Little Help Please X and O question for the Football Pros

[plenzmd1]

I have a couple questions i am hoping more of the football experts can help me understand better.

 

1) Can someone explain to me how Rex is using the front 4 different this year than last year. I am not looking for the simple "mario dropping into coverage" ...but how his front and scheme is different than than the wide 9 and how that would impact the play of the D-Line.

 

 

2) How does that impact the back 7, and does that somehow factor into why QB's are able to make such quick reads?

 

3) all off season we hear about"installing " the offense and Defense., and spending week upon weeks perfecting it. Is changing the basic scheme and concepts realistic this far into the season?

 

Appreciate any insight .

 

 

[BackInDaDay]

I have a couple questions i am hoping more of the football experts can help me understand better.

 

1) Can someone explain to me how Rex is using the front 4 different this year than last year. I am not looking for the simple "mario dropping into coverage" ...but how his front and scheme is different than than the wide 9 and how that would impact the play of the D-Line.

 

simply put.. last season Schwartz used Marcell and Kyle to get a push up the middle, while Mario and Hughes contained and brought pressure from the edges.

 

2) How does that impact the back 7, and does that somehow factor into why QB's are able to make such quick reads?

 

opponents had to give their 5 O linemen help handling our elite front 4. this kept potential receivers in the box on passing downs, and allowed us to respond with occasional stunts and blitzes involving our back 7 personnel with less risk of exposure. the offensive response of quick hitting pass plays was there last year, as well.. but our combination of LBs and Safeties were able to give our CBs better help defending against inside routes.

 

btw - although he was more of a match-up issue than Brown and Bradham in coverage, don't underestimate Spike's impact as a force behind our line. opponents could not run inside, and Brown and Bradham supported the outside run defense very well. also, i think A Williams was a good replacement for Searcy in last year's defense, but too much is being asked of him and his subs in this D. they're hitters, and react very well.. but they don't seem to recognize their assignments quickly enough in Rex's complex coverage schemes.

 

3) all off season we hear about"installing " the offense and Defense., and spending week upon weeks perfecting it. Is changing the basic scheme and concepts realistic this far into the season?

 

we already have similar defensive schemes installed, but they aren't complimentary to Rex's desire to disguise when and from where pressure will come. they're comparatively 'vanilla' in nature, that leave less options.

 

Appreciate any insight .

 

 

 

my thoughts - off the top of my head

Edited October 21, 2015 by BackInDaDay

[Punching Bag]

I think Searcy's value is underrated. The wide alignment was better at dividing the field than current alignment allowing more yards after the catch and more holes for WRs and TEs to catch balls in hence less plays on the ball by defense. I think the poor offense in camp also made them ill prepared to face better offenses.

[vincec]

I have a couple questions i am hoping more of the football experts can help me understand better.

 

1) Can someone explain to me how Rex is using the front 4 different this year than last year. I am not looking for the simple "mario dropping into coverage" ...but how his front and scheme is different than than the wide 9 and how that would impact the play of the D-Line.

 

 

2) How does that impact the back 7, and does that somehow factor into why QB's are able to make such quick reads?

 

3) all off season we hear about"installing " the offense and Defense., and spending week upon weeks perfecting it. Is changing the basic scheme and concepts realistic this far into the season?

 

Appreciate any insight .

 

I don't claim to be an expert, but my take is this:

 

Schwartz's defense was designed to maximize the playmaking of the front 4 and allow the rest of the defense to play with 7 DBs in various coverages as much as possible. The DL was focused on penetration from wide positions with lots of stunting. The secondary used more zones and focused on disguise to allow the DL time to work. The basic idea is that if you can stop the run with 7 and get pressure with four, you are going to be very tough to move the ball against.

 

Rex's scheme is to play much more man coverage to allow more players in the box- safeties and LBs to play the run and blitz (or fake blitz). The DL plays more traditional run first defense and have more two gap responsibilities. The defense is really designed to work with superior linebackers (especially the outside guys), excellent cornerbacks and big immovable linemen. I thin Rex has been playing much more 1 gap with the DL than he did in NY but they are still no where near as free to wreak havoc as they were under Schwartz.

 

One thing that has improved- with the DL playing more conservatively and more players in the box the run defense is better than last year. However, the pass defense relies on confusing the blocking schemes and effective blitzing and that hasn't been happening.

 

Simply put, I think that Schwartz's scheme may fit the Bills personnel better but they are talented enough as a group to play any decent scheme and be successful.

[The Frankish Reich]

I don't claim to be an expert, but my take is this:

 

Schwartz's defense was designed to maximize the playmaking of the front 4 and allow the rest of the defense to play with 7 DBs in various coverages as much as possible. The DL was focused on penetration from wide positions with lots of stunting. The secondary used more zones and focused on disguise to allow the DL time to work. The basic idea is that if you can stop the run with 7 and get pressure with four, you are going to be very tough to move the ball against.

 

Rex's scheme is to play much more man coverage to allow more players in the box- safeties and LBs to play the run and blitz (or fake blitz). The DL plays more traditional run first defense and have more two gap responsibilities. The defense is really designed to work with superior linebackers (especially the outside guys), excellent cornerbacks and big immovable linemen. I thin Rex has been playing much more 1 gap with the DL than he did in NY but they are still no where near as free to wreak havoc as they were under Schwartz.

 

One thing that has improved- with the DL playing more conservatively and more players in the box the run defense is better than last year. However, the pass defense relies on confusing the blocking schemes and effective blitzing and that hasn't been happening.

 

Simply put, I think that Schwartz's scheme may fit the Bills personnel better but they are talented enough as a group to play any decent scheme and be successful.

Excellent explanation - thanks. Still kind of mystifies me that Rex seems to have actually found his two excellent cover corners in Gilmore and Darby, which (in his scheme) should free up a bunch of other guys to put pressure on the QB or make plays on balls in the air. Where are all those extra bodies wreaking havoc, particularly when Mario is doing his favorite thing and dropping into coverage?

[John from Riverside]

A lot of other people will cover other aspects of this but I am going to say why I THINK Rex is even doing it in the first place

 

- Rex is not used to having the talent in the front 4 that this team has.......

 

 

- Therefore...on past teams he has even made Aaron Maybin somewhat servicable.....he knows how to make players that are not great work in a system

 

 

- Also.....a lot of people might question why this team is not at least as good as Pettine's D......well....Pettines D was all about sacks and stopping the run was secondary to him....and it actually shows on the Browns as well....Rex DOES care about stopping the run and it shows in his D

 

- Rex needs to trust his down linemen a little more......he needs to simplify it......and OCCASIONALLY do his exotic stuff.......the exotic stuff should not be the bread and butter of the defense because it doesnt need to be.

 

- He is tryng to confuse QBs....what he doesnt not realize (but I feel that he will) that knocking a QB on their ass every play works much better then trying to create confusion. Just like Jim Kelly said

[plenzmd1]

I don't claim to be an expert, but my take is this:

 

Schwartz's defense was designed to maximize the playmaking of the front 4 and allow the rest of the defense to play with 7 DBs in various coverages as much as possible. The DL was focused on penetration from wide positions with lots of stunting. The secondary used more zones and focused on disguise to allow the DL time to work. The basic idea is that if you can stop the run with 7 and get pressure with four, you are going to be very tough to move the ball against.

 

Rex's scheme is to play much more man coverage to allow more players in the box- safeties and LBs to play the run and blitz (or fake blitz). The DL plays more traditional run first defense and have more two gap responsibilities. The defense is really designed to work with superior linebackers (especially the outside guys), excellent cornerbacks and big immovable linemen. I thin Rex has been playing much more 1 gap with the DL than he did in NY but they are still no where near as free to wreak havoc as they were under Schwartz.

 

One thing that has improved- with the DL playing more conservatively and more players in the box the run defense is better than last year. However, the pass defense relies on confusing the blocking schemes and effective blitzing and that hasn't been happening.

 

Simply put, I think that Schwartz's scheme may fit the Bills personnel better but they are talented enough as a group to play any decent scheme and be successful.

Thank you. This was very good.

 

Thanks for all the other replies as well

[BarleyNY]

I don't claim to be an expert, but my take is this:

Schwartz's defense was designed to maximize the playmaking of the front 4 and allow the rest of the defense to play with 7 DBs in various coverages as much as possible. The DL was focused on penetration from wide positions with lots of stunting. The secondary used more zones and focused on disguise to allow the DL time to work. The basic idea is that if you can stop the run with 7 and get pressure with four, you are going to be very tough to move the ball against.

Rex's scheme is to play much more man coverage to allow more players in the box- safeties and LBs to play the run and blitz (or fake blitz). The DL plays more traditional run first defense and have more two gap responsibilities. The defense is really designed to work with superior linebackers (especially the outside guys), excellent cornerbacks and big immovable linemen. I thin Rex has been playing much more 1 gap with the DL than he did in NY but they are still no where near as free to wreak havoc as they were under Schwartz.

One thing that has improved- with the DL playing more conservatively and more players in the box the run defense is better than last year. However, the pass defense relies on confusing the blocking schemes and effective blitzing and that hasn't been happening.

Simply put, I think that Schwartz's scheme may fit the Bills personnel better but they are talented enough as a group to play any decent scheme and be successful.

I'd add this to vincec's explanation (nice job):

Schwartz's Wide 9 is really designed to rush the passer at the expense of playing the run as it is easy for the OTs to push the wide technique DEs out of any interior running plays. They even take themselves out of a lot of them. That kind of trade-off is best utilized when the offense is high powered enough to force the opposition into passing. When Indy had Manning they had this philosophy with defensive personnel and scheme (although I don't remember how much Wide 9 they played). Dwight Freeney was the poster boy for that. He was too small as a RDE to effectively set the edge and play the run, but he could sure get to the QB. And with Manning, opposing teams almost always had to pass to keep up.

 

Under Schwartz and Pettine I kept wondering why the defenses were so geared toward the pass and so unconcerned with the run because we didn't have the offense to consistently get ahead and force teams into pass-only mode. Looking at what happened in Miami I think it's safe to say that the defense can still get set loose on a QB if the Bills get a nice lead. The problem has been getting that lead so it can happen.

[Alaska Darin]

People have very short memories. Schwartz' defenses struggled against good offenses as well.

 

1. Chargers rolled us to a big lead and then took the air out of the ball because our offense couldn't score enough to win.

2. Denver did the same thing.

3. Brady threw for 361 yards and 4 TDs in the game they played against us that mattered. This included giving up

4. The week after Jordie Nelson gift wrapped a win for us, the defense got physically dominated in Oakland by one of the worst offenses in the league with a rookie QB.

5. Blew a 10 point lead in the KC game (granted, one drive started at the 18 but that's where elite defenses have to force a FG, not give up a TD in two plays).

 

We didn't beat an elite offense all season. The closest thing was probably the Detroit game because they kept Detroit to FG attempts.

[FireChan]

People have very short memories. Schwartz' defenses struggled against good offenses as well.

 

1. Chargers rolled us to a big lead and then took the air out of the ball because our offense couldn't score enough to win.

2. Denver did the same thing.

3. Brady threw for 361 yards and 4 TDs in the game they played against us that mattered. This included giving up

4. The week after Jordie Nelson gift wrapped a win for us, the defense got physically dominated in Oakland by one of the worst offenses in the league with a rookie QB.

5. Blew a 10 point lead in the KC game (granted, one drive started at the 18 but that's where elite defenses have to force a FG, not give up a TD in two plays).

 

We didn't beat an elite offense all season. The closest thing was probably the Detroit game because they kept Detroit to FG attempts.

We didn't beat Green Bay? Edited October 22, 2015 by FireChan

[Alaska Darin]

We didn't beat Green Bay?

Sure. Mostly because Nelson dropped a 90+ yard TD when the game was on the line.

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/green-bay-packers/0ap3000000443861/Jordy-Nelson-drops-perfect-pass-from-Aaron-Rodgers

 

I put more of that game on GBs coaches because for whatever reason they just stopped running the ball.

[FireChan]

Sure. Mostly because Nelson dropped a 90+ yard TD when the game was on the line.

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/green-bay-packers/0ap3000000443861/Jordy-Nelson-drops-perfect-pass-from-Aaron-Rodgers

Game on the line, with a whole quarter to go?

 

C'mon AD, it was obviously a big-time mistake that helped us, but let's not pretend like the GB offense didn't get manhandled all day.

[Alaska Darin]

Game on the line, with a whole quarter to go?

 

C'mon AD, it was obviously a big-time mistake that helped us, but let's not pretend like the GB offense didn't get manhandled all day.

They didn't get "manhandled". They chose not to take what was being given them. Had they continued to run the ball instead of making Rogers try to win the game, they would have rolled us. Their running backs had 19 carries for 120ish yards. Lacy was ripping us and for some inexplicable reason they just stopped running the ball.

 

And it doesn't change the overall point of Schwartz' defense not being anywhere near as good as the sales job going on. They dominated bad teams and got torched most of the time against top level QBs.

[boyst]

Nothing to add worth adding. Great job guys

 

Rex simply can't coach D anymore as teams are too fast. Too spread out and have too much on the field for his LB's

[BrooklynBills]

Highest Pass Yards/Attempt this season:

Tom Brady 7.9 (2 sacks)

Andy Dalton 7.4 (0 sacks)

 

Highest Pass Yards/Attempt last season:

Jay Cutler 7.1 (BTW Kyle Williams with an INT dropping into coverage)

Phillip Rivers 10.2 (2 sacks)

Ryan Fitzpatrick 7.2 (3 sacks)

Matthew Stafford 7.5 (6 sacks)

Tom Brady 9.8 (2 sacks)

Ryan Tannehill 7.1 (5 sacks)

Peyton Manning 8.7 (0 sacks)

 

This D gave up good passing games last year also, several that were statistically worse than the games Brady and Dalton have had this season. Relatively speaking, this is the same group as last year. Considering passing numbers are generally up in the beginning of the season and will taper off somewhat as the season progresses, I think the Bills pass defense is just as good as last season. Their sack numbers are down, but against good, smart QBs last year they averaged around 2/game.

 

All the talk of 34 vs. 43, and scheme fit is just noise. Rex has coached 43 defenses and 34 defenses. He coached the 2000 Ravens 43 defensive line. He switched them from a base 34 to base 43 when he took over the Ravens D in 2005. He has employed a 34 base, a 43 base, the 46 at various times. If anyone is NOT married to a scheme it his him. When he took over the Jets, they had just been playing under Eric Mancini's 34 defense so rather than overhaul their D, he adapted the 46 to it.

 

They need to bring more pressure for sure but I think this amounts to playcalling as much as the players not fitting his defense.

[midland]

I also believe having a good offense, not what we have displayed the past several years, makes your defense much better.

[FireChan]

They didn't get "manhandled". They chose not to take what was being given them. Had they continued to run the ball instead of making Rogers try to win the game, they would have rolled us. Their running backs had 19 carries for 120ish yards. Lacy was ripping us and for some inexplicable reason they just stopped running the ball.

 

And it doesn't change the overall point of Schwartz' defense not being anywhere near as good as the sales job going on. They dominated bad teams and got torched most of the time against top level QBs.

I don't know how Rodgers having the worst game ever in his career isn't being manhandled. You say they got away from the run and relied on Rodgers. While that's true, we still dominated Rodgers. That just doesn't happen often.

 

The Schwartz defense was lights out for the second half of the season, barring the Oakland game (which, admittedly, was terrible). Yes, they beat up on bad teams too. Who cares?

 

Peyton was dominated. Rodgers was dominated. Brady threw all over them in his first game. Rivers had a good game against them early. That looks like 50-50 to me, not "most of the time."

 

While the start of the season wasn't great for the defense, they improved the second half of the season. Is it unreasonable to expect the defense that played for the second half of the season to continue playing at that high-level the next year instead of regressing? Denver did.

[BrooklynBills]

Rodgers was dominated, and the fact that he still could have won the game is testimate to how good he is and not a statement that the Bills D got lucky(also says something about how bad our offense was that day).

 

Manning was not dominated. He wasn't sacked, and even with his 3 INTS, he still averaged big passing numbers per attempt which means he was still hitting some big throws. But again, a game that is probably different if the offense can do anything.

 

Rivers not just had a good game, he crushed us. Brady also. He was better last year than he was this year IMO.

 

Statistically, it is very reasonable to expect a good D to regress the next season. They are much harder to predict from season to season.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

A lot of other people will cover other aspects of this but I am going to say why I THINK Rex is even doing it in the first place

 

- Rex is not used to having the talent in the front 4 that this team has.......

 

 

- Therefore...on past teams he has even made Aaron Maybin somewhat servicable.....he knows how to make players that are not great work in a system

 

 

- Also.....a lot of people might question why this team is not at least as good as Pettine's D......well....Pettines D was all about sacks and stopping the run was secondary to him....and it actually shows on the Browns as well....Rex DOES care about stopping the run and it shows in his D

 

- Rex needs to trust his down linemen a little more......he needs to simplify it......and OCCASIONALLY do his exotic stuff.......the exotic stuff should not be the bread and butter of the defense because it doesnt need to be.

 

- He is tryng to confuse QBs....what he doesnt not realize (but I feel that he will) that knocking a QB on their ass every play works much better then trying to create confusion. Just like Jim Kelly said

 

Agree with this for the most part. The scheme isnt necessarily bad - the complicated nature of it is allowing quick snap and no huddle to get free plays when were confused. That's on Rex to simplify it, and use it when needed. If you aren't getting any pressure, go with exotic blitz looks. If you can get pressure with the front 4, dont bother lining up in those gaps, give the linebackers the extra steps so they can stay with their man.

 

The biggest problem is the D seems to have difficulty lining up in a man coverage defense believe it or not. The linebackers keep getting caught up in traffic and PA, and the safeties seem slow.