JohnC Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 And here is one of the eternal issues with the Bills drought.... fuzzy accountability and too many people having a say. What I have heard of the 2013 Draft is that it was Buddy Nix's draft. Whaley was on a special project that whole draft season - Find the Quarterback. EJ is on Doug (thought Buddy orchestrated the trade up) Woods, Kiko, Glass Goodwin etc are on Buddy. This draft I think is entirely on McDermott in terms of who was picked.... but Whaley has some responsibility for the evaluations. I probably count here. I think Doug was a reasonable GM who didn't find his Quarterback (major black mark) and was saddled with two coaches who were not his choices. The Bills should have hired Hue Jackson in 2015 who was Doug's #1 candidate and then held him equally accountable for the results. Rex was a terrible, terrible, terrible hire that was predictable the day he got the job and he wasted in 2015 the best Bills roster in almost two decades. I'm not a Whaley basher. Without a doubt he was hampered by the hiring of coaches that he didn't want. That's on the owner. But even with the major handicap of not hiring his own HC his overall drafting was less than average. To add insult to injury his draft maneuvers to jettison picks were in the end not only self-indulgent but self-defeating. A lot of action with little return. The focal point for any GM is to find a franchise qb within a reasonable period of time that will allow you to reasonably compete. It doesn't matter whether it is done through the draft, trade or free agency . It is imperative that it gets done! Whaley's passivity and obliviousness to such a basic issue got to the point of irrationality. I have no problem with what McDermott/Beane are doing. While Whaley casually gave away picks this new outfit is accumulating picks. While Whaley searched the market for scrubs to be the qb I'm hoping that this new regime will he use a high pick, multiple picks need be, to acquire a top shelf qb prospect. While Whaley was a good pro scout as a college scout he was very pedestrian. His notion of roster building lacked coherence and over arching thought. He overestimated the talent on his roster and took a patchwork approach to adding players. The bottom line is not so much that he failed but that he didn't succeed. His record is his record. Simply not good enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmur66 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Without a premier QB the Bills have just been rearranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic for the last 20 years. This staff just saved what they wanted and promptly scuttled the ship. That ship is now forming a reef on the bottom of the ocean. Its a new day and a new ship is under construction. That's the way I look at it anyway. It just sucks because it will take time and nothing is guaranteed. If it was easy everybody could be a Bills fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 While Whaley was a good pro scout as a college scout he was very pedestrian. His notion of roster building lacked coherence and over arching thought. He overestimated the talent on his roster and took a patchwork approach to adding players. The bottom line is not so much that he failed but that he didn't succeed. His record is his record. Simply not good enough I actually largely agree with this. He did lack a coherent thread to his tea building. And he didn't fail in the way some of his predecessors did. He did improve the team to being a .500 ball club in the three seasons that followed full offseasons under his control. But that still isn't good enough and I agree with that too. I didn't disagree with the decision to move on either.... but I do think he was a decent talent accumulator he just didn't have that strategic long term view that he needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bills Fan Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 I actually largely agree with this. He did lack a coherent thread to his tea building. And he didn't fail in the way some of his predecessors did. He did improve the team to being a .500 ball club in the three seasons that followed full offseasons under his control. But that still isn't good enough and I agree with that too. I didn't disagree with the decision to move on either.... but I do think he was a decent talent accumulator he just didn't have that strategic long term view that he needed. The move set this team back was by Pegula love for Rex Ryan. Whaley should of chosen the coach that is what set this team back lots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 The move set this team back was by Pegula love for Rex Ryan. Whaley should of chosen the coach that is what set this team back lots. Agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 I actually largely agree with this. He did lack a coherent thread to his tea building. And he didn't fail in the way some of his predecessors did. He did improve the team to being a .500 ball club in the three seasons that followed full offseasons under his control. But that still isn't good enough and I agree with that too. I didn't disagree with the decision to move on either.... but I do think he was a decent talent accumulator he just didn't have that strategic long term view that he needed. I don't know if we really knew his long term vision. When flipping schemes constantly, how does he actuallybuild to a long term vision? I agree though- if he didn't get handed full control of the coaching search (again) he had to go. If nothing else he didn't have the ability to actually influence his supervisors to allow him to do his job. An important and rarely discussed talent in any role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmur66 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Doug Whaley was a Junior GM and was never fully given the reigns for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) I don't know if we really knew his long term vision. When flipping schemes constantly, how does he actuallybuild to a long term vision? I agree though- if he didn't get handed full control of the coaching search (again) he had to go. If nothing else he didn't have the ability to actually influence his supervisors to allow him to do his job. An important and rarely discussed talent in any role. You make a very incisive point. He didn't present the new owners with a plan as to how he envisioned this team should be built. Maybe the reason he didn't is that the didn't have a coherent philosophy to guide him and explain to his bosses what he was doing and trying to do. Meandering and making individual decisions isn't a strategic plan. I believe that what enthralled the Pegulas the most when they interviewed McDermott for the HCing job is that he was ready with his thick notebook to draw from explaining not only what his vision was for the HC job also how an organization should be run. While Whaley had a day by day approach to his job the wrestling coach had an overarching theme to running a successful operation. Or another way of framing this issue is that it comes down to salesmanship. In the end the stark comparison between Whaley and McDermott resulted in the owners deciding to dispatch the GM.. A basic reality in the work world is that bosses don't fire themselves for their mistakes but they do fire subordinates for their mistakes. Edited September 4, 2017 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 You make a very incisive point. He didn't present the new owners with a plan as to how he envisioned this team should be built. Maybe the reason he didn't is that the didn't have a coherent philosophy to guide him and explain to his bosses what he was doing and trying to do. Meandering and making individual decisions isn't a strategic plan. I believe that what enthralled the Pegulas the most when they interviewed McDermott for the HCing job is that he was ready with his thick notebook to draw from explaining not only what his vision was for the HC job also how an organization should be run. While Whaley had a day by day approach to his job the wrestling coach had an overarching theme to running a successful operation. Or another way of framing this issue is that it comes down to salesmanship. In the end the stark comparison between Whaley and McDermott resulted in the owners deciding to dispatch the GM.. A basic reality in the work world is that bosses don't fire themselves for their mistakes but they do fire subordinates for their mistakes. It's possible I'm projecting but I think that we saw glimpses of a plan/philosophy that was similar to Pittsburgh. Big athletic prototype qb with a chunk passing game. Stout front seven. Man corners outside. Willing to take some risks on specimens to create a talent surplus inside the balance of the cap. I know none of that is hugely telling but... broad strokes I think I saw his framework of what he likes in the 53. Not sure about his vision organizationally though. And don't doubt that side by side he was less impressive of a communicator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 It's possible I'm projecting but I think that we saw glimpses of a plan/philosophy that was similar to Pittsburgh. Big athletic prototype qb with a chunk passing game. Stout front seven. Man corners outside. Willing to take some risks on specimens to create a talent surplus inside the balance of the cap. I know none of that is hugely telling but... broad strokes I think I saw his framework of what he likes in the 53. Not sure about his vision organizationally though. And don't doubt that side by side he was less impressive of a communicator No vision and philosophy works without a qb. Even if EJ fit the mold as you suggest it should have been evident very soon that he needed to seek another qb option, and do it with greater urgency. In my mind that is his biggest failing. This lack of urgency to address such a fundamental issue made no sense to me. I'm not saying that it is an easy endeavor because certainly it is not. But his apparent lackadaisical attitude toward that crucial issue was literally a job killer for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 No vision and philosophy works without a qb. Even if EJ fit the mold as you suggest it should have been evident very soon that he needed to seek another qb option, and do it with greater urgency. In my mind that is his biggest failing. And in his too. The only real chance he missed on was Carr and whilst in retrospect he will obviously regret that he wasn't ready to pull the plug on EJ after 10 injury affected games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuklz2594 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 the new regime is being cutthroat. this is a business. i am surprised dareus still has a job...imo.. it is because of his bloated contract. it will be at least 3 years before we are able to really be respectable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 I don't even get how Tyrod is still here. These guys clearly want nothing to do anyone that was here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Kiko, Darby, and Watkins were all traded for starters. That is three more starters that Whaley's draft produced. What is the rate for other GM's? Someone posted on here yesterday that the next two drafts would yield 10-11 starters? A great draft would produce 3 starters and a few capable back-ups. If Watkins had stayed healthy and Whaley was allowed to pick Hue Jackson over Rex he would still be the GM. He wasn't great but he acquired enough talent to win. He bombed on EJ and made it worse by doubling down on him succeeding instead taking another shot at drafting a capable QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 No vision and philosophy works without a qb. Even if EJ fit the mold as you suggest it should have been evident very soon that he needed to seek another qb option, and do it with greater urgency. In my mind that is his biggest failing. This lack of urgency to address such a fundamental issue made no sense to me. I'm not saying that it is an easy endeavor because certainly it is not. But his apparent lackadaisical attitude toward that crucial issue was literally a job killer for him. Not sure who the option was but don't disagree. It's also one of those moves that gets muddied by coaching buy in too though. Lots of voices to unify, and as mentioned that's where he likely gets his lowest marks from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yav Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Does it even matter? People have been complaining for years about the drafting, coaching and GM. Now things are being done and a single direction is being followed and people are still complaining. There's nothing anyone can do, so why not give them a chance and let's see how this all plays out. It's possible they know what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 the new regime is being cutthroat. this is a business. i am surprised dareus still has a job...imo.. it is because of his bloated contract. it will be at least 3 years before we are able to really be respectable. Dareus is on the team because he is the best player on defense and the second or third best player on the team if not the best. I don't even get how Tyrod is still here. These guys clearly want nothing to do anyone that was here Because if you let TT go then you lose the locker room. McBean do not have the credibility to do that. They haven't proven anything in this league. Without TT, they start the season 1-7 and that trust the process **** gets real old really quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 And in his too. The only real chance he missed on was Carr and whilst in retrospect he will obviously regret that he wasn't ready to pull the plug on EJ after 10 injury affected games. Last year Whaley could have selected Dak Prescott with I believe our 4th round pick . But instead it was dealt to move up for Ragland. I'm well aware that Prescott wouldn't have had the same success in Buffalo as he did with a more complete team in Dallas. But those short-sighted moves hurt us. Whether Prescott would have played or not isn't the issue. He would have been on the roster as a good qb prospect. Without a doubt Prescott was a much more polished prospect than Cardale. Teams that don't have a franchise qb have to address the qb issue with greater focus and aggressiveness than teams that already have a franchise qb. You brought up a lost opportunity with Carr. He could have been selected with a trade down that would have also added picks. This passivity on the qb issue has shackled this organization. And it is being done by itself! The Bills have not had a franchise qb for almost a quarter century, since the retirement of Jim Kelly. That's an utter disgrace and embarrassment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuklz2594 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Dareus is on the team because he is the best player on defense and the second or third best player on the team if not the best. Because if you let TT go then you lose the locker room. McBean do not have the credibility to do that. They haven't proven anything in this league. Without TT, they start the season 1-7 and that trust the process **** gets real old really quick. that maybe true, yet suspensions and being hurt/out of shape makes him a detriment to the team if rex could have worked with schwartz...perhaps the team would have been a contender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuklz2594 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 ej manuel and sammy watkins were whaley's downfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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