agardin Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I am with you when it comes to coaches not being malleable enough to alter philosophies based on the personnel they actually have. It does raise concerns that Roman tried to convert Kap into pocket passer. Kap has an unbelievable arm and maybe they thought they would give it an honest effort to Manning him but the results were obviously poor. I guess one might side on 'you can't blame them for trying' argument. In most other cases, coaches are impatient and it seems to follow this internal New HC dialog: I got three years to win. Is there a sure fire QB on this roster, no or else I wouldn't have just been hired. I need to go out and get my guy, buy time and then win in a couple of years or else I will be gone. Rinse, repeat until a legit QB turns up on your roster. New coaches, new answers at QB and nary a QB resembling Brady, Rodgers, Luck or Wilson in sight. Bills fans are familiar with program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 The "eye" formation? Really? That's when I stopped reading. People like you top the scale of annoying. It's a message board, late night post. I'm typing fast and getting on with it. "I" Formation. Is that better? How about focus on the content. If you would like to talk X's and O's and not make this English 101, I would happily circle around you like the 90's Bills circled the wagons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 It is such a crap shoot finding an elite QB. There are only five or six in the league at any given time. By elite I mean a QB that can win with average talent around him. I think NFL franchises have to try and build a team that can win with competent QB play and continually try to find that elite QB. The Bills problem is that for the last couple of decades they did neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) It is such a crap shoot finding an elite QB. There are only five or six in the league at any given time. By elite I mean a QB that can win with average talent around him. I think NFL franchises have to try and build a team that can win with competent QB play and continually try to find that elite QB. The Bills problem is that for the last couple of decades they did neither. That's really the point of the thread Chris. I know for myself, I have had the "we need a franchise QB" mindset for probably ten years. I suppose the next best thing to having a franchise QB is having unified system between the HC/OC/DC, that is designed to be competitive if you lack that franchise QB so few people have. I don't think we have ever had such a unified approach since the drought started. The combination of outstanding run game and outstanding defense has won plenty of Super Bowls. Certainly got plenty of teams to the playoffs. A franchise guy would be icing on the cake at this point, but I expect we will make the playoffs next year and we will do it without major changes at QB. It might not be Manuel starting, but somebody without a huge profile or the typical franchise aspirations is what I see happening. Edited January 18, 2015 by KzooMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 That's really the point of the thread Chris. I know for myself, I have had the "we need a franchise QB" mindset for probably ten years. I suppose the next best thing to having a franchise QB is having unified system between the HC/OC/DC, that is designed to be competitive if you lack that franchise QB so few people have. I don't think we have ever had such a unified approach since the drought started. The combination of outstanding run game and outstanding defense has won plenty of Super Bowls. Certainly got plenty of teams to the playoffs. A franchise guy would be icing on the cake at this point, but I expect we will make the playoffs next year and we will do it without major changes at QB. It might not be Manuel starting, but somebody without a huge profile or the typical franchise aspirations is what I see happening. I expect we make the playoffs next year too, but only if Doug makes the right personnel moves. Addressing the O without losing too much on D. If we lose Hughes, searcy, spikes, Wynn and Bryant, ill have my doubts. Although I can't really envision that happening. I trust Doug to make it happen. The OL/TE is crucial in our new offenses. Address them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 That's really the point of the thread Chris. I know for myself, I have had the "we need a franchise QB" mindset for probably ten years. I suppose the next best thing to having a franchise QB is having unified system between the HC/OC/DC, that is designed to be competitive if you lack that franchise QB so few people have. I don't think we have ever had such a unified approach since the drought started. The combination of outstanding run game and outstanding defense has won plenty of Super Bowls. Certainly got plenty of teams to the playoffs. A franchise guy would be icing on the cake at this point, but I expect we will make the playoffs next year and we will do it without major changes at QB. It might not be Manuel starting, but somebody without a huge profile or the typical franchise aspirations is what I see happening. Good post, Kzoo. The fact is, for a team to win it all, so many things have to go right. The one thing that the best teams in the league and the last several Super Bowl winners have had in common is good ownership that doesn't get in the way, good front office working together, good coaching, good players, good defense, very good QBing and a lot of good luck. Everything has to come together at once. And you need a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I guarantee you if Ryan was lucky enough to draft, say an Andrew luck or an Aaron Rodgers, that he would've developed a franchise qb. Conversely if Bill belichick himself had drafted Mark Sanchez and geno Smith, he too would not have developed a franchise qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 People like you top the scale of annoying. It's a message board, late night post. I'm typing fast and getting on with it. "I" Formation. Is that better? How about focus on the content. If you would like to talk X's and O's and not make this English 101, I would happily circle around you like the 90's Bills circled the wagons. And people that think they know everything are equally as annoying. If you were to know everything about x's and o's as you profess, then you most certainly would have known it is "I" formation instead of "eye" formation regardless if it was late at night, early in the morning, hungover, stuck in an airport, have a screaming kid next to you or whatever. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 After we signed Rex Ryan, all my attention shifted to OC. Ryan has never developed a franchise QB and he won’t all of a sudden develop into a sharp offensive mind. What does Ryan bring to the table? Ryan is the best defensive mind in the NFL, which is certainly valuable enough to warrant a HC position. Still, with no QB, his detractors have a point, is the best defensive coach in the league the right fit for a team that needs so much offensive help? A lot of discussion from the introductory Press conference laid out the path this team will take. Ryan said he appreciated Brian Billicks approach, basically said here are the keys; go do what you do best. He was hands off and allowed Ryan to grow the defense under his direction. He said he believes in that same philosophy. The Bills liked Roman, they liked him enough to interview him for the HC. Over and over we heard Ryan say how in sync he is with Roman. Ryan kept saying he wanted to build a bully, Pegula referenced Roman making the statement of being a “nightmare” to play. Hand and hand with the Rex Ryan approach to football is a power running game. It's clear to me Ryan has no problem giving Roman the keys to the offense in the same way Billick gave Ryan the keys to the defense and that's exactly what I expect him to do. I watched a lot of Stanford when Greg Roman was the offensive coordinator. Then you follow Roman to San Francisco and what he implemented there. Stanford ran a pro style run heavy offense under Roman. I often remember 2 and 3 TE sets, a ton of eye formation. They just pounded the ball repeatedly. The 49ers ran a lot of similar personal groupings as far as FB’s and multiple TE’s, but they would often split those players out and motion them into a more normal alignment like the eye formation. Roman’s offensive line concepts are regarded as some of the more complex in the NFL. His run block action simulates spread concepts, but often times manifest themselves into power rushing concepts. We saw the 49ers go to a lot of read option and Pistol formations. In one of his press conferences a few years ago prior to the Super Bowl, Roman glowingly speaks about the Pistol offense and its versatility. What started as a question about Romans ability to develop a franchise QB (this word we keep hearing all the time), ended in a completely different direction. No, I don't believe Roman is best at developing a franchise QB, at the least, QB passing is not his strong suit. That said, he doesn't need to develop a franchise QB to get to the level we want to achieve. Kap is not a franchise QB in a traditional sense, Romans system made his skill set into a very productive QB, so productive it gave the appearance of being a potential franchise guy. But Roman does not care about QB development in the way most OCs cling to it as life or death and having to be thru the air. He values production, namely ground production. He reduces the reads a QB has, he runs an inordinate amount of times, and has a scheme that provides better angled blocking assignments vs defenders compared to his counterparts. Essentially, he provides the most user friendly QB system possible and in that reduces the need for the QB to have to be elite in the passing game. As Ryan is the zen of defense, Roman is one of the top zens of running. Just as Ryan pointed out in the presser, the two have such a perfect blend of style. So perfect, it’s my opinion a franchise QB is not required, nor will that be the profile of this team. We will focus on being the best punch you in the face team on defense, which is a given, and on offense we will do the same. For me that’s exciting. Franchise QB or not, this staff seems to be completely united in playing a demoralizing brand of football. Something I have seen people begging for years for on these forums. Everything you said about Rex being terrible at grooming quarterbacks is meaningless. The coach can't develop a guy if he's not any good. He can only work with what is given to him and he took a bad QB to the AFC championship game twice. Geno isnt a good QB, and doubt he will be under any other coach. Roman saved Alex Smiths career and got a raw Kapernick to the Super Bowl. No offense, but your whole post is ridiculous as both have proven to be able to get the most out of lesser quarterbacks. So much so that guys like Sanchez, Alex Smith, and Kap all got huge paydays because of how Rex/Roman masked their flaws and got the most out of them. But continue to make absolute declarations of future failure that are factually incorrect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Everything you said about Rex being terrible at grooming quarterbacks is meaningless. The coach can't develop a guy if he's not any good. He can only work with what is given to him and he took a bad QB to the AFC championship game twice. Geno isnt a good QB, and doubt he will be under any other coach. Roman saved Alex Smiths career and got a raw Kapernick to the Super Bowl. No offense, but your whole post is ridiculous as both have proven to be able to get the most out of lesser quarterbacks. So much so that guys like Sanchez, Alex Smith, and Kap all got huge paydays because of how Rex/Roman masked their flaws and got the most out of them. But continue to make absolute declarations of future failure that are factually incorrect One could argue Rex made a terrible QB competent for a couple seasons, because Sanchez is terrible. He has an arm, you can make a highlight tape out of him, but he's terrible. Rex better not let him close. I doubt he will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 So who we need is Marshawn Lynch, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) And people that think they know everything are equally as annoying. If you were to know everything about x's and o's as you profess, then you most certainly would have known it is "I" formation instead of "eye" formation regardless if it was late at night, early in the morning, hungover, stuck in an airport, have a screaming kid next to you or whatever. Just sayin'. At what point did I say I know everything? Do I know more compared to somebody who is willing to dismiss an entire post based on a grammatical error? I find it likely. It's not certain. My grammar is pathetic, does that mean every aspect of my intelligence is? The spell checkers have always bothered me. It's douchery at it's finest. It's a GD internet forum. Simple typo, ask yourself, did you understand what I meant? Sounds like you did. I also guarantee the original poster did in fact read the whole thing. He just wanted to make a point about a grammatical error because that's how those people act on the internet. Which adds what as far as conversational value? Everything you said about Rex being terrible at grooming quarterbacks is meaningless. The coach can't develop a guy if he's not any good. He can only work with what is given to him and he took a bad QB to the AFC championship game twice. Geno isnt a good QB, and doubt he will be under any other coach. Roman saved Alex Smiths career and got a raw Kapernick to the Super Bowl. No offense, but your whole post is ridiculous as both have proven to be able to get the most out of lesser quarterbacks. So much so that guys like Sanchez, Alex Smith, and Kap all got huge paydays because of how Rex/Roman masked their flaws and got the most out of them. But continue to make absolute declarations of future failure that are factually incorrect Ok, I agree he hasn't had the player to groom. But nothing in his coaching background suggests any offensive experience, let alone QB coaching experience. He's universally described as a defensive guru. As some have pointed out, this idea of grooming a QB might even be a flawed notion as the cream will rise to the top. Further, I think you took my post a little off it's intended path. I think Roman will get us outstanding QB play, I just don't think it will be based on him turning a QB we have into this franchise concept. It will be because he runs a very QB friendly system and we will get good QB play as a result of that system. It's all just opinion, but as far as Ryan goes, you would probably have to ask 100 experts if his skill set is designed to "groom QB's" before one of them says yes. Not just the talking heads either. He's about the most obvious one way (defensive) coach in the league. The thought of Rex Ryan grooming a QB seems as likely as his father "grooming" a QB. Why does QB development sound like a day at the dog salon? Edited January 19, 2015 by KzooMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 At what point did I say I know everything? Do I know more compared to somebody who is willing to dismiss an entire post based on a grammatical error? I find it likely. It's not certain. My grammar is pathetic, does that mean every aspect of my intelligence is? The spell checkers have always bothered me. It's douchery at it's finest. It's a GD internet forum. Simple typo, ask yourself, did you understand what I meant? Sounds like you did. I also guarantee the original poster did in fact read the whole thing. He just wanted to make a point about a grammatical error because that's how those people act on the internet. Which adds what as far as conversational value? Ok, I agree he hasn't had the player to groom. But nothing in his coaching background suggests any offensive experience, let alone QB coaching experience. He's universally described as a defensive guru. As some have pointed out, this idea of grooming a QB might even be a flawed notion as the cream will rise to the top. Further, I think you took my post a little off it's intended path. I think Roman will get us outstanding QB play, I just don't think it will be based on him turning a QB we have into this franchise concept. It will be because he runs a very QB friendly system and we will get good QB play as a result of that system. It's all just opinion, but as far as Ryan goes, you would probably have to ask 100 experts if his skill set is designed to "groom QB's" before one of them says yes. Not just the talking heads either. He's about the most obvious one way (defensive) coach in the league. The thought of Rex Ryan grooming a QB seems as likely as his father "grooming" a QB. Why does QB development sound like a day at the dog salon? I only have to ask one, not a hundred...Mark Brunell. And he knows better than anyone. FYI, the HC isn't the one grooming the QB in most situations...the OC and QB coach are going to have the biggest impact on the QB in most cases when it comes to mechanics, learning the game, etc. Rex and Roman have proven to be able scheme around the strengths and weaknesses of their QB, and that's the most important thing. You made a declaration that these guys can't develop a guy, and I'm sorry, but facts suggest otherwise and the reality is that they have gotten the most out of the QBs they have coached. So to say they can't is ridiculous and no amount of explaining will validate that statement. Doesnt mean they are going to develop the next Brady or Brees, but to say they can't is factually false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) I only have to ask one, not a hundred...Mark Brunell. And he knows better than anyone. FYI, the HC isn't the one grooming the QB in most situations...the OC and QB coach are going to have the biggest impact on the QB in most cases when it comes to mechanics, learning the game, etc. Rex and Roman have proven to be able scheme around the strengths and weaknesses of their QB, and that's the most important thing. You made a declaration that these guys can't develop a guy, and I'm sorry, but facts suggest otherwise and the reality is that they have gotten the most out of the QBs they have coached. So to say they can't is ridiculous and no amount of explaining will validate that statement. Doesnt mean they are going to develop the next Brady or Brees, but to say they can't is factually false. I wonder if Vegas had odds up, Rex Ryan developing a franchise QB or Mark Brunell knowing the game better than anyone, which would be the bigger long shot. To your credit I would say in that context Ryan wouldn't be the underdog. Edited January 19, 2015 by KzooMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumblefish Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 David Lee, is no Bruce Lee, but than who is , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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