d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Give me a friggin break! Two out of five is a GREAT ratio when retaining young talent. Expecially when it has been shown that Peerless isn't as great as expected. You also forget that he extended Travis, which allowed us to be in a position to trade him this year. You seem to be rewriting history just to fit your argument. 252603[/snapback] well, we'll have to agree to disagree........i think 2 out of 5, is poor, not great......... he extended travis only because travis came begging for more money because he was broke.........really a no-brainer for TD......... is there anything TD has done (or not done) that you disagree with? you seem to do a lot of apologizing for a guy who hasn't been able to get his team in the playoffs for 4 seasons......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 yea, lowball offers........i wonder why they didn't take them? answer me this -- do jennings and williams want more, less, or the same now compared to what they wanted in the summer? 252629[/snapback] You do know what negotiations are, don't you? Ever bought a car? Ever negotiated a salary yourself? Has an employer ever offered you a salary without expecting you to negotiate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Buh-bye Pat. Buh-bye Jonas. I'm sick and tired of these guys trying to break the bank. Their self-perceived values are so out of wack it's not even funny. What ever happened to Mr. Buffalo Bill Pat Williams looking for what was fair to stay with the team? Greed baby. Oh well they're making their own beds, have fun playing for another team guys. I don't even want to hear players bitchin about not signing them either. They don't care about the Bills being in cap hell because they will be long gone by then. If you think the Bills should cave in take a look at the 49ers and think again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 ah, your one step ahead of me.........i was going to save this one until the summer when we have a better idea of available cap dollars, but yes, i have been watching the "josh reed blows" comments for quite some time and biting my tongue for the most part....... i would pop a 3-4M bonus in front of josh on a 5 year deal and see if he bites.......total value of the deal -- 11-12M........ this would increase josh's cap hit by about 1M........ if josh has a breakout season, we now have him locked in long-term at a bargain rate......... 252612[/snapback] If TD used that kind of logic, Erik Flowers would still be on the Bills payroll. PAY FOR PERFORMANCE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 You do know what negotiations are, don't you? Ever bought a car? Ever negotiated a salary yourself? Has an employer ever offered you a salary without expecting you to negotiate? 252638[/snapback] amazing how other teams manage to get their players locked up......... i see you couldn't even answer my question regarding their values...... sorry man, but sometimes the lowball strategy isn't the best route.........sometimes making a player feel wanted, treating them with respect, and giving them fair value will do the trick......... but like i said, keep making excuses......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 well, we'll have to agree to disagree........i think 2 out of 5, is poor, not great......... he extended travis only because travis came begging for more money because he was broke.........really a no-brainer for TD......... is there anything TD has done (or not done) that you disagree with? you seem to do a lot of apologizing for a guy who hasn't been able to get his team in the playoffs for 4 seasons......... 252634[/snapback] Actually, yes. I would have fired Williams after year 2. I would have not let Williams talk me into getting Robinson as a LB. I would have not let Rusty Jones go, or put him in a position where he felt compelled to go. I would made getting a good kicker a higher priority. Other than that, I think he's done a great job. You may see me as an apologist, however you seem to do quite a bit of accusing without much logic behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Give me a friggin break! Two out of five is a GREAT ratio when retaining young talent. Expecially when it has been shown that Peerless isn't as great as expected. You also forget that he extended Travis, which allowed us to be in a position to trade him this year. You seem to be rewriting history just to fit your argument. 252603[/snapback] Think I am missing something here. Moulds getting his deal is not what d-wag is talking about. Moulds was a FA if I remeber correctly, and we paid pretty much market rate to keep him. This last restructure was nothing, just moving the cap hit further down the road on Moulds, he gave up nothing. Second, TD is PAID to be able to spot talent early. Not once they have had a breakout year. Christ, I can do that. To me TDs record so far is Travis, Moorman, and Schobel done early, all excellant deals in my mind. To me looks like he missed on winfield, and thats about it. The question is are there 2yd year guys we should be trying to lock up now at reasonable prices before they become stars. Guys like McGee, Tucker,MW, some of the backup Linebackers. Again, I do not have an answer on these guys, but for crying out loud, TD should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Actually, yes. I would have fired Williams after year 2. I would have not let Williams talk me into getting Robinson as a LB. I would have not let Rusty Jones go, or put him in a position where he felt compelled to go. I would made getting a good kicker a higher priority. Other than that, I think he's done a great job. You may see me as an apologist, however you seem to do quite a bit of accusing without much logic behind it. 252654[/snapback] so you agree with the bledsoe trade? the bledsoe extension? the prioleau extension? the troy vincent addition? the ryan denney pick and trade-up? the mike williams pick? the bryce fisher release? the larry centers release? the decision not to replace peerless' production in '03? there is plenty of logic behind my critique.......you just choose to ignore it (along with 4 years out of the playoffs, which i think is a pretty big issue)........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 sorry man, but sometimes the lowball strategy isn't the best route.........sometimes making a player feel wanted, treating them with respect, and giving them fair value will do the trick......... 252649[/snapback] I see. Kinda like Moulds and Schoebel. Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Think I am missing something here. Moulds getting his deal is not what d-wag is talking about. Moulds was a FA if I remeber correctly, and we paid pretty much market rate to keep him. This last restructure was nothing, just moving the cap hit further down the road on Moulds, he gave up nothing. Second, TD is PAID to be able to spot talent early. Not once they have had a breakout year. Christ, I can do that. To me TDs record so far is Travis, Moorman, and Schobel done early, all excellant deals in my mind. To me looks like he missed on winfield, and thats about it. The question is are there 2yd year guys we should be trying to lock up now at reasonable prices before they become stars. Guys like McGee, Tucker,MW, some of the backup Linebackers. Again, I do not have an answer on these guys, but for crying out loud, TD should 252663[/snapback] that's the point that people on this board seem to miss........they just want to make it all the players fault, or make excuses that it is too risky.........good GM's get young talent signed to reasonable deals early -- period.........if you wait to long on a player, of course they'll walk........if you lowball them, of course they'll walk.......but if you treat them fairly and offer them a respectable deal, 9 out of 10 will jump at it........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 so you agree with the bledsoe trade? the bledsoe extension? the prioleau extension? the troy vincent addition? the ryan denney pick and trade-up? the mike williams pick? the bryce fisher release? the larry centers release? the decision not to replace peerless' production in '03? there is plenty of logic behind my critique.......you just choose to ignore it (along with 4 years out of the playoffs, which i think is a pretty big issue)........ 252669[/snapback] d-wag, those are diffearnt issues in my mind. Your point, if I understand it , is lock up your young soon to be stars, before they are stars. Point where TD has missed on this besides winfield, and possibly JJ. BTW, I agree with most of your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I see. Kinda like Moulds and Schoebel. Right. 252672[/snapback] he gave in to moulds because he had to........he was on the cusp of free agency and he didn't have a choice........no lowball there........ schobel was a lowball deal and it worked.........that happens, but not very often........i didn't say the strategy didn't work sometime, but i did say it doesn't always work..........in fact, it doesn't work most of the time, judging by the fact 3 of 5 didn't go for it........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 so you agree with the bledsoe trade? the bledsoe extension? the prioleau extension? the troy vincent addition? the ryan denney pick and trade-up? the mike williams pick? the bryce fisher release? the larry centers release? the decision not to replace peerless' production in '03? there is plenty of logic behind my critique.......you just choose to ignore it (along with 4 years out of the playoffs, which i think is a pretty big issue)........ 252669[/snapback] Ok, so you disagree with signing Fletcher, Spikes, Sam Adams, and Posey? You disagree with drafting Clements, Schoebel, Evans, McGahee, Henry, Jennings, etc? You disagree with hiring Mularkey? You disagree with Donahoe fixing the cap situation? You disagree with signing Milloy to replace Wire? You disagree with getting a 1st round pick for Peerless? You disagree with Donahoe cutting Rob Johnson? You disagree with donahoe not resiging Wiley? Right back at ya, bud. I see little logic behind your critique, because not once have you mentioned the good things Donahoe has done. Most people who can think logically weigh the good against the bad and come up with a reasonable evaluation. You, on the other hand, don't do that. Now I'm not going to put you on my ignore list like some other dolts would around here, but unless you can put forth a reasonable argument as to why you can't evaluate someone reasonably, there's no reason to continue this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Good luck getting $3M a year Pat, much less $5M a year. Like I said, no more than Big Sam makes. 252260[/snapback] PW will DEFINITELY get a contract worth at least 3M/year. Some team will overpay for him. The Vikings need a defense and they are 25+ million under the cap. I would pay him 3M/year for his value to the Bills--but not more for a 32 year old DL. 8-9M signing bonus for a 4 year contract you hope he plays 2-3 years for. Make it incentive laden beyond that. Teams will overpay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Ok, so you disagree with signing Fletcher, Spikes, Sam Adams, and Posey? You disagree with drafting Clements, Schoebel, Evans, McGahee, Henry, Jennings, etc? You disagree with hiring Mularkey? You disagree with Donahoe fixing the cap situation? You disagree with signing Milloy to replace Wire? You disagree with getting a 1st round pick for Peerless? You disagree with Donahoe cutting Rob Johnson? You disagree with donahoe not resiging Wiley? Right back at ya, bud. I see little logic behind your critique, because not once have you mentioned the good things Donahoe has done. Most people who can think logically weigh the good against the bad and come up with a reasonable evaluation. You, on the other hand, don't do that. Now I'm not going to put you on my ignore list like some other dolts would around here, but unless you can put forth a reasonable argument as to why you can't evaluate someone reasonably, there's no reason to continue this discussion. 252698[/snapback] of course you weigh the good with the bad........and i have given him credit over time for ALL OF THOSE MOVES.........and now, in this case, i'm calling him out for getting something wrong....... why am i not allowed to take shots at him for bad moves after giving him credit for good moves? that is all i was doing....... some people are way to thin skinned around here.........the moment you mention anything negative about TD, they are all over you.........it's really quite strange....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 My bet is Pat winds up in Washington or Dallas, but probably Washington. They both need defensive players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Ok, so you disagree with signing Fletcher, Spikes, Sam Adams, and Posey? You disagree with drafting Clements, Schoebel, Evans, McGahee, Henry, Jennings, etc? You disagree with hiring Mularkey? You disagree with Donahoe fixing the cap situation? You disagree with signing Milloy to replace Wire? You disagree with getting a 1st round pick for Peerless? You disagree with Donahoe cutting Rob Johnson? You disagree with donahoe not resiging Wiley? Right back at ya, bud. 252698[/snapback] Kudos, Todd. That was excellent ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 This seems to be the way that TD does business. If he can't get the guy at bargain rate, he isn't going to bother putting on any facades. Then he makes it sounds like it is entirely the players' fault that nothing is getting done. IMO, Williams could have been signed much cheaper if TD had wanted, by simply making some effort to show the guy they wanted him here. It may be the case that TD decided Williams was done going into this season. During the season, it sure sounded like Pat wanted to come back. These guys have pride, and if they aren't coddled a little, they get their egos easily bruised. The longer it goes on, the closer it comes to free agency begining, the more likely the players agent is trying to sway the player to test the market. There is more money in it for the player, and the agent that way! TD has operated this way with most of our free agents, and this is pretty much what he did with the Steelers too. If he does not make the effort to sign the player well before his contract is up, the player is as good as gone. I is no coincidence that Anderson was drafted, and Edwards resigned. That sealed Williams' fate in Buffalo. Too bad, I think Williams is/was very underrated, for many years here. I also think Sam Adams benefited as much from him as vice versa. It is tough to dominate in the middle like that. Hopefully, TD knows what he is doing... 252286[/snapback] i totally agree with you - if a bill goes into free agency, he's as good as gone. TD never brings them back after they cross that threshold, either here or with the steelers. the simple fact of the matter is that some teams are so desperate for DT help that they'll pay a lot more money than the bills think he's worth. and they won't be wrong, either. think about it: if a team like KC ponies up 4.5 mil, are they really making a bad move? i don't think so. they're so close on all the other levels that this might put them over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB2004 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I don't like seeing this. Whenever Pat was out of the lineup, we were ran on. I'm actually more disappointed in Pat than TD/Bills. He wants 5 million per year?! at his age? While his buddy Sam, who is better and more versatile, is getting paid 2 per? Gimme a break, Pat. Jonas is the guy I hope we don't lose, but then again, at 3 million per for the next 4 seasons, LJ Shelton would allow the team to do a lot more with their $. Jennings is good, and could be truly great, but we should all trust Jim McNally here. The sacks were WAAAY down once our CURRENT line jelled, and that was with Drew back there. Sounds to me like the bills have studied them and have placed a value on them. Like the pats, they're not going to pay much more than their estimation. The only question is, 'are they as good as the pats at correctly determining a player's value'? http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/foot...s.ap/index.html 252253[/snapback] Well, if Pat can lower his demands by about 2-2.5 million we might be able to stretch out a helping hand. All reports and signs are pointing to Jennings going to another team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 he gave in to moulds because he had to........he was on the cusp of free agency and he didn't have a choice........no lowball there........ schobel was a lowball deal and it worked.........that happens, but not very often........i didn't say the strategy didn't work sometime, but i did say it doesn't always work..........in fact, it doesn't work most of the time, judging by the fact 3 of 5 didn't go for it........... 252682[/snapback] TD does not 'lowball' players. He offers what he feels is fair market value. Big difference, bro. Second, how is it you are so aware of TD and his negotiations that you can even be making this argument to begin with? We already know that TD has approached McGee recently for an extension to get him locked up. We know he approached Winfield. I don't see where you get off assuming that you know TDs job better than he does? There are 365 days in a year.......TDs dealings in these 365 days are publicized on a very limited basis. To say that he's not trying to get certain players locked up, there is just no basis for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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