had no problem seeing him go based on the hard data that he underperformed. His performance assessment (that he was a poor QB) passed every test of validity I could think of (construct, face, criterion, concurrent, convergent, and predictive) as such I agree......let him go. However, assesssing a GM is a whole different ball game. It is either simple (winning a superbowl) or complex (measures you and I do not even know exist). I prefer to keep assessing a GM simple. As such, the only good ones are the one's that win a superbowl (sorry Polian). There is no data or evidence to for sure indicate there are 4 better GM's out there better than TD (unless you uncover those that have guided a team to a SB victory). As a result, I return to my question what are you basing the performance on? Once that is answered, there will be no reason to continue throwing the verbal "slings" that have been occuring in this thread. Debate is good if there is a purpose. If not, it is counterproductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 A simple question, how do we know these 4 are better than TD? I agree the GM of the PATS is better than TD. I ground that assertion in data and from where I look the PATS GM just won a superbowl. However, other than that what is the criteria to which we can judge these other GM's? Moreover, if each environment (salary cap, player development, coaching competency, a meddling owner, etc) in which they work is different that tends to compromise any measure of validity. Seriously, I am not being facetious here, but when people want to judge things it can be pretty irritating to hear generalities and absolutes about performance thrown around like hard evidence. I was a believer in DB, yet I had no problem seeing him go based on the hard data that he underperformed. His performance assessment (that he was a poor QB) passed every test of validity I could think of (construct, face, criterion, concurrent, convergent, and predictive) as such I agree......let him go. However, assesssing a GM is a whole different ball game. It is either simple (winning a superbowl) or complex (measures you and I do not even know exist). I prefer to keep assessing a GM simple. As such, the only good ones are the one's that win a superbowl (sorry Polian). There is no data or evidence to for sure indicate there are 4 better GM's out there better than TD (unless you uncover those that have guided a team to a SB victory). As a result, I return to my question what are you basing the performance on? Once that is answered, there will be no reason to continue throwing the verbal "slings" that have been occuring in this thread. Debate is good if there is a purpose. If not, it is counterproductive. 265774[/snapback] IM, just to give you a more accurate picture of what I said, the question was more along the lines of who was more productive, or who did a better job. I was not stating that the 4 men I mentioned are "better" than TD. Each operate under different owner, and have different wallets from which to work. Also, they all started from a different ground zero if you will. Certainly you see the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Whatever, Mick. I mentioned the word moron, because to tell you the truth there are plenty of people who ARE morons. I know it sounds elitist, but when you read 100 posts saying "we should sign XXX" or "we shoulda done xxx" it drives me nuts. What kind of MORON thinks that decisions are made in a vacum? I'll stand by my moron statement not because someone disagrees with me - that's where you are completely wrong - but because if someone is incapable of supporting an argument with logic, they ARE a moron. 265602[/snapback] You might not accept the team's record over the last 4 years as dispositive on the issue of whether TD has not done all that well so far but to consider it to be lacking in logic enough to warrant a rude slam like "moron" is over the line. It is a reasonable position and frankly, it is the main standard all NFL GMs are measured by. Lose enough often enough and you lose your job. You asked for details, I gave some without turning the post into a marathon, eye baking mess. I don't think personal insults are ever justified on the board unless in response to a personal attack against yourself or, on some occasions, others. I don't dispute that TD has made some good moves however, he has made plenty of mistakes and the team's performance on the field is not entirely unrelated to his mistakes. Five years is pretty long for any GM to serve without getting into the post season. This could very well be a make or break year for him. I don't claim that my position is the only one or that there is no way on earth I could possibly be wrong here. I simply think he was brought here to build a winner so it is high time they started winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 You might not accept the team's record over the last 4 years as dispositive on the issue of whether TD has not done all that well so far but to consider it to be lacking in logic enough to warrant a rude slam like "moron" is over the line. It is a reasonable position and frankly, it is the main standard all NFL GMs are measured by. Lose enough often enough and you lose your job. You asked for details, I gave some without turning the post into a marathon, eye baking mess. I don't think personal insults are ever justified on the board unless in response to a personal attack against yourself or, on some occasions, others. I don't dispute that TD has made some good moves however, he has made plenty of mistakes and the team's performance on the field is not entirely unrelated to his mistakes. Five years is pretty long for any GM to serve without getting into the post season. This could very well be a make or break year for him. I don't claim that my position is the only one or that there is no way on earth I could possibly be wrong here. I simply think he was brought here to build a winner so it is high time they started winning. 265939[/snapback] Now if you could only level the same scathing eye at those you identify with politically - whose record when compared to Donahoe's look positively "Bulloughian." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 ...I just have to get it off of my chest. Bear with me, please: 1. Hiring Gregg Williams. 2. 2002 draft, day 1. 3. Not outright releasing Drew Bledsoe after the 2003 season. 4. Not making the playoffs in 2003 or 2004. 5. Not respecting the kicker position in football. 6. Overpaying for guys at certain positions - Troy Vincent at FS, Teague at C, MW at RT, Villarial at RG, Prioleau and Wire at backup SS, etc... 7. Building a team with the stars focused at the LB and offensive "skill" positions rather than upfront on the OL and DL. 8. Already being at the salary cap limit for 2005, only 2 years following the period where we were unofficially out of "salary cap jail." To be fair, there is a lot of good that TD has brought to the Bills. I'm not going to bother with that whole list - since this is meant to be a TD-bashing thread - but most notably I'm happy with his past 2 drafts and with his outstanding job in marketing the Bills in such an economically depressed area. But back to the negatives, I guess I'm just not at all happy with the way this offseason is going - no, not because we didn't resign JJ and PW (I fully understand and agree with those decisions) - but because we don't have any money to address the OL like I thought it was going to finally be in 2005 after 10+ years of subpar Bills play at this position... As of now, this is (probably) our starting front 5: LT: Teague LG: Gandy C: Tucker RG: Villarial RT: Williams WTF??? The whole left side is atrocious, from Teague on over to Tucker. Certainly not adequate for a team wanting to play "smash-mouth" football and to block for a rookie QB. Unless there is somehow more free agent improvement along the front lines of our offense, you can look to a lot more league-leading zero-to-negative yard carries for Willis in 2005. I can already see the replies - if any - that may follow: 1. Kelso, you're an idiot. 2. Kelso, you think you're smarter than TD and McNally? 3. Kelso, why is your helmet so !@#$ing huge? 4. Kelso, have some patience. The offseason is still young. But before sending such replies, ask yourself this: If you're so sure that TD knows what's best for our team, then why haven't we made the playoffs since he got here? And why did other teams like the Eagles, Vikings, Chargers, and Jets make the playoffs in 2004 with a fraction of our payroll? So isn't it possible that TD is not making the best decisions for our Bills, with respect to the other 31 GM's in the league that could have been doing a better job in the past 4 years for Mr. Wilson? Just some thoughts from an idiot fan, -KH 263679[/snapback] Forget all of that. How many post season berths did the Bills get under TD? The same amount as a dead man you say? Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 You might not accept the team's record over the last 4 years as dispositive on the issue of whether TD has not done all that well so far but to consider it to be lacking in logic enough to warrant a rude slam like "moron" is over the line. It is a reasonable position and frankly, it is the main standard all NFL GMs are measured by. Lose enough often enough and you lose your job. You asked for details, I gave some without turning the post into a marathon, eye baking mess. I don't think personal insults are ever justified on the board unless in response to a personal attack against yourself or, on some occasions, others. I don't dispute that TD has made some good moves however, he has made plenty of mistakes and the team's performance on the field is not entirely unrelated to his mistakes. Five years is pretty long for any GM to serve without getting into the post season. This could very well be a make or break year for him. I don't claim that my position is the only one or that there is no way on earth I could possibly be wrong here. I simply think he was brought here to build a winner so it is high time they started winning. 265939[/snapback] Mickey, I see your points, but do you give TD any slack for playing for a relatively "poor" owner, and starting with a complete mess, which included no defense, no, cap room, no qb and an OL that was neglected for 6-8 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMark Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 IM, just to give you a more accurate picture of what I said, the question was more along the lines of who was more productive, or who did a better job. I was not stating that the 4 men I mentioned are "better" than TD. Each operate under different owner, and have different wallets from which to work. Also, they all started from a different ground zero if you will. Certainly you see the difference. 265797[/snapback] Absolutely. Figuring this in, I agree. I was targeting my diatribe to those who did not offer the context you share. Thanks for the qualification Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sound_n_Fury Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Sound n' Fury: But as for Vincent and Miller, TD could easily fit both under a $5 million cap if he wanted - especially factoring in the savings from a Prioleau cut and a Henry trade. I don't expect Miller to command more than $3 million base salary, and TD could probably fit him in for less...maybe $2.25 million tops for the 2005 payroll. 264612[/snapback] Well, Miller's off the market and his cap number for '05 looks like $2.2 million, so your prediction was right on the money. Maybe you should give TD a call about some of the other guys on your other FA wish list! http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor..._len&id=2007278 "Miller, 32, will sign a five-year contract worth $22.5 million. The deal includes a signing bonus of $6 million and base salaries of $1 million (2005), $1 million (2006), $3 million (2007), $4 million (2008) and $4 million (2009). There is a $2 million roster bonus that is due next March and roster bonuses of $500,000 for each of the final three years. The veteran blocker can earn a total of about $500,000 more in workout bonuses." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 So if you want to say that some people have no grasp of "reality" then I can agree with you... but to judge their level of intelligence on a football message board is kind of a stretch. 265631[/snapback] Does that mean if someone here appears to be a football genius, they could very well be a moron in their own backyard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 If you're asking whether football knowledge implies real-world knowledge... the answer is no. Does that mean if someone here appears to be a football genius, they could very well be a moron in their own backyard? 266010[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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