QB comparative data for Tyrod from Cian Fahey to discuss

[Crusher]

 

RF, yes, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

At absolutely no point does Fahey himself rank QBs himself. There are more numbers in here. I'm not going to do a disservice to Fahey, who (despite Crusher's pathetic sentiments otherwise) puts a lot of work into charting all of these QBs and is widely respected, by posting every single number he came up with.

 

I agree, some of Taylor's general success can be attributed to lower volume. Discussing how much of an impact volume had is reasonable. And even with that discussion, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle:

 

It is NOT that Taylor's numbers will ALWAYS be exactly the same in terms of completion %, YPA, TD/INT %, etc if Taylor were passing the ball 500 times in a season.

 

however

 

It is NOT that Taylor's numbers will AUTOMATICALLY drop precipitously in all those same categories if he were passing it 500 times in a season.

 

You're right, it's in the middle.

 

You've always just assumed I'm not in the middle because of my posts. But I'm much closer to the middle than you think.

 

 

Mental aspects, huh?

 

What makes you say that?

The fact that Taylor couldn't successfully run Roman's offense, and that Lynn had to dumb it down for starters. He doesn't make changes at the line pre snap, and Lynn took even more responsibility away to help him get plays ran quicker. All these things point to a guy who just isn't very good at the x's and O's part of the job. The talent is there, but he's lacking in terms of what he sees and processes.

 

That's just what I've taken from what I've seen and heard. I know people say Tyrod is smart, and I won't challenge that. What I will challenge is how smart is he in football terms related to being a QB? I haven't seen much of anything that shows me smarts and a high IQ for the position.

[Foxx]

 

I've seen you say this a number of times now and I really wonder how true it is.

 

I actually think those plays are exactly the types of plays Taylor thrives off of. My issue has been that those aren't very often the plays the Bills offense would run.

 

Here's an article over at cover1 on this:

http://www.cover1.net/2017/03/tyrod-taylors-2016-passing-campaign-misinterpreted-misused/

 

There are stats posted in the article for how successful Taylor was in certain types of plays. And it indicates the WCO might be just what the doctor ordered for Taylor.

hey trans, thanks for the article.

 

while i enjoyed reading it, i am a bit flummoxed as to how they arrived at the conclusions they did. looking at the chart within the article, Tyrod had 11 attempts from under center with a 3 step drop and 10 attempts from under center with a 5 step drop. it would be my opinion that that is too small of a sample size to project outward for what is most probably going to be an overall body of work this year that includes more snaps from under center than in the shotgun (or at minimum, a greater amount of balance between the two).

 

i also notice that his all hallowed quarterback rating in the 3 step drop from under center is a dismal 69.1 while his qbr in the 5 step drop from under center is a whopping 151.3. if you are to believe what is portrayed, Tyrod is much more proficient in the 5 step drop than the 3 step drop. while i don't believe that to be true, the truth probably lies somewhere in between those two numbers.

 

this leads me back to the eye test and that college scouting report that everyone in the pro Tyrod camp wants to disregard. every single thing in that report is still as true today, six years later, as it was when Tyrod came out of college. with what my eyes tell me and what the scouting report holds true to today, are we to believe that Tyrod is magically going to transform into this franchise quarterback who is going to shed all those deficiencies he currently holds to successfully run a WCO with slants and timing patterns? i just have a very hard time believing he will when everything he has shown to date says that will be hard to achieve.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Foxx

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Thank you for looking that up....I seemed to remember the work cover did on this but was too lazy to pull it up

 

We have to differentiate from what TT CANT do with what the Bills wanted to run on offense the last 2 years

 

Still.....I would like a better explanation on why TT threw to so many stationary targets.....it takes away from pass catcher's ability to get RAC

...hate to use it, but as Keyshawn said, "just get me the damn ball".....and I have yet to be convinced that TT can scan/process the entire field to do so in time allowed without receivers (WR & TE) giving up routes knowing he'll never see them.....4 year understudy and 2 years starting is a reasonable window to GET the speed/complexity of the game at this level.....if not, what is the "fair time frame window"?...

Edited May 10, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Shaw66]

 

I've seen you say this a number of times now and I really wonder how true it is.

 

I actually think those plays are exactly the types of plays Taylor thrives off of. My issue has been that those aren't very often the plays the Bills offense would run.

 

Here's an article over at cover1 on this:

http://www.cover1.net/2017/03/tyrod-taylors-2016-passing-campaign-misinterpreted-misused/

 

There are stats posted in the article for how successful Taylor was in certain types of plays. And it indicates the WCO might be just what the doctor ordered for Taylor.

I'd never seen that article. Thanks for posting it.

 

It's more amateur analysis, but in this case there's very little subjectivity in the data. Under center or not, count the steps in the drop. Add up attempts, completions and yards. Not too hard.

 

Taylor had so few under center, there may not be enough data to prove anything. But from what there is, it seems like under center isn't a problem for Taylor.

 

I'm not sure the conclusion is fair that the coaches did Taylor a disservice by not letting play under center more. Taylor's the QB and he has to play the offense he's given. He needed to throw better out of the shotgun.

 

One thing he says is something I've said for a year. Taylor looks much better when he drops deep enough to keep the rush in front of him. Passing out of the pocket doesn't work as well for him. With the rush in front of him, he sees the field better and he also scrambles better.

[transplantbillsfan]

hey trans, thanks for the article.

 

while i enjoyed reading it, i am a bit flummoxed as to how they arrived at the conclusions they did. looking at the chart within the article, Tyrod had 11 attempts from under center with a 3 step drop and 10 attempts from under center with a 5 step drop. it would be my opinion that that is too small of a sample size to project outward for what is most probably going to be an overall body of work this year that includes more snaps from under center than in the shotgun (or at minimum, a greater amount of balance between the two).

 

i also notice that his all hallowed quarterback rating in the 3 step drop from under center is a dismal 69.1 while his qbr in the 5 step drop from under center is a whopping 151.3. if you are to believe what is portrayed, Tyrod is much more proficient in the 5 step drop than the 3 step drop. while i don't believe that to be true, the truth probably lies somewhere in between those two numbers.

 

this leads me back to the eye test and that college scouting report that everyone in the pro Tyrod camp wants to disregard. every single thing in that report is still as true today, six years later, as it was when Tyrod came out of college. with what my eyes tell me and what the scouting report holds true to today, are we to believe that Tyrod is magically going to transform into this franchise quarterback who is going to shed all those deficiencies he currently holds to successfully run a WCO with slants and timing patterns? i just have a very hard time believing he will when everything he has shown to date says that will be hard to achieve.

 

fair enough.

[John from Riverside]

The fact that Taylor couldn't successfully run Roman's offense, and that Lynn had to dumb it down for starters. He doesn't make changes at the line pre snap, and Lynn took even more responsibility away to help him get plays ran quicker. All these things point to a guy who just isn't very good at the x's and O's part of the job. The talent is there, but he's lacking in terms of what he sees and processes.

 

That's just what I've taken from what I've seen and heard. I know people say Tyrod is smart, and I won't challenge that. What I will challenge is how smart is he in football terms related to being a QB? I haven't seen much of anything that shows me smarts and a high IQ for the position.

Seemed to run Roman's offense just fine in 2015.....so that nixes that. you seem to make a lot of definative statements about things you absolutely cannot prove.

 

Makes for good entertainment

[Crusher]

Seemed to run Roman's offense just fine in 2015.....so that nixes that. you seem to make a lot of definative statements about things you absolutely cannot prove.

 

Makes for good entertainment

They put more on his plate on 2016, and he couldn't handle it. Anthony Lynn confirms this.

[JM2009]

They put more on his plate on 2016, and he couldn't handle it. Anthony Lynn confirms this.

Let's see a link. And the WR corp was a bottom five without Watkins.

[John from Riverside]

They put more on his plate on 2016, and he couldn't handle it. Anthony Lynn confirms this.

They put more on the TEAMS plate in 2016....not just the qb

[transplantbillsfan]

They put more on his plate on 2016, and he couldn't handle it. Anthony Lynn confirms this.

https://www.google.com/amp/profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/09/22/lesean-mccoy-bills-offense-simplified-under-anthony-lynn/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/billswire.usatoday.com/2016/09/22/buffalo-bills-anthony-lynn-tyrod-taylor/amp/

 

I think you're seriously misrepresenting what actually happened.

 

This was less about Taylor not having the mental capacity to grasp an NFL offense than about Roman putting too many plays in every week and issues with communication.

 

If you read those, the Bills were going into the first couple games with 60-80 plays in the game plan. Lynn cut that to 40-50 and streamlined communication with a wristband for Taylor.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8192b29f/article/producing-a-game-plan-takes-into-account-months-of-work%3FnetworkId%3D4595%26site%3D.news%26zone%3Dstory%26zoneUrl%3Durl%253Dstory%26zoneKeys%3Ds1%253Dstory%26env%3D%26pageKeyValues%3Dteam%253Dmin%253Bconf%253Dnfc%253Bdvsn%253Dncn%253Bplyr%253Dbrett_favre%253Bplyr%253Dwilliam_harvin%26sr%3Damp

You'll see here that 40-50 plays is about the typical playbook of NFL teams on a weekly basis. Actually 35-40 is more the number so it's above average.

 

This wasn't really about dumbing things down for Taylor, it was about simplifying game plans for an entire offense and improving communication.

Edited May 11, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

https://www.google.com/amp/profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/09/22/lesean-mccoy-bills-offense-simplified-under-anthony-lynn/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/billswire.usatoday.com/2016/09/22/buffalo-bills-anthony-lynn-tyrod-taylor/amp/

 

I think you're seriously misrepresenting what actually happened.

 

This was less about Taylor not having the mental capacity to grasp an NFL offense than about Roman putting too many plays in every week and issues with communication.

 

If you read those, the Bills were going into the first couple games with 60-80 plays in the game plan. Lynn cut that to 40-50 and streamlined communication with a wristband for Taylor.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8192b29f/article/producing-a-game-plan-takes-into-account-months-of-work%3FnetworkId%3D4595%26site%3D.news%26zone%3Dstory%26zoneUrl%3Durl%253Dstory%26zoneKeys%3Ds1%253Dstory%26env%3D%26pageKeyValues%3Dteam%253Dmin%253Bconf%253Dnfc%253Bdvsn%253Dncn%253Bplyr%253Dbrett_favre%253Bplyr%253Dwilliam_harvin%26sr%3Damp

You'll see here that 40-50 plays is about the typical playbook of NFL teams on a weekly basis. Actually 35-40 is more the number so it's above average.

 

This wasn't really about dumbing things down for Taylor, it was about simplifying game plans for an entire offense and improving communication.

Funny that. When I used that excuse I got scoffed at by some.

 

Simplification imo only in that the playbook week to week had a more compact series of plays with fewer "gimmick plays" to have to worry about overthinking which play to call into the huddle.

Even with a "simplified" playbook the Bills still managed to abandon the passing game when the passing game was doing great!

 

Blame either the QB for his inability to have an effective passing came or the coach that calls the plays. The end result remains the same.

Edited May 11, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[Big Gun]

Let's see a link. And the WR corp was a bottom five without Watkins.

Yet those WR were still open alot. The All-22 confirms this.

Edited May 11, 2017 by old school

[Thurman#1]

Funny that. When I used that excuse I got scoffed at by some.

 

Simplification imo only in that the playbook week to week had a more compact series of plays with fewer "gimmick plays" to have to worry about overthinking which play to call into the huddle.

Even with a "simplified" playbook the Bills still managed to abandon the passing game when the passing game was doing great!

 

Blame either the QB for his inability to have an effective passing came or the coach that calls the plays. The end result remains the same.

 

 

 

"Trimming down the playbook" and "simplifying the offense," are what he said. The playbook isn't what you put together each week. It's the book that shows all the plays in the offense. I know it's an outdated word now that everyone uses computers, but that's what people are talking about when they say "playbook," the stuff you study in training camp.

 

I think you're referring to the game plan. And here's an article where Carson Palmer talks about memorizing a weekly game plan of 171 plays. And he calls it "a game plan," not a playbook.

 

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/11/17/nfl-carson-palmer-arizona-cardinals-inside-game-plan

 

 

 

Lynn said he simplified the playbook. He also said, and this was really depressing for me to read at the time, that he simplified the reads. That's different from what you're implying here.

 

 

 

Nobody has said Tyrod doesn't have the mental capacity to handle the offense. He's a smart guy, and there's no indication at all that I've seen that he had trouble understanding the plays. Just that he didn't seem to be able to get through his options quick enough to read enough of the field. Which is one of the single main skills that generally separates the top ten or so guys in the world from everyone else playing the position.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Thurman#1

[transplantbillsfan]

 

 

 

"Trimming down the playbook" and "simplifying the offense," are what he said. The playbook isn't what you put together each week. It's the book that shows all the plays in the offense. I know it's an outdated word now that everyone uses computers, but that's what people are talking about when they say "playbook," the stuff you study in training camp.

 

I think you're referring to the game plan. And here's an article where Carson Palmer talks about memorizing a weekly game plan of 171 plays. And he calls it "a game plan," not a playbook.

 

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/11/17/nfl-carson-palmer-arizona-cardinals-inside-game-plan

 

 

 

Lynn said he simplified the playbook. He also said, and this was really depressing for me to read at the time, that he simplified the reads. That's different from what you're implying here.

 

 

 

Nobody has said Tyrod doesn't have the mental capacity to handle the offense. He's a smart guy, and there's no indication at all that I've seen that he had trouble understanding the plays. Just that he didn't seem to be able to get through his options quick enough to read enough of the field. Which is one of the single main skills that generally separates the top ten or so guys in the world from everyone else playing the position.

Crusher said exactly that, actually...

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

Let's see a link. And the WR corp was a bottom five without Watkins.

 

 

 

Yet those WR were still open alot. The All-22 confirms this.

Thsi argument is not worth your time. Well not until TT loses 3 games in a row then jm2009 will give up on him just like he did in 2016. (see BBMB archives)

 

 

 

"Trimming down the playbook" and "simplifying the offense," are what he said. The playbook isn't what you put together each week. It's the book that shows all the plays in the offense. I know it's an outdated word now that everyone uses computers, but that's what people are talking about when they say "playbook," the stuff you study in training camp.

 

I think you're referring to the game plan. And here's an article where Carson Palmer talks about memorizing a weekly game plan of 171 plays. And he calls it "a game plan," not a playbook.

 

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/11/17/nfl-carson-palmer-arizona-cardinals-inside-game-plan

 

 

Lynn said he simplified the playbook. He also said, and this was really depressing for me to read at the time, that he simplified the reads. That's different from what you're implying here.

 

Nobody has said Tyrod doesn't have the mental capacity to handle the offense. He's a smart guy, and there's no indication at all that I've seen that he had trouble understanding the plays. Just that he didn't seem to be able to get through his options quick enough to read enough of the field. Which is one of the single main skills that generally separates the top ten or so guys in the world from everyone else playing the position.

tomato tomato. I meant game plan. Romans game plan had too many plays to choose from which could have been why there were a lot more Delay of Game penalties in '15 that '16.

 

Whats depressing for me is that they gave up on the pass to rely on the run when they didn't need to. You have to be able to win via the run or via the pass as each game dictates.

Edited May 11, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[Scott7975]

Yet those WR were still open alot. The All-22 confirms this.

Are they open in the right spot?

I don't think people understand how Roman called an offense. He sent 3 plays in at a time and Taylor would pick one. So maybe they talked about trimming that back. People hear something and immediately think oh he's stupid because it fits the narrative they want.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Scott7975

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Yet those WR were still open alot. The All-22 confirms this.

in a follow up

Here's the thing people may not be considering when they play the blame game wrt TT's poorer output because he didn't have Sammy.

 

Guess what. 2017 may be Sammy's last season in Buffalo. If TT needs Sammy to win they he's got no future post Sammy.

 

 

Are they open in the right spot?

I don't think people understand how Roman called an offense. He sent 3 plays in at a time and Taylor would pick one. So maybe they talked about trimming that back. People hear something and immediately think oh he's stupid because it fits the narrative they want.

 

How many seconds were on the play clock when he sent those 3 plays in?

 

Choice 1 pass, choice 2 run, choice 3 wing it.

Edited May 11, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[John from Riverside]

in a follow up

Here's the thing people may not be considering when they play the blame game wrt TT's poorer output because he didn't have Sammy.

 

Guess what. 2017 may be Sammy's last season in Buffalo. If TT needs Sammy to win they he's got no future post Sammy.

 

 

 

How many seconds were on the play clock when he sent those 3 plays in?

 

Choice 1 pass, choice 2 run, choice 3 wing it.

I am willing to bet 2017 will not be the last season for Sammy....no way do they give up 2 first round picks on a player and just let him walk

[BuffaloHokie13]

I am willing to bet 2017 will not be the last season for Sammy....no way do they give up 2 first round picks on a player and just let him walk

the people who gave that up aren't here any more.

[John from Riverside]

the people who gave that up aren't here any more.

Doesnt matter....that is still a lot of real estate to give up

 

I mean its not the ONLY reason....when he is healthy he is one of the best WR's in the league

 

You dont get better by intentionally giving up good players....i think they just want to make sure he is healthy