BarleyNY Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 The part some of us are having trouble with is: "Carr is in the discussion of best college quarterbacks of all time". Yeah I understand but to call David Carr one of the best QBs ever to play college football is a bit of an exaggeration. I mean obviously he was good enough to get drafted #1 overall but come on. He played out at Fresno St. They had a decent team but they were an afterthought in the grand scheme of big time college football. Ah. My bad. I guess I'd already moved on mentally from that statement. Unless you're asking his brother, Derek, David Carr doesn't show up much in that conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 He was - but he might have had a better chance not to be if that Houston line had been able to protect him even a little bit. I am not saying he would have been Aaron Rodgers, he almost certainly wouldn't, but when you look at the last 6 or 7 games of this season that Rodgers played you see how much a mess of a line can spook a Quarterback... even a proven great one. This argument is a stretch, but one thing that should be in no doubt is circumstance matters for developing a Quarterback in the NFL. I absolutely believe that the same individual could have a totally different trajectory in two different places. I don't doubt those points. None the less, you can put JaMarcus Russell in New England behind then Drew Bledsoe, and he won't suddenly morph into Tom Brady. Robo-sack Rob Johnson's 14.8% sack rate doesn't change all that much because he's behind the best line in the NFL. There's numerous examples, where a chunk is just a chunk. I think in the NFL that it's a lot closer than people want to recognize, in terms of the chances that players make for themselves versus those that are given/granted. As for Rodgers and his last 7 games, would you ever turn down 11 touchdowns to only 5 interceptions? Granted, the rest of the season was 20-3, but I'll take 11/5 ratio all day, every day. In fact, I'll say that 11/5 for any quarterback considered "spooked" is pretty much hall of fame. At the end of the day, I'm not buying off on such a dramatic difference in "trajectory" of a career as you are. NBD, just a difference in opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Ah. My bad. I guess I'd already moved on mentally from that statement. Unless you're asking his brother, Derek, David Carr doesn't show up much in that conversation. Maybe they're talking about their other brother Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I don't doubt those points. None the less, you can put JaMarcus Russell in New England behind then Drew Bledsoe, and he won't suddenly morph into Tom Brady. Robo-sack Rob Johnson's 14.8% sack rate doesn't change all that much because he's behind the best line in the NFL. There's numerous examples, where a chunk is just a chunk. I think in the NFL that it's a lot closer than people want to recognize, in terms of the chances that players make for themselves versus those that are given/granted. As for Rodgers and his last 7 games, would you ever turn down 11 touchdowns to only 5 interceptions? Granted, the rest of the season was 20-3, but I'll take 11/5 ratio all day, every day. In fact, I'll say that 11/5 for any quarterback considered "spooked" is pretty much hall of fame. At the end of the day, I'm not buying off on such a dramatic difference in "trajectory" of a career as you are. NBD, just a difference in opinion. I appreciate your response. I wasn't meaning to say anyone can be a Rodgers or a Brady and I think swapping Carr and Rodgers is, as I say, a stretch. But I do think circumstance matters more than you do. And Rodgers 11 TD to 5 INT was as an experienced vet. You put first year Aaron Rodgers behind that line and it is a lot messier. Carr might never have been any good. But his NFL career was definitively killed before he had a chance by the horrible situation he walked into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I appreciate your response. I wasn't meaning to say anyone can be a Rodgers or a Brady and I think swapping Carr and Rodgers is, as I say, a stretch. But I do think circumstance matters more than you do. And Rodgers 11 TD to 5 INT was as an experienced vet. You put first year Aaron Rodgers behind that line and it is a lot messier. Carr might never have been any good. But his NFL career was definitively killed before he had a chance by the horrible situation he walked into. I always appreciate dialogue over everything else, so thanks as well! Was Carr's NFL career really killed by circumstance? He had 11 years and 4 NFL teams to work out his issues. Houston was terrible and he was essentially the starting face of the franchise, which I'm sure didn't help. But he never really showed me anything. To me, he's essentially an upgrade from Rob Johnson, which says a lot of how horrible Johnson was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I always appreciate dialogue over everything else, so thanks as well! Was Carr's NFL career really killed by circumstance? He had 11 years and 4 NFL teams to work out his issues. Houston was terrible and he was essentially the starting face of the franchise, which I'm sure didn't help. But he never really showed me anything. To me, he's essentially an upgrade from Rob Johnson, which says a lot of how horrible Johnson was. I think anyone who gets battered about like he did the first 3 years in particular in Houston would get the yips. He was never going to make it anywhere else after that. As I say - he might have sucked regardless. But he never had a chance. I don't think Carr in Rodgers' situation in Green Bay is Rodgers.... but I do think Rodgers in Carr's situation in Houston might well have looked like Carr. I'm not sure anyone would have come out of that the other side as a franchise QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I think anyone who gets battered about like he did the first 3 years in particular in Houston would get the yips. He was never going to make it anywhere else after that. As I say - he might have sucked regardless. But he never had a chance. I don't think Carr in Rodgers' situation in Green Bay is Rodgers.... but I do think Rodgers in Carr's situation in Houston might well have looked like Carr. I'm not sure anyone would have come out of that the other side as a franchise QB. Here's the problem I have with this logic. Carr waited to throw the ball a LOT. Rodgers doesn't. Rodgers throws the ball whether there's coverage or not in under 2 seconds. Brady does the same, even better. It doesn't matter what his offensive line is doing. It's almost irrelevant. It's not that they've always had the best offensive lines, so much as them making their own situation. Peyton Manning has been in the NFL for 18 years and it's never mattered what his offensive line looked like. On the flip side of that argument, it doesn't matter how good an offensive line is either. If you're waiting 3-4 seconds to throw the ball in the NFL and you're a statue (which Carr was), you're going to get hammered a LOT. It's all conjecture and speculation I know, but I don't see any scenario where Carr would have been anything. Same with robo-sack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Here's the problem I have with this logic. Carr waited to throw the ball a LOT. Rodgers doesn't. Rodgers throws the ball whether there's coverage or not in under 2 seconds. Brady does the same, even better. It doesn't matter what his offensive line is doing. It's almost irrelevant. It's not that they've always had the best offensive lines, so much as them making their own situation. Peyton Manning has been in the NFL for 18 years and it's never mattered what his offensive line looked like. On the flip side of that argument, it doesn't matter how good an offensive line is either. If you're waiting 3-4 seconds to throw the ball in the NFL and you're a statue (which Carr was), you're going to get hammered a LOT. It's all conjecture and speculation I know, but I don't see any scenario where Carr would have been anything. Same with robo-sack. But I don't think Carr was holding the ball a lot from day 1 and Rodgers was getting it out quick from day 1 - scheme and their experiences played a part in shaping them, that is my point. Very few people come into the league the Quarterback that they end up. Peyton Manning is one rare exception who to a larger extent did. Carr was sacked 76 times his rookie year - that isn't just a QB who holds the ball a bit it is a line that is a sieve. I think that would destroy anyone - I think it would have destroyed Rodgers too. Carr might well have sucked in another circumstance as well.... I am no disputing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Generally speaking, I think there's a very fine line between 90% of the 'top college QBs' in whether they work out, or flame out in the NFL, and that fine line is often times decided by the team and coaching behind the development. I don't think Brady would be the GOAT if he were drafted by the Bills, for example. As far as Carr and Rodgers, who the hell knows, but I'm not against the notion things would be different if their situations were reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Carr was ruined by the beating he took in Houston. Too bad as he was a decent QB in college, but the best of all time in college. Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty McFly Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 He was - but he might have had a better chance not to be if that Houston line had been able to protect him even a little bit. I am not saying he would have been Aaron Rodgers, he almost certainly wouldn't, but when you look at the last 6 or 7 games of this season that Rodgers played you see how much a mess of a line can spook a Quarterback... even a proven great one. This argument is a stretch, but one thing that should be in no doubt is circumstance matters for developing a Quarterback in the NFL. I absolutely believe that the same individual could have a totally different trajectory in two different places. Agree. same player in two diff team and coaching situations will make them better or worse by what margin IDK... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Carr is in the discussion of best college quarterbacks of all time, as is Rogers (less so). What happens to Carr if he gets to sit for four years and play with that online in Green Bay? What if Rogers has to start right away, behind the oline at the time in Houston? Does he do worse than Carr? LMAO. WTF? I've NEVER heard him even mentioned as being the best college QB of all time. Based off what. His broke brother who's now trying to live through his brother?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 LMAO. WTF? I've NEVER heard him even mentioned as being the best college QB of all time. Based off what. His broke brother who's now trying to live through his brother?? Actually it was Derek who said David belonged in that conversation. It was a fairly recent interview and maybe he was just trying to show his brother a little love or something. But no one has been agreeing with him and quite a few have pointed out how ridiculous of a statement it was. It was kinda like if he'd said that Jessica Alba was in consideration for the most beautiful woman ever. Sure, she is (was?) attractive and all, but someone would have to be a huge fan of, very specifically, Jessica Alba to even consider putting her on that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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