Henry for OT Shelton

[COACH85]

We need to get something decent for Henry and Shelton is a proven player.

We need OL help, and even more so if we don't resign Jennings.

Just a thought................................

[VABills]

We need to get something decent for Henry and Shelton is a proven player.

We need OL help, and even more so if we don't resign Jennings.

Just a thought................................

233393[/snapback]

So you are proposing trading our backup running back who fumbles a lot, can't catch and won't block, for a starting RT, who used to be the starting LT for 5 years. Who will play LT and only was displaced because the coach was being a jerk and wanted the 1st rounder they drafted a few years ago to actually play the position he was drafted for (Leonard Davis).

[John from Riverside]

So you are proposing trading our backup running back who fumbles a lot, can't catch and won't block, for a starting RT, who used to be the starting LT for 5 years.  Who will play LT and only was displaced because the coach was being a jerk and wanted the 1st rounder they drafted a few years ago to actually play the position he was drafted for (Leonard Davis).

233403[/snapback]

 

 

Well....yeah...why not?

[Happy Days Lois & Clark]

TD should jump at the chance to get a quality left tackle for only 3mil/season.

 

Trading Travis Henry would certainly be worth it to do so

[VABills]

Well....yeah...why not?

233407[/snapback]

Umm... probably because Shelton contract is cap friendly, he is a starting LT, and pretty good to boot. He will not be had for less then a 1st rounder if not more.

 

Travis Henry is not worth a 1st and we had this discussion on here a few days ago. There were those proposing that Henry is so good that Arizona should ship us Shelton and their 2nd rounder for Henry.

[Tipster19]

It's more possible than one would think. He's uncle is Damion and I'm sure that wouldn't hurt the negoiating.

[VABills]

It's more possible than one would think. He's uncle is Damion and I'm sure that wouldn't hurt the negoiating.

233415[/snapback]

How does having Damion help? Shelton is under contract. Arizona is going to trade him where they get the most for him.

 

Personally I would give up a first rounder next year for him, and hell give Travis to them, just to get rid of him.

[Navy Chief Navy Pride]

The same shelton for TH threads!

 

The same THIS GUY CUT HIS NUTS OFF thread!!

 

The same cool chick ate the burger thread!!!(Istill love a woman with 6 lbs of meat in her mouth though).

 

Next thing you know T-Boner will start a Red Sux thread and we will all be dooooooooooooooooooooomed I say doooooooooooooooooooooooomed

[CosmicBills]

I doubt the trade would happen. But if it did, I think the Bills would still resign JJ and move either MW to LG or Shelton to LG.

 

Shelton would be a terrific guard, much moreso than he would be at LT.

 

Still, I don't see it happening.

[Beerball]

The same shelton for TH threads!

 

The same THIS GUY CUT HIS NUTS OFF thread!!

 

The same cool chick ate the burger thread!!!(Istill love a woman with 6 lbs of meat in her mouth though).

 

Next thing you know T-Boner will start a Red Sux thread and we will all be dooooooooooooooooooooomed I say doooooooooooooooooooooooomed

233550[/snapback]

Don't forget about Deep Throat

 

OR

 

The Pats coaching staff

 

OR

 

The guy who cut off his own nuts over a bet and then carried them into the bar to show his friends and is now in hospital.

 

Thank god Jay has started posting Halle Berry photos again. Oh wait---someone posted the same picture before he did, never mind.

[d_wag]

Umm... probably because Shelton contract is cap friendly, he is a starting LT, and pretty good to boot.  He will not be had for less then a 1st rounder if not more. 

233412[/snapback]

 

how much did you think pete kendall was worth before they CUT HIM??

 

obviously green doesn't put too much stock in what he gets back when he sets his mind on getting rid of someone.......

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Umm... probably because Shelton contract is cap friendly, he is a starting LT, and pretty good to boot.  He will not be had for less then a 1st rounder if not more. 

 

Travis Henry is not worth a 1st and we had this discussion on here a few days ago.  There were those proposing that Henry is so good that Arizona should ship us Shelton and their 2nd rounder for Henry.

233412[/snapback]

 

Look folks are talking about this because AZ and TD have donethe same thing which is to give both TH and Shelton the right to seek a deal.

 

The positions the players play make sense for both teams as the Bills stand to lose an LT to FA and because the starting RB at AZ has retired.

 

The cap exchange makes sense because both Shelton and TH are under contract in '05 and for whatever reason AZ has decided they can handle the accelerated bonus of Shelton on their cap.

 

Does this trade make sense for either or both teams? Yes, if they feel they get approrpiate value in exchange.

 

I think most Bills fans would happily see TD give up some future draft choices in addition to TH in order to get this deal done. In order to get this deal the key thing for TD to do right now is to sing Henry's praises and pump up his value.

 

I would think even those who judge TH to be dreck would endorse this strategy merely as a mechanism to get rid of Henry.

 

I have no problem with us singing TH's praises and us giving up some speculative future draft picks to get a recent starting LT at a cost of $3 million per year. I don't see why any Bills fan would have a problem with this.

 

Is this a good deal for AZ? I hope they think so.

 

The biggest question I would have about TH is that he has been hurt a number of times in his brief career. The good news is that when he got a fracture before he showed great toughness in playing through it and still being productive for the Bills.

 

It appears that any injury problems he had last year and his failure to produce through the injury or at a starter RB level at all last year may have had as much to do with the Bills obviously having given up on him for WM.

 

Fan complaints on TSW that he can't catch or blitz-pick-up are fortunately ignored for the most part as the usual fan blathering and do not seem to be real life problems in TH's game anyway since he caught over 40 passes in his second season when Killdrive used him as a receiver and blitz pick-up issues were not a complaint about Henry at all the last two years until folks began looking for reasons to call for WM (who like any young RB had his own blitz pick-up adventures earlier this season). As the season went on the Bledsoe's sack numbers went down but WM blitz pick-up expertise did not appear to be the main or much at all of the reason for the drop in sack numbers. i think the drop in QB sacks came because:

 

1. WM does get a lot of credit for the drop in sacks but rather than his skill at blitz pickup or a TH problem in this area, WM simply showed a great ability to run wide and to use the stiff-arm effectively blitzers had to hesitate a second to make sure that WM wasn't running wide while with TH they would simply come as they were likely to fill a hole if he was running up the middle or if he did go wide if TH hesistated at all they could catch him in pursuit while WM might be gone. This issue speaks more to the strengths of WM rather than a particular problem with Henry as his two years of great production as a runner are not lessened by him not being as good as WM.

 

2. The OL did get a lot better having JMac coaching instead of Vinky and Ruel. This was a far larger cause of the lower sack #s than any blitz pick-up issues.

 

3. Clements ran a far better offense than Killdrive. Clements even made great use of Bledsoe as a runner on plays such as the fake QB sneak and the pitch to WM for a TD and a few QB draws by Bledsoe. Clements realized that just because Bledsoe is not a good runner, this doesn't mean you never run him at all. The threat of Bledsoe puicking up 6 yards or so on a 2nd and 10 took away this down as a definite blitz down for the LBs.

 

I think the complaints about TH as a pass catcher stem from some definite drops by him on a few plays last year, but again the drops happen to all players and was never an extraordinary issue as they were with a player like Reed and the complaints like the run blitz issue seem overblown to me.

[Bill from NYC]

Look folks are talking about this because AZ and TD have donethe same thing which is to give both TH and Shelton the right to seek a deal.

 

The positions the players play make sense for both teams as the Bills stand to lose an LT to FA and because the starting RB at AZ has retired.

 

The cap exchange makes sense because both Shelton and TH are under contract in '05 and for whatever reason AZ has decided they can handle the accelerated bonus of Shelton on their cap.

 

Does this trade make sense for either or both teams? Yes, if they feel they get approrpiate value in exchange.

 

I think most Bills fans would happily see TD give up some future draft choices in addition to TH in order to get this deal done.  In order to get this deal the key thing for TD to do right now is to sing Henry's praises and pump up his value.

 

I would think even those who judge TH to be dreck would endorse this strategy merely as a mechanism to get rid of Henry.

 

I have no problem with us singing TH's praises and us giving up some speculative future draft picks to get a recent starting LT at a cost of $3 million per year.  I don't see why any Bills fan would have a problem with this.

 

Is this a good deal for AZ? I hope they think so.

 

The biggest question I would have about TH is that he has been hurt a number of times in his brief career.  The good news is that when he got a fracture before he showed great toughness in playing through it and still being productive for the Bills.

 

It appears that any injury problems he had last year and his failure to produce through the injury or at a starter RB level at all last year may have had as much to do with the Bills obviously having given up on him for WM.

 

Fan complaints on TSW that he can't catch or blitz-pick-up are fortunately ignored for the most part as the usual fan blathering and do not seem to be real life problems in TH's game anyway since he caught over 40 passes in his second season when Killdrive used him as a receiver and blitz pick-up issues were not a complaint about Henry at all the last two years until folks began looking for reasons to call for WM (who like any young RB had his own blitz pick-up adventures earlier this season). As the season went on the Bledsoe's sack numbers went down but WM blitz pick-up expertise did not appear to be the main or much at all of the reason for the drop in sack numbers.  i think the drop in QB sacks came because:

 

1. WM does get a lot of credit for the drop in sacks but rather than his skill at blitz pickup or a TH problem in this area, WM simply showed a great ability to run wide and to use the stiff-arm effectively blitzers had to hesitate a second to make sure that WM wasn't running wide while with TH they would simply come as they were likely to fill a hole if he was running up the middle or if he did go wide if TH hesistated at all they could catch him in pursuit while WM might be gone.  This issue speaks more to the strengths of WM rather than a particular problem with Henry as his two years of great production as a runner are not lessened by him not being as good as WM.

 

2. The OL did get a lot better having JMac coaching instead of Vinky and Ruel.  This was a far larger cause of the lower sack #s than any blitz pick-up issues.

 

3. Clements ran a far better offense than Killdrive.  Clements even made great use of Bledsoe as a runner on plays such as the fake QB sneak and the pitch to WM for a TD and a few QB draws by Bledsoe.  Clements realized that just because Bledsoe is not a good runner, this doesn't mean you never run him at all.  The threat of Bledsoe puicking up 6 yards or so on a 2nd and 10 took away this down as a definite blitz down for the LBs.

 

I think the complaints about TH as a pass catcher stem from some definite drops by him on a few plays last year, but again the drops happen to all players and was never an extraordinary issue as they were with a player like Reed and the complaints like the run blitz issue seem overblown to me.

233655[/snapback]

 

Nonsense. Look at the Bills W/L record with Henry as a starter. Bledsoe was sacked well over 100 times in his first 2 seasons. This number would have been smaller if TH was smart enough or even cared enough to pick up blitzers but he isn't and he doesn't.

When TH was rushing for good numbers he was fumbling the football away to opponents of the Buffalo Bills. He cost us Drew's very first game in Buffalo vs the jests.

The only thing he ever did well was run. He sucks at every other phase of football and last year he couldn't even do that, whereas he was sliding on his ass in front of gaping holes.

FFs, your expectations are WAY too high in terms of what compensation we will receive for this bumbling clod. WAY to high.

[Snorom]

How does having Damion help?  Shelton is under contract.  Arizona is going to trade him where they get the most for him. 

 

Personally I would give up a first rounder next year for him, and hell give Travis to them, just to get rid of him.

233440[/snapback]

 

1st of all Daimon Shelton is a RB that played for the Bills last season.

 

2nd of all, L.J. Shelton has consistently been penalized and gives up occasional sacks. I would not trade a #1 for him. However I see no problem about attempting to trade for him with TH.

 

3rd. You cannot be serious about the giving TH away thing or are you ??? TH is worth something to someone, and that someone could very well be the Bills as a back up.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Nonsense. Look at the Bills W/L record with Henry as a starter. Bledsoe was sacked well over 100 times in his first 2 seasons. This number would have been smaller if TH was smart enough or even cared enough to pick up blitzers but he isn't and he doesn't.

When TH was rushing for good numbers he was fumbling the football away to opponents of the Buffalo Bills. He cost us Drew's very first game in Buffalo vs the jests.

The only thing he ever did well was run. He sucks at every other phase of football and last year he couldn't even do that, whereas he was sliding on his ass in front of gaping holes.

FFs, your expectations are WAY too high in terms of what compensation we will receive for this bumbling clod. WAY to high.

233733[/snapback]

 

 

I know, I know, in terms of your disdain for TH.

 

However, while my view is certainly arguable I think it is far better than nonsense:

 

1. Do you attribute all or even a major portion of the Bills reduction in sacks to better blitz pick-up by WM than TH?

 

I do not think one can discount the role that:

 

A. WM's addition to the offense and subtraction from the opponents ability to pass rush because he is a more effective outside runner than TH in terms of fewer sacks.

B. The OL improving by leaps and bounds under JMac compared to Vinky/Ruel.

C. Clements making far better use of Bledsoe as a runner than Killdrive.

 

Do you deny that these three things happened and that they had a significant impact on the stat you often rely on to indict TH's blitz pick-up.

 

2. Can you site anything beyond your anecdotal observations and the above stat to even indicate a Henry blitz pick-up issue?

 

I agree that TH is no Thurman Thomas at blitz pick-up, but why was this not harped upon or even identified as a big issue leading to Bledsoe's sack numbers the last couple of years if we must depend on anecdotes? Anecdotaally, it is my sense that WM looked just like a first year player himself in his limited blitz pick-up opportunities the first half of the season and the best thing he had to offer was his development into a tremendous outside rushing threat with one of the best stiff arms I have seen.

 

I would not call your complaints about TH in blitz pick-up nonsense because he needs to get better and has gotten better since some real adventures he had trying to block For Flutie when DF came in late in TH's first game for RJ. However, while your assertions about TH are not nonsense, I find them unsupported by anything but anecdote since the sack number you site is far better explained by the three factors I mentioned rather than WM bein great because he is so good at blitz pickup.

 

2. Again in TH's 4 seasons he produced fine pass catching numbers as a rookie, very good pass catching numbers in his second year when Kevin Killdrive and Bledsoe has the O humming and pedestrian numbers as a receiver his third year when out entire O laid an egg and last year when WM sent him to the bench.

 

How do you explain the Bills have enough confidence him to throw the ball to him so he coulf log 3-4 catches a game his second year if he is so horrible as a pass catcher?

 

Again anecdotally he did have some bad drops in 2003 as he an the O went multiple quaters without scoring, but no one identified this as an amount that equalled someone who had a true droppsie problem like Reed. Even Moulds has some worse occurences of drops than Henry but watchers are willing to accept the fact that the QB amd the receiver are going to fail to connect sometimes if the skill player produces elsewhere.

 

Until this year TH produced running the ball. He didn't this year and correcly was benched. However, the case you make of TH being a lousy pass catcher or lousy at blitz pick-up is simply overblown.

 

Even with the fumblitis which was a real problem his seond year rivaling the fumblitis of a player like Tikki Barber. However, like Barber even at his worst the trade-off was worth it and both made the changes necessary to really improve their performance in this area.

 

You are right that we will likely see what he gets traded for when a deal is done. Most likely I am happy to depend on TD raping a potential partner in a deal rather than a deal being a declarative statment of how good or bad TH is (do you really think PP was worth a big contract and a first? Trade amounts are not equal to contribution). However, they are an indicator and I am qite comforable that we will get good value for TH,

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Personally I would give up a first rounder next year for him, and hell give Travis to them, just to get rid of him.

Now I know you're SERIOUSLY on crack. A 1st rounder for Shelton? Sorry no way in hell. I'd say an even-up trade for Shelton with Henry is reasonable, and the only reason I'd trade for Shelton is because HOPEFULLY McNally can teach him properly and HOPEFULLY Daimon can keep him focused and working hard.

[Bill from NYC]

I know, I know, in terms of your disdain for TH.

 

However, while my view is certainly arguable I think it is far better than nonsense:

 

1. Do you attribute all or even a major portion of the Bills reduction in sacks to better blitz pick-up by WM than TH?

 

I do not think one can discount the role that:

 

A. WM's addition to the offense and subtraction from the opponents ability to pass rush because he is a more effective outside runner than TH in terms of fewer sacks.

B. The OL improving by leaps and bounds under JMac compared to Vinky/Ruel.

C. Clements making far better use of Bledsoe as a runner than Killdrive.

 

Do you deny that these three things happened and that they had a significant impact on the stat you often rely on to indict TH's blitz pick-up.

 

2. Can you site anything beyond your anecdotal observations and the above stat to even indicate a Henry blitz pick-up issue?

 

I agree that TH is no Thurman Thomas at blitz pick-up, but why was this not harped upon or even identified as a big issue leading to Bledsoe's sack numbers the last couple of years if we must depend on anecdotes?  Anecdotaally, it is my sense that WM looked just like a first year player himself in his limited blitz pick-up opportunities the first half of the season and the best thing he had to offer was his development into a tremendous outside rushing threat with one of the best stiff arms I have seen.

 

I would not call your complaints about TH in blitz pick-up nonsense because he needs to get better and has gotten better since some real adventures he had trying to block For Flutie when DF came in late in TH's first game for RJ.  However, while your assertions about TH are not nonsense, I find them unsupported by anything but anecdote since the sack number you site is far better explained by the three factors I mentioned rather than WM bein great because he is so good at blitz pickup.

 

2. Again in TH's 4 seasons he produced fine pass catching numbers as a rookie, very good pass catching numbers in his second year when Kevin Killdrive and Bledsoe has the O humming and pedestrian numbers as a receiver his third year when out entire O laid an egg and last year when WM sent him to the bench.

 

How do you explain the Bills have enough confidence him to throw the ball to him so he coulf log 3-4 catches a game his second year if he is so horrible as a pass catcher?

 

Again anecdotally he did have some bad drops in 2003 as he an the O went multiple quaters without scoring, but no one identified this as an amount that equalled someone who had a true droppsie problem like Reed.  Even Moulds has some worse occurences of drops than Henry but watchers are willing to accept the fact that the QB amd the receiver are going to fail to connect sometimes if the skill player produces elsewhere.

 

Until this year TH produced running the ball.  He didn't this year and correcly was benched.  However, the case you make of TH being a lousy pass catcher or lousy at blitz pick-up is simply overblown.

 

Even with the fumblitis which was a real problem his seond year rivaling the fumblitis of a player like Tikki Barber.  However, like Barber even at his worst the trade-off was worth it and both made the changes necessary to really improve their performance in this area.

 

You are right that we will likely see what he gets traded for when a deal is done.  Most likely I am happy to depend on TD raping a potential partner in a deal rather than a deal being a declarative statment of how good or bad TH is (do you really think PP was worth a big contract and a first?  Trade amounts are not equal to contribution).  However, they are an indicator and I am qite comforable that we will get good value for TH,

233899[/snapback]

 

1) No. Not ALL. Not even a "major portion," but even if saidportion was....to name a number, 15 out of more than 100 plus, my guess is that this cost the Bills at least one win, probably more.

 

2) FFS, look at the numbers and the game films. I make the serious assertion that TH is not smart enough to figure out WHO to block. If he could figure out assignments, and cared, yes, he is probably strong enough to block blitzing opponents. This imo is a moot point.

 

2A ) Gilbride. He was an idiot. He called pass after pass and opposing defenses wisely attacked Drew. Therefore, there were many times where TH was unattended. Centers put up some numbers due to the same situation.

 

The bottom line is that the Bills will be a much better football team the day this bad player exits the great reigon of WNY.

[VABills]

Now I know you're SERIOUSLY on crack.  A 1st rounder for Shelton?  Sorry no way in hell.  I'd say an even-up trade for Shelton with Henry is reasonable, and the only reason I'd trade for Shelton is because HOPEFULLY McNally can teach him properly and HOPEFULLY Daimon can keep him focused and working hard.

233939[/snapback]

Well we won't have long to wait, couple more weeks and we should find out what the deal is on each. There is no savings to wait until 6/1 if traded so both will be gone early in the process to get teams prepared for the draft needs.

[Pete]

LOVE IT!Make the deal and resign Jennings- Move Jonas to center or guard

[CosmicBills]

LOVE IT!Make the deal and resign Jennings- Move Jonas to center or guard

234052[/snapback]

 

Don't you think Shelton would be better at G? JJ is more quick/athletic, better able to handle the speed rushers while Shelton is bigger and nastier, a better fit inside.

 

Personally I would LOVE to see the line look like this:

 

Jonas (LT) Shelton (LG) Teague © CV (RG) Williams (RT)

 

That would be PERFECT...

 

of course, I still don't think the trade is likely. But dreaming is what this time of year is for!