New deal for Tyrod Taylor?

[Kirby Jackson]

Perhaps, but IMO Orton was a better field general and leader in the huddle, and going through his reads. As you'd expect from a 10+ year vet vs. first year starter.

 

I think you could argue Orton wins more games than Tyrod in 2015.

That's a stretch. The offense was vastly improved this year. That's not a coincidence. They added playmakers for sure, but Tyrod is one of them. He made plays with his arm and legs. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'm pretty sure the scoring improved. The defense and coaching is what let them down in 2015.

[FireChan]

That's a stretch. The offense was vastly improved this year. That's not a coincidence. They added playmakers for sure, but Tyrod is one of them. He made plays with his arm and legs. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'm pretty sure the scoring improved. The defense and coaching is what let them down in 2015.

Tyrod is absolutely one of them, but an All-Pro caliber guard, a competent OC, a decent TE weapon, Shady, Karlos, even Gillislee would've improved KO's scoring as well.

 

Would Sammy be invisible for the first half of the season or would KO deliver him the ball? Would Woods have his worst career year or would Orton spread the ball around?

 

We may not have had the #1 rushing team in the NFL with Orton. But our passing attack would've been much improved. Keep in mind, we were right around average in terms of passing #'s in 2014 when our running game was one of the worst in the NFL, and our O-line was garbage.

 

I'd say I lean towards Orton being better in 2015, but I'm not going die on that hill. Tyrod has a chance to improve and Orton was who he was.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

 

Let's review:

Rob Johnson

J.P.Losman

Thad Lewis

Jeff Tuel

Kyle Orton

Matt Cassel

E.J. Manuel

Trent Edwards

Alex Van Pelt

Kelly Holcomb

Ryan Fitzpatrick

Brian Brohm

Todd Collins

Doug Flutie

Drew Bledsoe (after seven games)

 

So, who thinks that we should not lock up Tyrod, based on what we have seen so far?

The people who secretly love the Bills playoff drought.

[Maury Ballstein]

The people who secretly love the Bills playoff drought.

Tyrod = part of playoff drought

[Prickly Pete]

Perhaps, but IMO Orton was a better field general and leader in the huddle, and going through his reads. As you'd expect from a 10+ year vet vs. first year starter.

 

I think you could argue Orton wins more games than Tyrod in 2015.

 

I can't believe anyone would consider Orton's performance as a Bill, to be better than Tyrod's.

 

Please, someone come forward to agree with FireChan...I wanna see what comes out from under a rock.

Edited February 27, 2016 by HoF Watkins

[FireChan]

 

I can't believe anyone would consider Orton's performance as a Bill, to be better than Tyrod's.

 

Please, someone come forward to agree with FireChan...I wanna see what comes out from under a rock.

Tyrod had better weapons, a better O-line, an infinitely better running game, and couldn't manage a better winning percentage than Kyle Orton. And Kyle Orton managed a better passing attack with all of those things being worse.

 

You're welcome to disagree, but I don't think it's that far-fetched.

Edited February 27, 2016 by FireChan

[Prickly Pete]

Tyrod had better weapons, a better O-line, an infinitely better running game, and couldn't manage a better winning percentage than Kyle Orton. And Kyle Orton managed a better passing attack with all of those things being worse.

 

You're welcome to disagree, but I don't think it's that far-fetched.

 

I'm done with your opinions, they are just contrarian. You're blocked.

[FireChan]

 

I'm done with your opinions, they are just contrarian. You're blocked.

Hah.

[Kirby Jackson]

Tyrod had better weapons, a better O-line, an infinitely better running game, and couldn't manage a better winning percentage than Kyle Orton. And Kyle Orton managed a better passing attack with all of those things being worse.

 

You're welcome to disagree, but I don't think it's that far-fetched.

The winning percentage is a result of the regression of the defense and coaching.

 

The infinitely better running game had a lot to do with Tyrod. He created a lot of that. He had 568 yards rushing while Orton had 14.

 

In terms of weapons Clay and McCoy were the only additions in the passing game. They lost Freddie who was a good pass catching back until the end of his time here. Clay is the real addition and he's good.

 

I'm not sure what you are using to determine that the passing game was better? Orton averaged 6.75 yards per attempt vs. TT's 7.99. Tyrod threw 20 TDs and 6 INTs in 380 attempts. Orton threw 18 TDs and 10 INTs in 447 attempts. The passing attack wasn't better under Orton. They just threw more.

[1billsfan]

The winning percentage is a result of the regression of the defense and coaching.

 

The infinitely better running game had a lot to do with Tyrod. He created a lot of that. He had 568 yards rushing while Orton had 14.

 

In terms of weapons Clay and McCoy were the only additions in the passing game. They lost Freddie who was a good pass catching back until the end of his time here. Clay is the real addition and he's good.

 

I'm not sure what you are using to determine that the passing game was better? Orton averaged 6.75 yards per attempt vs. TT's 7.99. Tyrod threw 20 TDs and 6 INTs in 380 attempts. Orton threw 18 TDs and 10 INTs in 447 attempts. The passing attack wasn't better under Orton. They just threw more.

 

Also, Tyrod had no NFL starts while Orton had 70 NFL starts and 100 TDs under his belt going into their first season with the Bills. Yet Taylor, by anyone's account, was at least as productive as a guy with Orton's seasoned experience.

 

Having pointed that out, IMO Taylor would have had the Bills in the playoffs if he had Orton's defense from 2014. The same could not be said for Orton having the 2015 Bills in the playoffs. Orton was a statue and even with McCoy and Clay he would not have had a better record than what Taylor had with the Bills this past year. Taylor won a couple of games with his legs, Orton couldn't do that on his most athletic day ever.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Also, Tyrod had no NFL starts while Orton had 70 NFL starts and 100 TDs under his belt going into their first season with the Bills. Yet Taylor, by anyone's account, was at least as productive as a guy with Orton's seasoned experience.

 

Having pointed that out, IMO Taylor would have had the Bills in the playoffs if he had Orton's defense from 2014. The same could not be said for Orton having the 2015 Bills in the playoffs. Orton was a statue and even with McCoy and Clay he would not have had a better record than what Taylor had with the Bills this past year. Taylor won a couple of games with his legs, Orton couldn't do that on his most athletic day ever.

Good point about the experience

[Maury Ballstein]

Yeah. Tyrod really made that defense stink up the joint.

#excuses.

[Nihilarian]

Wow! um.. Dareus, Kyle, Karlos & Aaron Williams, Darby, Gilmore, Wood, C. Glenn, McKelvin, Sanborn, Schmidt, Watkins say hello.

Dareus was a #3 overall and not in the same category. A great draft year in which just about every one of the first 15 picks made the pro bowl. Kyle was a 5th rounder and they got exceedingly lucky...in 2006!

 

Wood, Gilmore, McKelvin, Watkins all first rounders, Sanborn? Schmidt? and how many are pro bowlers?

 

 

Wow! um, overpaying for an edge pass rusher in Mario...100 million and they really tried finding one after Schobel retired in 2009, Aaron Maybin ring any bells, Shawne Merriman? How many playoff games did the team see for that 100 mil?

 

Free agent WR Percy Harvin at around 4 mill, 2.9 fully guaranteed for six games.

 

Overpaying for a RB when they are supposedly easy to find (5yrs, 40 mill= Avg sal 8 mill per, guaran 26.5 mill..now that's a wow! Then giving away a former #1 at RB for a 4th who went on to become a superstar at RB...trading for a 4th for a RB who does nothing and later gets released.

 

Overpaying for a TE in Clay (5 yrs 38 mill=10 mill bonus, AVG sal 7.6 mill, Guran 24.5Mill) Now Doug Whaley spent 3 picks, two first rounders on a WR when he didn't have an already established franchise QB on the roster=wow!

THEN, after the draft, he stated that if the deal had fallen thru for Sammy he would have drafted TE Eric Ebron and not Odell Beckham Jr...man o man!

 

A #2 pick at RT who can't even make the field (Cujo) and since Glenn it looks like the team just got lucky again in finding him in the draft because of the failure to find quality talent since. A note here that Whaley tried to sign high priced free agents RT Brian Bulaga away from the Packers, OG Jahri Evans away from the Saints. The Bills currently still have issues at RG & RT, IMHO. What happens to that line / offense this season if the team doesn't resign Cogs or Glenn? Look at the lineup of scrubs the team brought in to replace Andy Levitre, Colin Brown, Doug Legursky...Chris Williams 5.5 mill in Guaranteed money...for three games

 

28% of the payroll tied up in the pro bowl front four only to hire a HC that makes them look below average to average and not rush the passer.

 

This team has issues finding certain talent at various positions in the draft and really no question about it. Otherwise, they wouldn't need to go nuts overspending on free agents. There is a clear reason why the team is in cap hell and this without paying 10-20 mill per for a franchise QB!!

 

 

Have at it Cue the excuses...

Edited February 27, 2016 by Nihilarian

[FireChan]

The winning percentage is a result of the regression of the defense and coaching.

 

The infinitely better running game had a lot to do with Tyrod. He created a lot of that. He had 568 yards rushing while Orton had 14.

 

In terms of weapons Clay and McCoy were the only additions in the passing game. They lost Freddie who was a good pass catching back until the end of his time here. Clay is the real addition and he's good.

 

I'm not sure what you are using to determine that the passing game was better? Orton averaged 6.75 yards per attempt vs. TT's 7.99. Tyrod threw 20 TDs and 6 INTs in 380 attempts. Orton threw 18 TDs and 10 INTs in 447 attempts. The passing attack wasn't better under Orton. They just threw more.

I'm using passing yards per game, which was right around league average. Tyrod may have been more efficient, but he didn't win any games with his arm.

 

I'd argue that Incognito and to a lesser extent Miller are also additions to both the passing and running game. As well as a revitalized Glenn.

Edited February 27, 2016 by FireChan

[Nihilarian]

 

Also, Tyrod had no NFL starts while Orton had 70 NFL starts and 100 TDs under his belt going into their first season with the Bills. Yet Taylor, by anyone's account, was at least as productive as a guy with Orton's seasoned experience.

 

Having pointed that out, IMO Taylor would have had the Bills in the playoffs if he had Orton's defense from 2014. The same could not be said for Orton having the 2015 Bills in the playoffs. Orton was a statue and even with McCoy and Clay he would not have had a better record than what Taylor had with the Bills this past year. Taylor won a couple of games with his legs, Orton couldn't do that on his most athletic day ever.

You can't compare the offenses from 2014 to 2015! Simply because 2014 was totally pass happy and dependent on the QB to make plays and win games all season. While the other was a run-centric offense that actually was successful running the ball...unlike 2013.

 

Considering the 2014 Buffalo Bills offensive line was just about the very worst line most of the season (Pears at RG ) and the team threw around 40+ times a game while running around only 20. Kyle Orton went 7-5 and passing for 3000+ yards. Orton did a remarkable job in my opinion when you look at who was his OC and the offense around him. The Bills finished 25th in rushing yards in 2014 and 27th in rushing TD's.

 

Taylor had it so much better this past year with an actual NFL OC calling games and setting up decent offensive game plans. Plus Taylor had a much improved line with Incognito at LG.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Nihilarian

[Kirby Jackson]

I'm using passing yards per game, which was right around league average. Tyrod may have been more efficient, but he didn't win any games with his arm.

Passing yards per game come from number of passes thrown in a game. That's why it doesn't work. He wasn't asked to throw it nearly as much as Orton. Orton had 67 more attempts in 2 fewer games. If you gave them the exact same number of attempts Tyrod would have averaged 255 yards per game in the air vs. Orton's 251.5. It still doesn't work.

 

Also, I will give you Incognito as an upgrade. Glenn was there and perhaps Tyrod helped him look better than Orton? I can't give you that. Miller was okay but split time with Urbik who was there before.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Kirby Jackson

[FireChan]

Passing yards per game come from number of passes thrown in a game. That's why it doesn't work. He wasn't asked to throw it nearly as much as Orton. Orton had 67 more attempts in 2 fewer games. If you gave them the exact same number of attempts Tyrod would have averaged 255 yards per game in the air vs. Orton's 251.5. It still doesn't work.

 

Also, I will give you Incognito as an upgrade. Glenn was there and perhaps Tyrod helped him look better than Prton? I can't give you that. Miller was okay but split time with Urbik who was there before.

It works because we had a QB that we could (or were forced to) run the offense through. YPA is well and good as a stat, but if you're gonna tell me Tyrod's 2015 performance is better than all of the QB's he out YPA'd, we'll have to agree to disagree. The QB position is more than just the numbers. Orton on his own had more GWD and 4th QCB's in 2 less games. Yes he threw the ball more. Because he was forced too. He didn't have Shady and a rookie RB phenom, he had the ghost Fred, CJ for half of a year, and the diabolical Boobie/Brown tag team.

 

It's unsurprising Orton was less efficient that Tyrod. With Tyrod, defenses were very worried about the run. With Orton, it was a certainty that we had to pass to win. It'd be unbelievable if Orton has prettier passing numbers. He'd be a $100M man if he did.

 

Also, didn't Miller replace Pears and Incognito replace Urbik? And Glenn had the kidney cut out and missed all of camp with Orton, IIRC.

Edited February 27, 2016 by FireChan

[Kirby Jackson]

It works because we had a QB that we could (or were forced to) run the offense through. YPA is well and good as a stat, but if you're gonna tell me Tyrod's 2015 performance is better than all of the QB's he out YPA'd, we'll have to agree to disagree. The QB position is more than just the numbers. Orton on his own had more GWD and 4th QCB's in 2 less games. Yes he threw the ball more. Because he was forced too. He didn't have Shady and a rookie RB phenom, he had the ghost Fred, CJ for half of a year, and the diabolical Boobie/Brown tag team.

 

It's unsurprising Orton was less efficient that Tyrod. With Tyrod, defenses were very worried about the run. With Orton, it was a certainty that we had to pass to win. It'd be unbelievable if Orton has prettier passing numbers. He'd be a $100M man if he did.

 

Also, didn't Miller replace Pears and Incognito replace Urbik? And Glenn had the kidney cut out and missed all of camp with Orton, IIRC.

Yes on the last part but Urbik played quite a bit this year for Miller.

 

As to the rest of it the flip side is true. The Bills weren't forced to throw this year because they could run successfully. It is the chicken and the egg. It's like saying Reggie Jackson is a better scorer than LaMarcus Aldridge because he is averaging more points per game. He is averaging more PPG because the Pistons need him to score more than the Spurs need Aldridge to. The Bills didn't need Tyrod to throw all of the time to be effective. You can't say that the passing game was worse because they threw less. The numbers say that with the same number of attempts TT would have had 3.5 more yards per game, 5.5 more TDs and 3 less INTs.

 

And again, to the original point that Taylor was better in 2015 than Orton in 2014, none of this even accounts for the extra 554 yards Taylor gave you on the ground. He was giving an you extra 40 yards a game on the ground.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Kirby Jackson

[FireChan]

Yes on the last part but Urbik played quite a bit this year for Miller.

 

As to the rest of it the flip side is true. The Bills weren't forced to throw this year because they could run successfully. It is the chicken and the egg. It's like saying Reggie Jackson is a better scorer than LaMarcus Aldridge because he is averaging more points per game. He is averaging more PPG because the Pistons need him to score more than the Spurs need Aldridge to. The Bills didn't need Tyrod to throw all of the time to be effective. You can't say that the passing game was worse because they threw less. The numbers say that with the same number of attempts TT would have had 3.5 more yards per game, 5.5 more TDs and 3 less INTs.

 

And again, to the original point that Taylor was better in 2015 than Orton in 2014, none of this even accounts for the extra 554 yards Taylor gave you on the ground. He was giving an you extra 40 yards a game on the ground.

I think Taylor was a little better than Orton in 2015 compared to 2014. But I wonder what Orton would've done in 2015 with the revamped offense. That was more my point.

[Kirby Jackson]

I think Taylor was a little better than Orton in 2015 compared to 2014. But I wonder what Orton would've done in 2015 with the revamped offense. That was more my point.

FWIW, I liked Orton. I wish that he was still on the roster. He is smart, experienced and can play for a few weeks if necessary. Orton would be the perfect mentor for a good team with a young QB.