GunnerBill Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The list of QB's without a flaw is miniscule and thinking you are going to find him in a down QB draft year while risking a top 10 offense is simply not analyzing the situation rationally. This team is an improved defense, WR and a kicker away from the playoffs this coming year and we may already have most of the pieces in place on defense and a scheme change would do the trick. Unfortunately it doesnt seem to me that Whaley is in board with my thinking as blowing it up this year probably gets him 2 more years. Pegula's simply are to trusting of people that are manipulating the situation to keep getting a paycheck for as long as possible. See you keep bringing this back to Tyrod. I was on about why USC Quarterbacks fail. This is why I believe the Tyrod fans are cultish. Every argument seems to end up to them as a justification for keeping Tyrod Taylor. I know Ryan Billz is the opposite but it makes for a debate of irrational extremes. A proper analysis of the Bills QB situation, in my mind, leads one to the conclusion that this is finely balanced decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 See you keep bringing this back to Tyrod. I was on about why USC Quarterbacks fail. This is why I believe the Tyrod fans are cultish. Every argument seems to end up to them as a justification for keeping Tyrod Taylor. I know Ryan Billz is the opposite but it makes for a debate of irrational extremes. A proper analysis of the Bills QB situation, in my mind, leads one to the conclusion that this is finely balanced decision. Typical Tyrod haters response to turn every mention of Tyrod into a cult. You asked me how we should proceed at QB and I told you and you spin it this way when I am simply explaining the whys of the direction you asked me to give. think I explained myself well enough to show my stance is to go with Tyrod this season and then move on if it doesnt work out. I certainly explained why I think he will improve and why I think the offense will regress without him. Why do the haters always turn any rational discussion into anything positive said means we are cultish? IS it they can't argue on the basis of our points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Typical Tyrod haters response to turn every mention of Tyrod into a cult. You asked me how we should proceed at QB and I told you and you spin it this way when I am simply explaining the whys of the direction you asked me to give. think I explained myself well enough to show my stance is to go with Tyrod this season and then move on if it doesnt work out. I certainly explained why I think he will improve and why I think the offense will regress without him. Why do the haters always turn any rational discussion into anything positive said means we are cultish? IS it they can't argue on the basis of our points? I am not a Tyrod hater. And I have answered rationally why I don't think we can expect much if any improvement. I have always said the only option that likely makes us better than Tyrod in 2017 is Romo - I just don't think that is the basis on which we should be taking this decision. I'm confused about why you jumped back to Tyrod after the discussion about Darnold. You jumped straight back to "almost no Quarterbacks are without faults... that is why we should keep Tyrod." Which is a logical fallacy if ever I saw one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 Why does any criticism of Tyrod or interest in improving at the QB position make one a "hater"? I will never understand this. He is not at the level of an unquestioned starter in the NFL. It's ok to point out where he's not cutting it. It doesn't make it "hate". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I am not a Tyrod hater. And I have answered rationally why I don't think we can expect much if any improvement. I have always said the only option that likely makes us better than Tyrod in 2017 is Romo - I just don't think that is the basis on which we should be taking this decision. I'm confused about why you jumped back to Tyrod after the discussion about Darnold. You jumped straight back to "almost no Quarterbacks are without faults... that is why we should keep Tyrod." Which is a logical fallacy if ever I saw one. Of course you aren't... But you lump everyone saying one thing positive about Taylor as a cult member. I am curious why you can do that and are outraged when others do the same back. Romo ? Seriously you are projecting that you get the 2014 version of Romo or the current broken down version? Quite a risk no? You talked about FLAWED QB's as if QB's without flaws were not the EXTREME exception. And again you are reading into my posts WHAT YOU WANT TO you appear far to smart to be doing that without it being purposeful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I am not a Tyrod hater. And I have answered rationally why I don't think we can expect much if any improvement. I have always said the only option that likely makes us better than Tyrod in 2017 is Romo - I just don't think that is the basis on which we should be taking this decision. I'm confused about why you jumped back to Tyrod after the discussion about Darnold. You jumped straight back to "almost no Quarterbacks are without faults... that is why we should keep Tyrod." Which is a logical fallacy if ever I saw one. Don't let him off the mat Gunner! Why does any criticism of Tyrod or interest in improving at the QB position make one a "hater"? I will never understand this. He is not at the level of an unquestioned starter in the NFL. It's ok to point out where he's not cutting it. It doesn't make it "hate". C'mon Yolo, you were here for EJ. You know how it goes with QB's. Some folks get star struck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Of course you aren't... But you lump everyone saying one thing positive about Taylor as a cult member. I am curious why you can do that and are outraged when others do the same back. Romo ? Seriously you are projecting that you get the 2014 version of Romo or the current broken down version? Quite a risk no? You talked about FLAWED QB's as if QB's without flaws were not the EXTREME exception. And again you are reading into my posts WHAT YOU WANT TO you appear far to smart to be doing that without it being purposeful. Romo is a risk - sure, but if he is healthy he is an upgrade. I don't think the chances of Darnold succeeding or not in the NFL are related in any way to Tyrod and it was when you seemed to make that link that I said it appeared cultish. I understand people responding in an aggressively defensive manner to Ryan Billz because he does throw the bait out there.... but there is a serious decision for the Bills to make on Tyrod and there are sensible arguments on both sides. I just get horribly frustrated when the debate descends into silly extremes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Romo is a risk - sure, but if he is healthy he is an upgrade. I don't think the chances of Darnold succeeding or not in the NFL are related in any way to Tyrod and it was when you seemed to make that link that I said it appeared cultish. I understand people responding in an aggressively defensive manner to Ryan Billz because he does throw the bait out there.... but there is a serious decision for the Bills to make on Tyrod and there are sensible arguments on both sides. I just get horribly frustrated when the debate descends into silly extremes. Romo is a risk - sure, but if he is healthy he is an upgrade You state this as if it isn't an ENORMUS RISK for the Bills to take on and also state it as if in all likelihood he will return to 2014 form. Kind of cavalier no considering the consequences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Romo is a risk - sure, but if he is healthy he is an upgrade You state this as if it isn't an ENORMUS RISK for the Bills to take on and also state it as if in all likelihood he will return to 2014 form. Kind of cavalier no considering the consequences? The consequences are we suck in 2017 and are in position to take a shot at a Quarterback in the supposedly strong 2018 class. If the Bills traded for Romo and he got hurt they sucked in 2017 and wanted to cut him his dead cap in 2018 is $3.2m (because the guaranteed bonus stays with the Cowboys). Tyrod's dead cap if they want to move on after 2017 is $14m. I actually think Romo is a big short term risk (in terms of playoff chances next season) but a smaller long term risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Get him. Either he backs up TT while Jones gets ready to be a number 2--or he plays while a rookie learns behind him. The Steelers had a McCown type guy and a backup rookie back in 2004. Maddox and Big Ben.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Get him. Either he backs up TT while Jones gets ready to be a number 2--or he plays while a rookie learns behind him. The Steelers had a McCown type guy and a backup rookie back in 2004. Maddox and Big Ben.. Was Maddox the XFL guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The consequences are we suck in 2017 and are in position to take a shot at a Quarterback in the supposedly strong 2018 class. If the Bills traded for Romo and he got hurt they sucked in 2017 and wanted to cut him his dead cap in 2018 is $3.2m (because the guaranteed bonus stays with the Cowboys). Tyrod's dead cap if they want to move on after 2017 is $14m. I actually think Romo is a big short term risk (in terms of playoff chances next season) but a smaller long term risk. How do those numbers work if he comes to the Bills and renegotiates his contract? I think it is Pollyanna to think he comes here under existing terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 How do those numbers work if he comes to the Bills and renegotiates his contract? I think it is Pollyanna to think he comes here under existing terms. Well I don't know that until it happens and I don't think Romo will end up here regardless. I was just making the point (it was actually intended as a pro keeping Tyrod point) that unless it is Romo the likely replacement is not as good in 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 How do those numbers work if he comes to the Bills and renegotiates his contract? I think it is Pollyanna to think he comes here under existing terms. What kind of contract do you think he'll demand? I find it curious that folks who say Romo is poison, hurt often, a huge mistake, etc etc seem to think he's gonna get a crazy contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 What kind of contract do you think he'll demand? I find it curious that folks who say Romo is poison, hurt often, a huge mistake, etc etc seem to think he's gonna get a crazy contract. What makes you think he'd come to Buffalo given other options without Buffalo giving him the best contract? Is it the great weather the second half of the season ? Is it the chance to show everybody he still has it to win the Super Bowl and will come to a team that hasn't made the playoffs for 16 years vs a team like Arizona, Houston or Denver? You find it curious??? I find it curious and somewhat deluded that some can come to the conclusion that A. He reverts to 2014 form after all his injuries B. He comes to a team with the 4th best shot AT BEST of making a run next year without getting crazy Dollars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 What makes you think he'd come to Buffalo given other options without Buffalo giving him the best contract? Is it the great weather the second half of the season ? Is it the chance to show everybody he still has it to win the Super Bowl and will come to a team that hasn't made the playoffs for 16 years vs a team like Arizona, Houston or Denver? You find it curious??? I find it curious and somewhat deluded that some can come to the conclusion that A. He reverts to 2014 form after all his injuries B. He comes to a team with the 4th best shot AT BEST of making a run next year without getting crazy Dollars Best is relative. What do you think he'd cost to come here? Let's hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Get him. Either he backs up TT while Jones gets ready to be a number 2--or he plays while a rookie learns behind him. The Steelers had a McCown type guy and a backup rookie back in 2004. Maddox and Big Ben.. Which is a great situation..... when you've just drafted Big Ben. Anyway, Big Ben had 13 starts and 13 wins in his rookie season, so....Maddox was great at bringing Ben Gatorade. Best is relative. What do you think he'd cost to come here? Let's hear it. 400 quatloos for the newcomer.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 What makes you think he'd come to Buffalo given other options without Buffalo giving him the best contract? Is it the great weather the second half of the season ? Is it the chance to show everybody he still has it to win the Super Bowl and will come to a team that hasn't made the playoffs for 16 years vs a team like Arizona, Houston or Denver? I repeat I don't think Romo comes here.... but Palmer is continuing in 'Zona, and Denver isn't interested. Houston, Chicago and the Jets are the realistic competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I repeat I don't think Romo comes here.... but Palmer is continuing in 'Zona, and Denver isn't interested. Houston, Chicago and the Jets are the realistic competition. Houston makes the most sense for many reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Houston makes the most sense for many reasons. They are the most cap stretched so not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Best is relative. What do you think he'd cost to come here? Let's hear it. I am not in a position to even guess nor have I ever stated I did . You seem to be the guy here with all the answers and probably have a number in mind so what is it? Let's hear it? Being on the chatbox you think we overpaid for a few contracts (And I agree) what do you think the Bills premium will be? So you are saying Bills will not be forced to overpay for Romo here but are on the chat stating they overpaid previously. What makes this different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I am not in a position to even guess nor have I ever stated I did . You seem to be the guy here with all the answers and probably have a number in mind so what is it? Let's hear it? Being on the chatbox you think we overpaid for a few contracts (And I agree) what do you think the Bills premium will be? So you are saying Bills will not be forced to overpay for Romo here but are on the chat stating they overpaid previously. What makes this different? So what was your argument about Romo's numbers even about, if you cannot even hazard a guess at a rough estimate of what he'd cost? If Houston is strapped for cash and other teams stay away for the reasons you suggest, what do you think his cap number would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BmarvB Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 He'd fit in as a experienced #2 behind TT (keep him!) until Cardale is ready to take the spot from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 So what was your argument about Romo's numbers even about, if you cannot even hazard a guess at a rough estimate of what he'd cost? If Houston is strapped for cash and other teams stay away for the reasons you suggest, what do you think his cap number would be? Let me ask you a question. You are on chat stating we pay a premium for players and are on this thread stating we won't pay a premium for Romo? Can you even align your own argument.. What makes Buffalo and it's weather so attractive to an aging injured QB? Again I ask since you know it all what number do you think gets him here and I'll go you one further do you think he comes here? If so what are you willing to risk for someone taking the other side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Let me ask you a question. You are on chat stating we pay a premium for players and are on this thread stating we won't pay a premium for Romo? Can you even align your own argument.. What makes Buffalo and it's weather so attractive to an aging injured QB? Again I ask since you know it all what number do you think gets him here and I'll go you one further do you think he comes here? If so what are you willing to risk for someone taking the other side? What? I can see Romo getting a 2-3 year deal with the first 2 guaranteed at $18-20M per Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 What? I can see Romo getting a 2-3 year deal with the first 2 guaranteed at $18-20M per And you think that risk is ok for a guy who hasn't played but a handful of games in 2 years? You also think that a guy with his history of injuries and playing his whole career in good weather and desire to show the Cowboys they were wrong about him would come to a Cold weather team that hasn't made the playoffs in 16 years whose main problem is their defense? Again I ask what do you rate the chances he comes to Buffalo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) And you think that risk is ok for a guy who hasn't played but a handful of games in 2 years? You also think that a guy with his history of injuries and playing his whole career in good weather and desire to show the Cowboys they were wrong about him would come to a Cold weather team that hasn't made the playoffs in 16 years whose main problem is their defense? Again I ask what do you rate the chances he comes to Buffalo? Yes. Yes. Pretty good. You could probably build in escalators based on games played and such. Edited February 9, 2017 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Yes. Yes. Pretty good. You could probably build in escalators based on games played and such. If you want him to go to Buffalo you can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Yes. Yes. Pretty good. You could probably build in escalators based on games played and such. Romo with McCoy and Gilleslie = ooooooooh weeeeee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Yes. Yes. Pretty good. You could probably build in escalators based on games played and such. You are too funny and with zero self awareness to boot. Give me a percentage not the usual non committal answer. If he does come here though I will certainly be rooting for him to bring this team to the playoffs. Your body of work here is pretty clear me if we don't change QB's you won't be rooting for TT the same way eh Bills fan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 You are too funny and with zero self awareness to boot. Give me a percentage not the usual non committal answer. If he does come here though I will certainly be rooting for him to bring this team to the playoffs. Your body of work here is pretty clear me if we don't change QB's you won't be rooting for TT the same way eh Bills fan? A percentage of what? I root every Bill to be the best ever. Nice pivot, clown car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 A percentage of what? I root every Bill to be the best ever. Nice pivot, clown car. Right you were rooting Tyrod last season... Oh snowflake your game is so transparent. When you don't want to respond to a question , you respond with a question. Again and I really can't make this any clearer. What percentage do you put on Romo becoming a Bill next year ? As if you didn't understand that the last time. Let's see if you can respond without an insult or asking another question to avoid what is asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Right you were rooting Tyrod last season... Oh snowflake your game is so transparent. When you don't want to respond to a question , you respond with a question. Again and I really can't make this any clearer. What percentage do you put on Romo becoming a Bill next year ? As if you didn't understand that the last time. Let's see if you can respond without an insult or asking another question to avoid what is asked. It depends on what they offer. If they low ball him, their chances are zero. If they pay him more than everyone else, they're probably close to 90%. This simple concept continues to elude you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) It depends on what they offer. If they low ball him, their chances are zero. If they pay him more than everyone else, they're probably close to 90%. This simple concept continues to elude you. What part of my post stating when I said he comes to the team if they offer crazy dollars didn't you understand? I personally think it has to be much more for him to come to Buffalo than a team with an in place strong defense only missing a QB. But Whaley is certainly capable of blowing up the next decade in a desperate grasp to save his job for the next 2-3 years. Do I think it is a good idea to get a guy that has shown he is at the point where he is breaking down, absolutely not. I can't think of a guy once he starts the cycle of missing big portions of 2 consecutive seasons just gets healthy again. If you can think of such a 36+ year old let me know and PS it isn't Peyton Manning because he played 16 games prior to missing an entire season. Edited February 9, 2017 by jms62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 What part of my post stating when I said he comes to the team if they offer crazy dollars didn't you understand? I personally think it has to be much more for him to come to Buffalo than a team with an in place strong defense only missing a QB. But Whaley is certainly capable of blowing up the next decade in a desperate grasp to save his job for the next 2-3 years. Do I think it is a good idea to get a guy that has shown he is at the point where he is breaking down, absolutely not. I can't think of a guy once he starts the cycle of missing big portions of 2 consecutive seasons just gets healthy again. If you can think of such a 36+ year old let me know and PS it isn't Peyton Manning because he played 16 games prior to missing an entire season. What's your definition of crazy dollars? Houston has Osweiler with a $19M cap hit. You don't think we could pay more than them and still keep it reasonable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpleman Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) Houston makes the most sense for many reasons. I don't why people keep saying things like this. Does it make sense to spend $35 Million plus dollars for TT to play at Houston? TT is a mediocre bridge QB, he is not Tom Brady. If TT's contract wasn't outrageously cap expensive for a mediocre bridge QB, there would be no question about him being the starting QB in Buffalo this year. Romo would be 40+ million,while he is not Brady, he might have a chance of getting them to the SB, but I would not take those odds based on his durability, not that his talent level isn't good enough to do it. All decisions are not made in a vacuum, the cap is the main consideration. $40 plus million better get you as close to a healthy Brady as you can get. Edited February 9, 2017 by simpleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I don't why people keep saying this. Does it make sense to spend $35 Million plus dollars for TT to play at Houston? TT is a mediocre bridge QB, he is not Tom Brady. If TT's contract wasn't outrageously cap expensive for a mediocre bridge QB, there would be no question about him being the starting QB in Buffalo this year. Budy... Thanks for piping in but I'm not saying anything about TT in Houston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 What's your definition of crazy dollars? Houston has Osweiler with a $19M cap hit. You don't think we could pay more than them and still keep it reasonable? Even at your 20 million I define overpaying as guaranteeing the contract for the second year. This is WAY too much to pay for a guy who hasn't played in 2 years. How can you make that guarantee in the desperate hope that he returns to 2014 when everything points to his body having deserted him. IMO there is a better chance of Tyrod returning to 2015 form with a healthy upgraded receiver corp than Romo reverting to 2014 form and starting 16 games. I would bet the under 10 starts on him next year with both hands if it were offered. You have any examples of a 36+ year old player missing better part of 2 seasons reverting to Pro Bowl form? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Even at your 20 million I define overpaying as guaranteeing the contract for the second year. This is WAY too much to pay for a guy who hasn't played in 2 years. How can you make that guarantee in the desperate hope that he returns to 2014 when everything points to his body having deserted him. IMO there is a better chance of Tyrod returning to 2015 form with a healthy upgraded receiver corp than Romo reverting to 2014 form and starting 16 games. I would bet the under 10 starts on him next year with both hands if it were offered. You have any examples of a 36+ year old player missing better part of 2 seasons reverting to Pro Bowl form? Because he's going to want guarantees to even bother playing. And if he's healthy and reverts to form, he's locked up. And if he gets hurt again, he'll probably just retire, and we're out of it in a year anyway. If you sign Romo for 2 years $40M and draft a rookie, you just get to evaluate that rookie earlier. Or Cardale. It's not as though the rookie is getting paid anything serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) Because he's going to want guarantees to even bother playing. And if he's healthy and reverts to form, he's locked up. And if he gets hurt again, he'll probably just retire, and we're out of it in a year anyway. If you sign Romo for 2 years $40M and draft a rookie, you just get to evaluate that rookie earlier. Or Cardale. It's not as though the rookie is getting paid anything serious. He'll want guarantees thus a team giving him 2 years based upon where he is in his career and what he has shown is Grossly overpaying. You have any examples of a 36+ year old player missing better part of 2 seasons reverting to Pro Bowl form? Seems like there are SO MANY IF's in your scenario (Healthy, Returns to Form, Retires if hurt)... Don't see how anyone but a desperate GM makes this move. Look at where we are now. A good defense and kicker and we get to the playoffs. And that good defense may simply be a scheme change. Edited February 9, 2017 by jms62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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