JP-era Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 How about Reggie Hayward, Den 6' 5" 270, 25 yeras old 8.5 sacks in 2003, 11 in 2004. Raheem Brock, Ind 6'4" 270, 26 years old, 6 sacks in 2004 Darren Howard, NO 6' 3" 275, 28 years old, 11 sacks in 2004 I like Hayward ALOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 I am thinking that DE is one of the last positions that TD will pursue. We are young and even deep at this position, and DEs cost almost as much as LTs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP-era Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 I am thinking that DE is one of the last positions that TD will pursue. We are young and even deep at this position, and DEs cost almost as much as LTs. 233096[/snapback] I agree with you because TD has made such an effort to get DE's from the draft. But, NONE of the guys we have really have shown they are double-digit sack guys and I dont see us beating NE without getting to Tom Brady. If Tom has time, he will eat you alive. The Jets and Miami have had success against NE when they rush Tom hard and get to him. Both the Jets and Fins have better pas rushers than we do. If we want to win the division we need to get a sure fire pass rusher to get to Tom. I still want us to spend big money on a LT, Im NOW leaning more toward Tra Thomas than Walter Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 How about Reggie Hayward, Den 6' 5" 270, 25 yeras old 8.5 sacks in 2003, 11 in 2004. Raheem Brock, Ind 6'4" 270, 26 years old, 6 sacks in 2004 Darren Howard, NO 6' 3" 275, 28 years old, 11 sacks in 2004 I like Hayward ALOT! 233087[/snapback] way down on the priority list.......well behind LT, LG, DT, CB, and backup RB........i don't think we'll add a first tier DE...........schobel and kelsey will be the starters again next year........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 I agree, DE isn't a high priority, especially with Kelsay's development... other areas like Nate's extension, JP's back-up, & the OL need to be addressed first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 i like aaron schobel and chris kelsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soljc Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 way down on the priority list.......well behind LT, LG, DT, CB, and backup RB........i don't think we'll add a first tier DE...........schobel and kelsey will be the starters again next year........ 233104[/snapback] agreed, although i think we need a CB much more than a DT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 I agree, DE isn't a high priority, especially with Kelsay's development...other areas like Nate's extension, JP's back-up, & the OL need to be addressed first. 233162[/snapback] I cannot disagree that this is down on our priority list because first we need to get some clarity as to how much cap room we can manufacture (significantly more if Bledsoe restructures and stays) and then second we need to see what the market looks like so we can make intelligent purchases with cap room we have (my sense is that TD has a pretty good idea of how these items will play out and alternative plans depending on how they play out. Even in the best cases for these two items, we probably will look to the OL first and resigning our own before shopping at DE. However, it would be incorrect to say that reserve DE is not a significant need for this team as: 1. We went with only 3 DEs much of last year and caught a big break when all of them not only suffered no serious injuries we would have trouble replacing but not even many nicks that allowed them to play but limited their effectiveness. 2. There is potential that Kelsay can still develop into a pass rusher who draws double-teams when he is the point of attack and most plays, but we do not have the double-digit sack threat we want at DE. Raheem Brock is an interesting UFA (I assume he made your list because that is his status). At 6 sacks and playing for the cap strapped Colts he should be gettable at a reasonable price. Further, I think the DE we are looking for is a designated pass rusher in the Jim Jeffcoat mold so we're not looking for a fully rounded player, just someone who can bring it on obvious passing downs who would be doing his job by creating pressures as much as sacks. A former sack master on the backside of his career like a Hugh Douglas may be more the type of player we can afford who can do the job. However, Douglas would need to go through a personality transformation similar to what Sam Adams has gone through to turn from being an arrogant player who only says me-first to being an arrogant player who demands to play rather than simply pouting a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 1. We went with only 3 DEs much of last year and caught a big break when all of them not only suffered no serious injuries we would have trouble replacing but not even many nicks that allowed them to play but limited their effectiveness. i really don't think carrying 3 DE's is all that uncommon......if you add another one, that just means your hurting your depth at another position....... we do have some flexability with posey as well, given that he can lineup at DE on passing downs........and ritzman is still on the roster and should be more prepared to battle for playing time this year........ 2. There is potential that Kelsay can still develop into a pass rusher who draws double-teams when he is the point of attack and most plays, but we do not have the double-digit sack threat we want at DE. schobel is a pass rush threat that we want at DE........so he didn't put up double digits this year -- big deal........the point is his is putting pressure on the QB consistantly and kelsay will continue to improve along the same lines that schobel has.........both these guys have their best days in front of them, not behind them........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soljc Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 schobel is a pass rush threat that we want at DE........so he didn't put up double digits this year -- big deal........the point is his is putting pressure on the QB consistantly and kelsay will continue to improve along the same lines that schobel has.........both these guys have their best days in front of them, not behind them........ 233281[/snapback] Schobel putting pressure on the QB constantly??? I beg to differ. Schobel is a decent pass rushing DE, but he gets abused on the run and is totally ineffective against good LTs. I think his best compliment is that he's got a "high motor", which translated means "he ain't got much talent." Saying Kelsay will continue to improve sounds nice, but only time will tell if that's correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 I am thinking that DE is one of the last positions that TD will pursue. We are young and even deep at this position, and DEs cost almost as much as LTs. 233096[/snapback] bill - i really do think that every position is a priority assuming the player under examination can improve the performance of the team. not to belabor a point, but just look at the pats - in the past four seasons, they've drafted 3 DTs in the first round (warren, wilfork, seymour) and have made relatively big signings (traylor, ted w). they've also drafted 2 tight ends in the first round the last three seasons (watson, graham) along with signing christian fauria. in my view, if a guy fits the program in a special way, you go after him even if you're decently stocked at the position (see mcgahee, willis). having said all of this, darren howard for NO is supposed to be an excellent player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Schobel putting pressure on the QB constantly??? I beg to differ. Schobel is a decent pass rushing DE, but he gets abused on the run and is totally ineffective against good LTs. I think his best compliment is that he's got a "high motor", which translated means "he ain't got much talent." Saying Kelsay will continue to improve sounds nice, but only time will tell if that's correct. 233289[/snapback] i never said constantly, i said CONSISTANTLY.......two different words, two completely different meanings...... ineffective against good LT's? what about his game vs. ogden, who is argueably the best LT in the league....... as far as his run defense goes, he has improved a ton in that regard and i think it's a far cry to say he is "abused".......it's funny how guys get knocked early in their career for something about their game and fans fail to notice the improvements......the guy put up 73 tackles this past season, which was 2nd most among DE's.......he isn't a weakness in the run game anymore........... i am quite confident that kelsey will continue to improve as he gets more comfortable in the defense, just like schobel has........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 i never said constantly, i said CONSISTANTLY.......two different words, two completely different meanings...... ineffective against good LT's? what about his game vs. ogden, who is argueably the best LT in the league....... as far as his run defense goes, he has improved a ton in that regard and i think it's a far cry to say he is "abused".......it's funny how guys get knocked early in their career for something about their game and fans fail to notice the improvements......the guy put up 73 tackles this past season, which was 2nd most among DE's.......he isn't a weakness in the run game anymore........... i am quite confident that kelsey will continue to improve as he gets more comfortable in the defense, just like schobel has........ 233303[/snapback] I think we did escape a risky situation last year going with only 3 DEs. I am not up on the depth charts of all teams, but it certainly it strikes me as not unusual at all for teams to go with 4 DEs and have a back-up for each DL position. If they do go with only 3 DEs, then they quite clearly have a DT who can flip-flop and play both positions (something the Bills do not have because our DTs are built along the PW SA mold of being big run stoppers as they have even had Edwards put on his listed weight to man the middle rather than have the speed body to go consistently wide). Failing having a clear swing man on the DL, a team can line up an LB at DE rushing from the outside and the Bills have used Posey in this way, but again my recollection is that this occurs on obvious passing downs and Posey does not have the weight or strength to consistenly take on LTs or RTs against the rush. I thinl Denney has gotten a bum rap from many on TSW because his falings as a pass rusher are clear and he ain't one. However, Denney has shown great athleticism for a DE and has tremendous wingspan from his big arms and height that he has learned how to use well in the run-blitz we run. Denney saved us a roster spot last year by being able to back-up both the RE and LE spots. He has shown greater strength than Schobel against the run and though he is a lesser pass rusher than Kelsay and has less persistence than Schobel his wingspan and mobility has made him very effective in the shallow zone coverage against the pass that a DE must have to allow the LBs to blitz in th run blitz. We might luck out again going with 3 DEs in 2005 or Ritzman was kept for some reason and maybe he will develop, but if Schobel, OR Kelsy, OR Denney were to get nicked and go down we would be down to only 2 DEs and the waiver wire would be the next stop. 1. Do you see one of our DTs as a swing man capable of manning the outside? 2. I think Posey has gotten a bad rap from those who want to cut him, but do you see him as also being able to man the DE spot consistently or as our first choice? 3. Do you see no risk with only going with three DEs if you agree with these two points? I think we have a need to get a Jim Jeffcoat level player in FA or to draft yet anotherDE if we see a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stussy109 Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 How about this trade??? Provided Indy can't resign the Edge, how about we ship out Travis and this years 2nd, maybe a conditional pick from 06 for Dwight Freeney??? I was amazed at his ability to abuse The Ravens Jonathan Ogden. He was beating their double teams left and right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 way down on the priority list.......well behind LT, LG, DT, CB, and backup RB........i don't think we'll add a first tier DE...........schobel and kelsey will be the starters again next year........ 233104[/snapback] How folks cannot consider a quality Tight End a priority at this point is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Days Lois & Clark Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Courtney Brown may become available from the Browns I think that he has just had some bad luck there. It seams as if nearly everyone there under Butch Davis would have some injury or another. I think a fresh start with a new team would do him good plus he might not cost much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 I agree with you because TD has made such an effort to get DE's from the draft. But, NONE of the guys we have really have shown they are double-digit sack guys and I dont see us beating NE without getting to Tom Brady. If Tom has time, he will eat you alive. The Jets and Miami have had success against NE when they rush Tom hard and get to him. Both the Jets and Fins have better pas rushers than we do. If we want to win the division we need to get a sure fire pass rusher to get to Tom. I still want us to spend big money on a LT, Im NOW leaning more toward Tra Thomas than Walter Jones. 233098[/snapback] The best way to beat an opposing offense is by building a decent OL and controlling the clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 I agree with you because TD has made such an effort to get DE's from the draft. But, NONE of the guys we have really have shown they are double-digit sack guys and I dont see us beating NE without getting to Tom Brady. If Tom has time, he will eat you alive. The Jets and Miami have had success against NE when they rush Tom hard and get to him. Both the Jets and Fins have better pas rushers than we do. If we want to win the division we need to get a sure fire pass rusher to get to Tom. I still want us to spend big money on a LT, Im NOW leaning more toward Tra Thomas than Walter Jones. 233098[/snapback] the only way to pressure quickly enough is up the middle. Due to Fat Pat's age and weight, Bills may decide to go with Edwards and Anderson next to Adams. Wilfork would have been a great replacement for Williams. The DT's have to penetrate and force Brady out of his rhythm. Wasting more money and picks on DEs is not the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 1. Do you see one of our DTs as a swing man capable of manning the outside?2. I think Posey has gotten a bad rap from those who want to cut him, but do you see him as also being able to man the DE spot consistently or as our first choice? 3. Do you see no risk with only going with three DEs if you agree with these two points? 233366[/snapback] 1) no, i don't see any of our DT's as swingmen (although denney can swing to DT in a pinch) 2) not on running downs, but he can defantiely hold his own on passing downs and could see that role increased if need be 3) i see some risk, but obviously it didn't hurt us in '04 like i said, if you want to carry another DE on the roster, that means someone else gets the chop......so to me your just "robbing peter to pay paul".......would it create some better balance? possibly, but i just don't see it as a big priority........why go out and spend on a quality DE if he's never going to see the field and is just insurance? do you want to cut a guy like fast freddie to carry "insurance" at the DE spot? what about a great special teamer like wire? a project guy like peters? depth from the o-line? someone has to go....... I think we have a need to get a Jim Jeffcoat level player in FA or to draft yet anotherDE if we see a good one. i would have no problem adding some competition for ritzman, but i'm quite content with our first 3 DE's and think we have bigger needs to look at........a 2nd day pick would give ritzman a push, but i doubt we'll look at free agent DE's or on the 1st day of the draft.......we have invested in schobel, kelsey, and denney and it's time to run with what we have........ but don't count out ritzman yet -- i think he's going to have a great camp next year........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 How folks cannot consider a quality Tight End a priority at this point is beyond me. 233392[/snapback] i would also rank TE above DE (there isn't much I wouldn't) -- i just don't think TE is all that high on TD's list.........he doesn't seem to want to invest much in the position.......hopefully free agency this year changes that, seeing the injury concerns we have at the position........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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