thebandit27 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 agree people should be delighted if watkins elevates his game to moulds level, and starts winning some jump ball contests for a change. Since this has become the crutch for your argument, why don't you point out which jump ball opportunities he was afforded during the season? I can remember one: against GB on a horribly under-thrown sideline pattern on which Sammy had beaten the coverage by a good 2 yards. Any others, or are you going to fall back on "trust me" like you did with the "too many drops" argument that was flat out proven wrong with numbers? Oh and by the way, what were Moulds' numbers his rookie year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 All things equal, sure. But we gave up 2 firsts to take a guy wth similar talent (if we are lucky) intead of just picking the guy that was perhaps just as good (and as we are seeing probably much better). Sammy will be good but he was never 2 first round picks better than ODB jr. I just can't believe they watched his pre-game routine and then decided they thought Sammy was worth it. Watch that video, it's nuts If you are going to be this precise, you should at least do the proper accounting of how much Sammie cost. He cost one 1st rounder and a 4th rounder, not two first rounders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 If you are going to be this precise, you should at least do the proper accounting of how much Sammie cost. He cost one 1st rounder and a 4th rounder, not two first rounders. Yep. It's Sammy > ODB + first rounder. Net change of one first round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 If you are going to be this precise, you should at least do the proper accounting of how much Sammie cost. He cost one 1st rounder and a 4th rounder, not two first rounders. The Bills traded their first round picks in 2014 and 2015 and a 4th rounder in 2015 to Cleveland for their 2014 first. So 2 firsts and a 4th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 The Bills traded their first round picks in 2014 and 2015 and a 4th rounder in 2015 to Cleveland for their 2014 first. So 2 firsts and a 4th They swapped... To say they lost 2 first round picks means they didn't draft Sammy. 1 first and 1 4th... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Oh geezus. Back to this again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 The Bills traded their first round picks in 2014 and 2015 and a 4th rounder in 2015 to Cleveland for their 2014 first. So 2 firsts and a 4th No. I've had enough of this argument, or spin, or whatever. Quite enough. This statement, "Sammy will be good but he was never 2 first round picks better than ODB jr." is wrong. ODB cost a first rounder, and Sammy cost 2. Net difference of one. Not two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Oh geezus. Back to this again. Nah only need to say it once any reply by them won't matter b.c now they have the answer and if they don't use it just makes them look foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 They swapped... To say they lost 2 first round picks means they didn't draft Sammy. 1 first and 1 4th... you need to use a pick to draft him. so it cost them 2 firsts (2014 and 2015). semantics ftw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 you need to use a pick to draft him. so it cost them 2 firsts (2014 and 2015). semantics ftw See this guy now looks foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Sammy = 2 firsts and a 4th ODB jr = 1 first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Sammy = 2 firsts and a 4th ODB jr = 1 first Then why did you say this? Sammy will be good but he was never 2 first round picks better than ODB jr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 you need to use a pick to draft him. so it cost them 2 firsts (2014 and 2015). semantics ftw So the Giants "gave up" a 1st for Beckham too, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 So the Giants "gave up" a 1st for Beckham too, right? yes they had a 1st round pick. they can use it on Beckham, they can draft someone else, they can trade it. so the cost of Beckham was 1 first round pick. he wasn't free Sammy on the other hand cost 1 first + another first + a 4th. 2 firsts and a 4th if you are keeping score at home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 you need to use a pick to draft him. so it cost them 2 firsts (2014 and 2015). semantics ftw It's not semantics and this has been pointed out many times before. You said, Sammy will be good but he was never 2 first round picks better than ODB jr Under your definition, that's 2 first round picks Bills gave up in your world, as opposed to the 1 first round pick they gave up in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 You guys don't need to keep correcting him... Just ignore and laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 It's not semantics and this has been pointed out many times before. You said, Sammy will be good but he was never 2 first round picks better than ODB jr Under your definition, that's 2 first round picks Bills gave up in your world, as opposed to the 1 first round pick they gave up in real life. nope please see above. every pick has a value Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 It's not semantics and this has been pointed out many times before. You said, Sammy will be good but he was never 2 first round picks better than ODB jr Under your definition, that's 2 first round picks Bills gave up in your world, as opposed to the 1 first round pick they gave up in real life. Maye he's confusing semantics for subtraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Maye he's confusing semantics for subtraction. I guess Common Core is working its magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 the Browns were picking 4th. the Bills were picking 8th. The Bills traded their first at 8 and next year's first and fourth for the Browns' first pick at 4. you guys are saying the Bills didn't trade their first last year? so the Bills picked 4th and 8th? i guess i missed our 2nd first round draft pick last year. who was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 the Browns were picking 4th. the Bills were picking 8th. The Bills traded their first at 8 and next year's first and fourth for the Browns' first pick at 4. you guys are saying the Bills didn't trade their first last year? so the Bills picked 4th and 8th? i guess i missed our 2nd first round draft pick last year. who was it? 1) The Bills traded the 9th pick, not the 8th. 2) If your original statement was the Sammy is not 2 1sts better than Beckham, you deserve to be corrected for that. They traded ONE 1st and ONE 4th to move up. Case closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 The trade was reckless. It was the day of the draft and remains so after this season. Two biggest reasons were well known the day of the draft. No franchise QB on the roster and the draft was DEEP at WR. Not to mention, you don't trade a 1st and 4th and use your own 1st for a WR. I still think this trade was a desperate attempt by Brandon/Whaley to win in 2014 to save their jobs with the new owner. In the end, they didn't win, the trade was proven to be a bad one and they saved their jobs anyway. So, all is well that ends well for Russ and Doug and us fans suffer as a result. UGH ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) The trade was reckless. It was the day of the draft and remains so after this season. Two biggest reasons were well known the day of the draft. No franchise QB on the roster and the draft was DEEP at WR. Not to mention, you don't trade a 1st and 4th and use your own 1st for a WR. I still think this trade was a desperate attempt by Brandon/Whaley to win in 2014 to save their jobs with the new owner. In the end, they didn't win, the trade was proven to be a bad one and they saved their jobs anyway. So, all is well that ends well for Russ and Doug and us fans suffer as a result. UGH ! The trade worked perfectly since they got the guy they wanted. What exactly are you suffering from? Edited January 26, 2015 by Beef Jerky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 The trade worked perfectly since they got the guy they wanted. What exactly are you suffering from? I'd rather have my 1st and 4th picks this year to fill the holes we have (e.g. OG, TE or make a trade with pick for a decent QB) and still have selected Beckham. As for suffering, the team was once again mediocre and missed the playoffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I still think this trade was a desperate attempt by Brandon/Whaley to win in 2014 to save their jobs with the new owner. In the end, they didn't win, the trade was proven to be a bad one 9 wins 7 losses. I'm confused by these statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 1) The Bills traded the 9th pick, not the 8th. 2) If your original statement was the Sammy is not 2 1sts better than Beckham, you deserve to be corrected for that. They traded ONE 1st and ONE 4th to move up. Case closed. 1. That's true, I guess Cleveland traded with Minnesota to move back up to 8. 2. Sammy was drafted before Beckham. So the Bills used a 1st and next yr's 1st and 4th. So they thought Sammy was better by that total value (2 firsts and a fourth). Read any publication. They all say the cost of the Sammy trade was 2 firsts and a fourth. I understand what you guys are saying that "it only cost 1 extra 1st rounder" but that is not how it is reported because logistically they needed to give up their pick at 9 to move up to 4. Get it? http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000348048/article/bills-grab-sammy-watkins-after-trading-up-to-no-4 "The Bills traded the No. 9 overall pick as well as first- and fourth-round picks in 2015 to the Cleveland Browns to move up and nab Watkins at No. 4 overall." http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/08/bills-trade-up-with-browns-take-sammy-watkins/ "The Bills paid a huge price to move up from No. 9. In addition to giving up the ninth pick, Buffalo surrendered its No. 1 selection in 2015, as well as a fourth-rounder in 2015, to take Watkins, regarded as one of the draft’s top offensive playmakers." Anyhow, the point is I thought they were pretty close talent-wise going in to the draft with a slight edge to Sammy. I would have been happy with either guy. But that was before I saw how Beckham warmed up before every game. They never showed that before "the catch." If our scouts saw that routine and still made that move to pick Sammy then shame on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) 9 wins 7 losses. I'm confused by these statements. Your expectations are way too low !! This is what 15 years of losing does to a fan base. Happy with 9-7 and no playoffs ? NO WAY ! MAD AS HELL Edited January 26, 2015 by TXBILLSFAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) Your expectations are way too low !! This is what 15 years of losing does to a fan base. Happy with 9-7 and no playoffs ? NO WAY ! MAD AS HELL And let's face it, the "winning record" tagline is a joke, pats gave us that last game. And the 2 game improvement from last year was the result of an even better defense. Offense sucked it Edited January 26, 2015 by JTSP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Your expectations are way too low !! This is what 15 years of losing does to a fan base. Happy with 9-7 and no playoffs ? NO WAY ! MAD AS HELL It's a start. W maroon and half man orton gone we might improve a win or two. Then you can be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Exactly e-ball. Maroon is a douche. It's really too bad we never were able to see Sammy completely healthy. I believe he had three injuries throughout the year, but still kept playing. Hopefully, he'll come in healthy and well conditioned for next year. Then the analysts will fawn over him like they. Did with Beckham after "the catch". I have to admit that was the most athletic catch I've ever seen, and I've been watching football for over 40 years. Beckham Jr. wasn't healthy all season: http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/12230342/odell-beckham-jr-new-york-giants-affected-hamstring-injury No one's arguing Sammy isn't a good player or won't improve. But they both were dinged up and Beckham managed to produce more. Sure, some of that's QB play/offensive scheme/whatever. I guess the bigger issue was the Bills traded up to select a fine WR in a WR heavy draft when they didn't have a QB on the roster at the time who could get him the ball. That speaks to something greater than the players or coaches on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) It's a start. W maroon and half man orton gone we might improve a win or two. Then you can be happy. I'd be happy and SURPRISED ! Without a QB, it will be extremely difficult if not impossible for this team to legitimately compete for the Super Bowl. If you don't have a franchise QB, you don't trade future first round picks for anything but a QB, that's just Whaley and Brandon being reckless. Edited January 26, 2015 by TXBILLSFAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 agree people should be delighted if watkins elevates his game to moulds level, and starts winning some jump ball contests for a change. Would this be the Eric Moulds of the 1st two years or the Eric Moulds when they actually started using him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Since this has become the crutch for your argument, why don't you point out which jump ball opportunities he was afforded during the season? I can remember one: against GB on a horribly under-thrown sideline pattern on which Sammy had beaten the coverage by a good 2 yards. Any others, or are you going to fall back on "trust me" like you did with the "too many drops" argument that was flat out proven wrong with numbers?Oh and by the way, what were Moulds' numbers his rookie year? JTSP won't asnwer you, bandit. Not only because he can't repond to your questions without admitting he's wrong, but more important,y he won't answer because it's a desperate attempt at humor and/or a plea for attention. He doesn't believe what he's saying about sammy or ODB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 yes they had a 1st round pick. they can use it on Beckham, they can draft someone else, they can trade it. so the cost of Beckham was 1 first round pick. he wasn't free Sammy on the other hand cost 1 first + another first + a 4th. 2 firsts and a 4th if you are keeping score at home Gonna be well worth it the Browns were picking 4th. the Bills were picking 8th. The Bills traded their first at 8 and next year's first and fourth for the Browns' first pick at 4. you guys are saying the Bills didn't trade their first last year? so the Bills picked 4th and 8th? i guess i missed our 2nd first round draft pick last year. who was it? Kdiggz Technically part of what you are saying is true......it is the "two first round picks better" First....its ignorant because ODB is not even close to "two first round picks better" even based on this years stats Second....its ignorant because players careers are not decided on one year of play. JTSP won't asnwer you, bandit. Not only because he can't repond to your questions without admitting he's wrong, but more important,y he won't answer because it's a desperate attempt at humor and/or a plea for attention. He doesn't believe what he's saying about sammy or ODB. I have always wondered that about JTSP....he keeps spewing the same crap....people call him out on it....he just moves onto the next thread and spews more crap without defending his initital crap spew I believe that is called Spamming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhDozeBills Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 OBJ is a beast. Whatever team they play on, whatever QB is throwing to them, I could care less. After one NFL season, I can clearly say OBJ is a flat out stud and may go down as one of the best of all time when it's all said and done. Not to take anything away from Sammy as he had a great rookie year as well, but no question after year one OBJ is more dynamic. Three to five years from now, who knows what will happen. As for getting on Whaley for giving up a 1st and 4th to get what looks to be the 2nd or 3rd best WR in the draft, debate all you want. I think it's clear just about every NFL team had Sammy the #1 WR on their board, and the Giants even admitted as much. If the Bills didn't make that move, they wouldn't have taken OBJ at #9 and most likely taken Ebron. To me, if not for Sammy, the Bills win 6-7 games this year. It's been awhile since the Bills had a true #1 WR and they took a chance. Time will tell if it was the right move, but I do give Whaley some credit for taking a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Gonna be well worth it Kdiggz Technically part of what you are saying is true......it is the "two first round picks better" First....its ignorant because ODB is not even close to "two first round picks better" even based on this years stats Second....its ignorant because players careers are not decided on one year of play. I have always wondered that about JTSP....he keeps spewing the same crap....people call him out on it....he just moves onto the next thread and spews more crap without defending his initital crap spew I believe that is called Spamming. I was saying that Sammy and ODB are probably equal. Neither was worth trading anything to move up to get one or the other. Nobody knows who will end up being better long term (could still be Sammy) but ODB had a much better rookie year and was good enough for us to stay at 9 to pick him. It's not like if we didn't pick Sammy there were no other good receivers left. There were about 5 other pretty good receivers taken after Sammy and all of the scouts knew that going in. We might have picked the best guy (time will tell) but because of what we had to give up to get him it will never be worth it when there are talented receivers like ODB and Kelvin Benjamin lighting up the league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I'd rather have my 1st and 4th picks this year to fill the holes we have (e.g. OG, TE or make a trade with pick for a decent QB) and still have selected Beckham. As for suffering, the team was once again mediocre and missed the playoffs How many hand gernades between the ears does it take with some of you guys THEY WERE NOT GOING TO PICK BECKHAM.....They were going to take Ebron (who REALLY struggled) and Whaley said as much a a bills backers meeting. So we would not have had Watkins (who even with 3 separate injuries had a fine rookie season) we would have had Ebron.......and we would be looking for a WR, a TE because EBRON looked confused, a QB (with none to be had in this draft) Why is this so hard to understand? OBJ is a beast. Whatever team they play on, whatever QB is throwing to them, I could care less. After one NFL season, I can clearly say OBJ is a flat out stud and may go down as one of the best of all time when it's all said and done. Not to take anything away from Sammy as he had a great rookie year as well, but no question after year one OBJ is more dynamic. Three to five years from now, who knows what will happen. As for getting on Whaley for giving up a 1st and 4th to get what looks to be the 2nd or 3rd best WR in the draft, debate all you want. I think it's clear just about every NFL team had Sammy the #1 WR on their board, and the Giants even admitted as much. If the Bills didn't make that move, they wouldn't have taken OBJ at #9 and most likely taken Ebron. To me, if not for Sammy, the Bills win 6-7 games this year. It's been awhile since the Bills had a true #1 WR and they took a chance. Time will tell if it was the right move, but I do give Whaley some credit for taking a chance. He was a beast except for the 4 games he missed due to injury....you know because he is small Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) 1) The Bills traded the 9th pick, not the 8th. 2) If your original statement was the Sammy is not 2 1sts better than Beckham, you deserve to be corrected for that. They traded ONE 1st and ONE 4th to move up. Case closed. Yeah, case closed. Except not. The Bills gave up three picks. Not two. Three. So many of you try to use two separate verbs here, like they "swapped" this and they "gave up" that. It was one transaction, not two. The amount they traded was the same amount they gave up and the same amount they swapped. All three words have the same meaning here, to relinquish something in a trade. Now in that trade they got back one first. So yeah, the difference was a first and a fourth. To justify this trade, Sammy must be the value of a first and a fourth better than the next best WR in the draft. That's extremely likely to ever happen. But yeah, they traded, gave up and swapped the same three picks, two firsts and a fourth. Saying otherwise is only a desperate attempt to spin the trade to make it look better than it was. OBJ is a beast. Whatever team they play on, whatever QB is throwing to them, I could care less. After one NFL season, I can clearly say OBJ is a flat out stud and may go down as one of the best of all time when it's all said and done. Not to take anything away from Sammy as he had a great rookie year as well, but no question after year one OBJ is more dynamic. Three to five years from now, who knows what will happen. As for getting on Whaley for giving up a 1st and 4th to get what looks to be the 2nd or 3rd best WR in the draft, debate all you want. I think it's clear just about every NFL team had Sammy the #1 WR on their board, and the Giants even admitted as much. If the Bills didn't make that move, they wouldn't have taken OBJ at #9 and most likely taken Ebron. To me, if not for Sammy, the Bills win 6-7 games this year. It's been awhile since the Bills had a true #1 WR and they took a chance. Time will tell if it was the right move, but I do give Whaley some credit for taking a chance. Again, Whaley didn't "give up" a first and a fourth. He gave up two firsts and a fourth. "Give up" means relinquish. He relinquished three picks. In return he got the pick that got him Sammy. As for them picking Ebron, we've heard it a million times. And there's no proof whatsoever. It's just an article of faith among some of you, mostly those desperate to defend this trade. We might indeed have picked Ebron. Or not. We also might have picked Beckham. Or Zack Martin. Or someone else. Edited January 26, 2015 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 How many hand gernades between the ears does it take with some of you guys THEY WERE NOT GOING TO PICK BECKHAM.....They were going to take Ebron (who REALLY struggled) and Whaley said as much a a bills backers meeting. So we would not have had Watkins (who even with 3 separate injuries had a fine rookie season) we would have had Ebron.......and we would be looking for a WR, a TE because EBRON looked confused, a QB (with none to be had in this draft) Why is this so hard to understand? He was a beast except for the 4 games he missed due to injury....you know because he is small So, the defense of the bad trade is that if we didn't make the trade we would have done something even worse ?? Boy, do we need to raise expectations with our fan base !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Yeah, case closed. Except not. When Whaley didn't give up a first and a fourth. He gave up two firsts and a fourth. "Give up" means relinquish. He relinquished three picks. In return he got the pick that got him Sammy. As for them picking Ebron, we've heard it a million times. And there's no proof whatsoever. It's just an article of faith among some of you, mostly those desperate to defend this trade. We might indeed have picked Ebron. Or not. We also might have picked Beckham. Or Zack Martin. Or someone else. ding ding ding! we have a winner!! every player and every pick has a cost and a value. we aren't getting anyone for free. nothing in life is free. basic economics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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