nodnarb Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I don't like seeing this. Whenever Pat was out of the lineup, we were ran on. I'm actually more disappointed in Pat than TD/Bills. He wants 5 million per year?! at his age? While his buddy Sam, who is better and more versatile, is getting paid 2 per? Gimme a break, Pat. Jonas is the guy I hope we don't lose, but then again, at 3 million per for the next 4 seasons, LJ Shelton would allow the team to do a lot more with their $. Jennings is good, and could be truly great, but we should all trust Jim McNally here. The sacks were WAAAY down once our CURRENT line jelled, and that was with Drew back there. Sounds to me like the bills have studied them and have placed a value on them. Like the pats, they're not going to pay much more than their estimation. The only question is, 'are they as good as the pats at correctly determining a player's value'? http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/foot...s.ap/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Well that means we have money for a guard and a TE, plus maybe a starting Corner who is always out of position (Mcgee). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffBills#1 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Loosing Pat is going to be a huge loss for the Bills, but Donahoe needs to make sure he doesn't overpay for him. I really thought Williams was going to play for the Bills for a lot cheaper but I guess I was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thailog80 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Well we did draft Anderson for a reason. I'd hate to lose Pat but overpaying him isn't the answer either. Come on boys let's work this out.......soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Good luck getting $3M a year Pat, much less $5M a year. Like I said, no more than Big Sam makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Good luck getting $3M a year Pat, much less $5M a year. Like I said, no more than Big Sam makes. 252260[/snapback] Overpaid Fat Horses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsGuyInMalta Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I'd much rather see the Bills go out and re-sign Phat Pat...but its not the end of the world if he leaves. Sam Adams is dominant and Ron Edwards really came on this year and would be totally capable of stepping up. PLUS we didnt draft Tim Anderson on Day One last year to ride the pine his entire career, so he could step and take Pat Williams' place. As for Jennings, I'm much more content to let him walk if Shelton is on his way. I cant believe that he wants as much as Diem got, I dont blame TD at all for refusing to pay that. If both of them leave, we have decent replacements already on roster (or soon to be arriving on roster). Then we can spend that money on a FA Guard and our O-Line can be dominant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Yeah we shouldn't be signing these folks for that much per year, but I don't get why TD isn't at least making an effort to keep the channels of communication open. Both the agents act like they haven't even been able to talk to TD. Instead, he's taking the negotiations to the media. Not a smart move in my opinion and it may hurt the Bills when their asking price goes down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Folks are right that they can't overpay for Pat, but they would be foolish not to give him what he is worth. If he is willing to come fairly and the Bills still ignore this, it should be considered a mistake IMO. Pat is the rock that makes the whole defense work at it's peak. There is no player currently under contract that would come near his production value lined up next to big Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsGuyInMalta Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Pat is the rock that makes the whole defense work at it's peak. 252275[/snapback] I cant really say thats true since about half of the time Pat Williams isnt even in the D-Line since the Bills rotate their line so much. He's a valuable part of it, but definitely not the main focus of the Defense. I came away very impressed with Ron Edwards this year, he got to the QB with some great speed and was a fantastic complement to Sam Adams when they pulled Pat for a breather. Of course there will be some drop-off, but because the rest of the Defense is so damn good, I dont think it will be back-breaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Yeah we shouldn't be signing these folks for that much per year, but I don't get why TD isn't at least making an effort to keep the channels of communication open. Both the agents act like they haven't even been able to talk to TD. Instead, he's taking the negotiations to the media. Not a smart move in my opinion and it may hurt the Bills when their asking price goes down. 252271[/snapback] This seems to be the way that TD does business. If he can't get the guy at bargain rate, he isn't going to bother putting on any facades. Then he makes it sounds like it is entirely the players' fault that nothing is getting done. IMO, Williams could have been signed much cheaper if TD had wanted, by simply making some effort to show the guy they wanted him here. It may be the case that TD decided Williams was done going into this season. During the season, it sure sounded like Pat wanted to come back. These guys have pride, and if they aren't coddled a little, they get their egos easily bruised. The longer it goes on, the closer it comes to free agency begining, the more likely the players agent is trying to sway the player to test the market. There is more money in it for the player, and the agent that way! TD has operated this way with most of our free agents, and this is pretty much what he did with the Steelers too. If he does not make the effort to sign the player well before his contract is up, the player is as good as gone. I is no coincidence that Anderson was drafted, and Edwards resigned. That sealed Williams' fate in Buffalo. Too bad, I think Williams is/was very underrated, for many years here. I also think Sam Adams benefited as much from him as vice versa. It is tough to dominate in the middle like that. Hopefully, TD knows what he is doing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I cant really say thats true since about half of the time Pat Williams isnt even in the D-Line since the Bills rotate their line so much. He's a valuable part of it, but definitely not the main focus of the Defense. I came away very impressed with Ron Edwards this year, he got to the QB with some great speed and was a fantastic complement to Sam Adams when they pulled Pat for a breather. Of course there will be some drop-off, but because the rest of the Defense is so damn good, I dont think it will be back-breaking. 252281[/snapback] I agree......if the Pats can win a Super Bowl without Ty Law and whoever else was injured for them, we can certainly maintain our level of defensive play w/out Pat Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Nod, good find. I don't have time to read everything so if I repeat someone else, I apologize in advance. This is just a good business decision on TD's part. It's unfortunate it has to go public, but he's right: they think they can get more? Let them do the work. We have other options. And they may well have options, too...but where? Arizona? Cleveland? Houston? The Bills are getting ready to make a run and these guys know it. If they can find a better deal, great. But if they can't...we're in the bargaining position. I'd miss them...but the most successful people in the world have one thing in common: they do business on their own terms. That's what TD is doing. They can do it, too...if they can. But make no mistake, TD is in a better position to replace them than they are in finding a better opportunity. More money? Of course. But ALSO with a team about to make a run? Not likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I cant really say thats true since about half of the time Pat Williams isnt even in the D-Line since the Bills rotate their line so much. He's a valuable part of it, but definitely not the main focus of the Defense. I came away very impressed with Ron Edwards this year, he got to the QB with some great speed and was a fantastic complement to Sam Adams when they pulled Pat for a breather. Of course there will be some drop-off, but because the rest of the Defense is so damn good, I dont think it will be back-breaking. 252281[/snapback] Probably not back breaking no, but remember all I'm saying is offer him what he's worth. I agree not to overpay for him. I like Edwards too but really only as a pass rusher. He has not proven to be nearly as capable as a run stopper, and especially not as capable as Pat. As I see it the difference would probably amount to the Bills giving up somewhere around .4 more yards per carry and probably 15 to 20 more yards per game on the ground. They may benefit with Edwards in getting a bit more pressure up the middle on passing plays and 3 or 4 additional sacks for the season. Pat also, like Moulds, is a player who likes Buffalo, is established here, has been loyal to the organization, and has stated he is willing to give the team the "hometown discount" when it comes time to talk turkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 This seems to be the way that TD does business. If he can't get the guy at bargain rate, he isn't going to bother putting on any facades. Then he makes it sounds like it is entirely the players' fault that nothing is getting done. 252286[/snapback] Yeah, cause TD hasn't signed any of the free agents he's targeted since he's been here.......Come on, man.....there is a difference between 'bargain rate' and market value. TD is not trying to underpay players. He simply believes in paying them what they are worth - fair market value. I totally agree with that approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsGuyInMalta Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Probably not back breaking no, but remember all I'm saying is offer him what he's worth. I agree not to overpay for him. I like Edwards too but really only as a pass rusher. He has not proven to be nearly as capable as a run stopper, and especially not as capable as Pat. As I see it the difference would probably amount to the Bills giving up somewhere around .4 more yards per carry and probably 15 to 20 more yards per game on the ground. They may benefit with Edwards in getting a bit more pressure up the middle on passing plays and 3 or 4 additional sacks for the season. Pat also, like Moulds, is a player who likes Buffalo, is established here, has been loyal to the organization, and has stated he is willing to give the team the "hometown discount" when it comes time to talk turkey. 252293[/snapback] I'm all for being fair to Pat Williams, but 5 million bucks a year? Thats twice as much as Sam Adams is making, and I'd be willing to say that more teams fear Sam Adams then Pat Williams. I think Pat's demands are completely outrageous, and he's going to sacrifice winning games for more money. I'd love it if he stayed, but not for that price. I actually want to see the Bills pick up some more help for the O-Line and an upgrade at TE...something that could never happen if we re-sign Pat Williams at that contract demand he has. To me, I'd rather lose Pat Williams and hand it off to one of our backups then make no upgrades to the offense this offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Yeah, cause TD hasn't signed any of the free agents he's targeted since he's been here.......Come on, man.....there is a difference between 'bargain rate' and market value. TD is not trying to underpay players. He simply believes in paying them what they are worth - fair market value. I totally agree with that approach. 252297[/snapback] It's fine for him to only offer fair market value, but he should keep the channels open with the agents and the player so that the player knows that he wants them. Their asking price is going to go down, but if they don't feel wanted in Buffalo they will move on to somewhere else with that lower price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 5M/yr for a guy 32 years old next season? We would miss him big, but another team may overpay him. I would pay him 3M/year but 5M??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 It's fine for him to only offer fair market value, but he should keep the channels open with the agents and the player so that the player knows that he wants them. Their asking price is going to go down, but if they don't feel wanted in Buffalo they will move on to somewhere else with that lower price. 252302[/snapback] Well at 5million/per, we DON'T want him here lol So if big Pat isn't feeling the love, maybe he should lower his contract demands a tad. Regardless of what Lawyer Milloy says, this has got to remain a team first approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beausox Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I don't like seeing this. Whenever Pat was out of the lineup, we were ran on. I'm actually more disappointed in Pat than TD/Bills. He wants 5 million per year?! at his age? While his buddy Sam, who is better and more versatile, is getting paid 2 per? Gimme a break, Pat. Jonas is the guy I hope we don't lose, but then again, at 3 million per for the next 4 seasons, LJ Shelton would allow the team to do a lot more with their $. Jennings is good, and could be truly great, but we should all trust Jim McNally here. The sacks were WAAAY down once our CURRENT line jelled, and that was with Drew back there. Sounds to me like the bills have studied them and have placed a value on them. Like the pats, they're not going to pay much more than their estimation. The only question is, 'are they as good as the pats at correctly determining a player's value'? http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/foot...s.ap/index.html 252253[/snapback] Right. I hope I am right in that TD follows the Warren Buffet mantra of value investing. Phat Pat is good but he never deserved 5 mil at any time and certainly not now. He is good but hardly irreplacable. Takeo, Lee evans, Willis and JP and Clement are worthy of high compensation. The rest have to keep an eye on the draft and free agent list. Is my list too short? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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