Some thoughts re coaching, the GM and moving forward

[mannc]

Would you guys have fired Philbin last year after the Phins got blanketed by the Bills and missed the playoffs? (I know they could still miss the playoffs again this year)

We are not talking about the Dolphins. Most of us have no clue whether or not Philbin is a good coach, although he certainly seemed to have his team better prepared than St Doug did on Thursday. He may simply be benefitting from having hired a good offensive coordinator.

[jahnyc]

I think many of us would agree that it may not be objectively "fair" to fire Whaley and Marrone after only two years, but there are many factors impacting this situation that are not typical. New ownership likely has the desire to take a fresh look at the organization and make whatever changes are needed. It is their team and they paid a lot of money for it. If the Pegulas bring in a respected football consultant and the consultant makes recommendations that include hiring a new GM and a new head coach, I am okay with that. Let an expert do the evaluation and make that determination.

[Fixxxer]

We are not talking about the Dolphins. Most of us have no clue whether or not Philbin is a good coach, although he certainly seemed to have his team better prepared than St Doug did on Thursday. He may simply be benefitting from having hired a good offensive coordinator.

 

And why the hell we can't do the same thing? Why this obsessive behavior of cleaning house when the team is so close to the goal of being a great football team? Many people here believe there's a guy that can come in and change everything for better just because, a savior of sorts that with it's mere presence will heal us all.

 

If Pegula is smart he sits down with the coach and tells him that he owes himself better coaching at the offensive coordinator position, such as he understood going in that he needed a good defensive coordinator.

 

FWIW, over at finheaven.com there was a lot of talk about firing Philbin after that loss, I know that we shouldn't care but I thought there are similarities of what transpired with them last year and what is going on here with us this year.

[mannc]

 

 

And why the hell we can't do the same thing? Why this obsessive behavior of cleaning house when the team is so close to the goal of being a great football team? Many people here believe there's a guy that can come in and change everything for better just because, a savior of sorts that with it's mere presence will heal us all.

 

If Pegula is smart he sits down with the coach and tells him that he owes himself better coaching at the offensive coordinator position, such as he understood going in that he needed a good defensive coordinator.

 

FWIW, over at finheaven.com there was a lot of talk about firing Philbin after that loss, I know that we shouldn't care but I thought there are similarities of what transpired with them last year and what is going on here with us this year.

Just read the link McBride posted in one of the other Marrone threads, about Marrone's explanation for failing to go for it on 4th down. This guy has no business coaching even a high school team. It is shocking that he was hired in the first place.

[Fixxxer]

Just read the link McBride posted in one of the other Marrone threads, about Marrone's explanation for failing to go for it on 4th down. This guy has no business coaching even a high school team. It is shocking that he was hired in the first place.

 

Was he not a hot on everybody's list as a hot candidate? Amazing if you say no

 

Regarding press conferences, I don't care about them either if we win or lose, they serve no purpose and people love to listen to them to nitpick them and used them to accommodate their opinions.

About the punt on fourth down, he got it right against the Chiefs and he got it wrong against the Phins, the important thing is that he learns from it if he has the chance, of course.

[cale]

I saw this on the board this week. Per Russ Brandon

 

“One of the ways you don’t in this league is since 1998 we’ve had seven head coaches, nine offensive coordinators, seven defensive coordinators and six general managers. That is not a formula for winning. Continuity is the number one variable when it comes to winning in this league and we need to have that as we move forward.”

 

To me this is an indictment of the organization not so much the people we hired. Of the coaches and GMs we did hire how many would have succeeded in places like say Green Bay or Baltimore or maybe even Denver.

 

Pete Carroll believes in Always Compete. He changed the *culture* not just the football product.

 

http://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2014/2/3/5374724/super-bowl-48-seahawks-pete-carrolls-richard-sherman-marshawn-lynch

 

I don't know much about the Bills, but I know one thing. The people we hired were not empowered to change the culture at One Bills Drive. That was exclusively the domain of Ralph and Littman. Maybe to a lesser extent - Brandon. Once Butler and Wade left the building strong independent thought left with them.

 

I am optimistic that with new ownership all this changes and that the Pegulas make this the No. 1 Priority. Until we address culture none of the other stuff matters. I promise you we would have run Brady and Belichick out of town and then wondered why the were so successful elsewhere. This franchise is broken from the inside out. I think better days are ahead. But it's up to the Pegulas to take up the reigns at the end of this season and not just settle for the status quo.

 

It's no accident that top notch coaches didn't take on the open coaching situation and we were left with chaff. Though in his defense, I kinda like Marrone. Fourth down calls not withstanding. At least he is definitely his own man. I also like Whaley. He's hit on some great players. Jerry Hughes is a beast. But conversely it's hard to play behind this O-line. And a rookie HC, rookie OC and a rookie QB (yes, I know he is a 2nd year - but for all intents and purposes he *is* a rookie) were just too much rookie to overcome.

 

I know everyone hates to hear this. But we just need to get a new strong boss of Football Operations and...be patient.

 

C

[mannc]

 

 

Was he not a hot on everybody's list as a hot candidate? Amazing if you say no

 

Regarding press conferences, I don't care about them either if we win or lose, they serve no purpose and people love to listen to them to nitpick them and used them to accommodate their opinions.

About the punt on fourth down, he got it right against the Chiefs and he got it wrong against the Phins, the important thing is that he learns from it if he has the chance, of course.

The linked article about his 4th down decision making makes it clear that Marrone is completely clueless and probably beyond hope. And I do not believe any other franchise would have hired him. If you think he was a "hot candidate", then you were listening to propaganda coming out of OBD; they were polishing a turd. At the time, the Bills were a small market franchise in disarray due to ownership issues, without a QB. They had few good options. Now they are no longer in disarray and the talent level has improved, albeit not at QB. They can do better than Marrone. Edited November 15, 2014 by mannc

[GunnerBill]

Marrone could well have got a job in 2012 even if the Bills didn't take him. I think he had 3 or 4 interviews didn't he? He deifnitely interviewed here and a Cleveland and I remember him being talked about as a fall back for the Eagles.

[cale]

So that we don't revise history. Marrone was in demand at the time. Buddy thought he was on the verge of being hired by someone else (Cleveland? Philadelphia?).

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/01/report-cleveland-buffalo-to-interview-syracuse-coach-doug-marrone/

[mannc]

So that we don't revise history. Marrone was in demand at the time. Buddy thought he was on the verge of being hired by someone else (Cleveland? Philadelphia?).

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/01/report-cleveland-buffalo-to-interview-syracuse-coach-doug-marrone/

Having interviews and being actually hired are very different things. Buddy wanted people to think Marrone was on the verge of being hired elsewhere, but that does not make it so. Edited November 15, 2014 by mannc

[GunnerBill]

Correct but let's not pretend the Bills dreamed him up from nowhere. He was on a few shortlists.

[May Day 10]

I don't get the common opinion here that we are "on the verge of greatness".

Miracle wins vs Detroit and minnesota... and ot in Chicago from being 2-8. Now ok they should have won the kc game... but this crap happens every time this organization ends up in a push the chips in the center game. A game that actually matters (can prorally count on 1 or 2 hands 15 years worth). They get hit in the mouth and the bottom falls out. Depth too. You can see Miamis offense immediately start atracking that turnstile graham when mcfumble got hurt. Graham was terrible and a very understated goat from the game.

 

This has been the pattern for close to a decade:

New coach. Year one we are excited but they stink and "rebuilding" is accepted as the excuse.

 

Year 2 get off to a decent start with some tight wins... look ok and then wham the bottom falls out right when games begin to get bigger and the team displays some sort of systemic failure

 

Year 3 the wheels come off completely and the team and fans quit. The coach is blamed for everything and somehow all personnel moves and problems are blamed on and leave with the coach. Brandon gets a new title. GM takes a step to the left. Sell it to the fans as MAJOR changed. Rinse and repeat.

 

Same movie over and over

Edited November 15, 2014 by May Day 10

[Fixxxer]

The linked article about his 4th down decision making makes it clear that Marrone is completely clueless and probably beyond hope. And I do not believe any other franchise would have hired him. If you think he was a "hot candidate", then you were listening to propaganda coming out of OBD; they were polishing a turd. At the time, the Bills were a small market franchise in disarray due to ownership issues, without a QB. They had few good options. Now they are no longer in disarray and the talent level has improved, albeit not at QB. They can do better than Marrone.

 

that tells me everything I need to know, if you don't think Marrone was viewed as good a HC candidate as any by that time there is no need to keep this conversation.

[Direhard Fan]

I like Cale's additude. I would replace the "OC" thou. The rest of the coaching staff seems to have it togeather. Special teams this year have shined. "D" is VG. Two out of three is not bad. We are close.

[mannc]

 

 

that tells me everything I need to know, if you don't think Marrone was viewed as good a HC candidate as any by that time there is no need to keep this conversation.

Obviously.

[cale]

I like Cale's additude. I would replace the "OC" thou. The rest of the coaching staff seems to have it togeather. Special teams this year have shined. "D" is VG. Two out of three is not bad. We are close.

 

I agree. A new OC is needed. But let's not pretend everything is OK in the front office either. Get football people to run the football side of the ops. And a new czar over the entire organization. Let Brandon do what Brandon does best. Market the team.

 

C

[Fixxxer]

I agree. A new OC is needed. But let's not pretend everything is OK in the front office either. Get football people to run the football side of the ops. And a new czar over the entire organization. Let Brandon do what Brandon does best. Market the team.

 

C

 

Isn't that what he's doing right now? I consider Whaley a football man and a good spotter of talent, though I would not be opposed if Pegula hires a guy like Wolf to make a thorough evaluation of his team and help Whaley in whatever he needs to make this a SB team.

[BADOLBILZ]

Some thoughts below:

 

1. Our offense play calling was poor against the Dolphins, but what I found more troubliing was that the offense seemed unprepared for a scenario where they had to throw the ball because they were behind. The formations used were ineffective in protecting Orton, and they seemed to continue to run the same routes from early in the game that could only result in short gains.

 

2. The o-line play is poor, and many predicted that this would be a signficant weakness this year because of the failure to address it in any meaningful way during the offseason. Signing Chris Williams was a bad move, and we knew it would not work out. Why the Bills thought otherwise is a mystery to me. I appreciate that they used some draft picks to try to improve the o-line, but if they thought any of them would be ready to contribute, then the scouting for these players was poor. They got lucky with Henderson, but I am not sure he is playing particulary well now.

 

3. I like Watkins, but I am not yet convinced he is so much better of a prospect than some of the other wide receivers taken later in the draft to justify trading away next year's first round pick. There was a graphic during last night's game showing the performance of four other first round wide receivers, and they all were playing at a high level as well. Other wide receivers taken after the first round last draft are also performing well. By the way, I have understood that the Bills were going to take Ebron if Watkins was unavailable. Not sure he is having such a good rookie year.

 

4. Still strongly believe that we need a consultant to review the coaching staff, GM, scouts and other footbal personnel. Hope this happens beginning at season end.

 

5. I would be okay with starting over with a new head coach and GM at this point. This is one of the few times over recent years where I have felt that the problem was coaching and not talent.

 

6. Tough to judge Whaley, because,I do not know what he is responsible for from prior years. Was he responsible for Manuel? What about Hughes? Whaley's performance this year has been inconsistent. The trade for Watkins and signing of Williams are negatives. Signing Graham and drafting Preston Brown were great moves. Not addressing the o-line, or at least not addressing it well, is a big negative.

 

7. I really enjoy watching the defensive line play. It will be great to have Alonso back next year.

 

8. I still have not figured out what expertise Marrone has. If he has been helping with the o-line, it is not working. If he is helping with the play calling, he is overmatched as well. What does he bring to the table?

 

9. If we interview and hire a new head coach and GM, I think it will be a bit easier this time to find strong candidates. While I understand we seem to do this every couple of years, which is a negative to any prospective candidates, we have new owners and it is not unreasonable for them to select their own "people" to manage and coach the team. Plus, candidates will know that ownership is new, stable and committed, with no possibility of relocation. Add to the mix a team with at least some talent, and I think there will be potentially more interest in these positions. Maybe the lack of a first round pick or a quality QB will hurt, but hopefully the other factors will out weigh these considerations.

 

Excellent post. I disagree to an extent on Watkins though. His groin injury is the difference between the Bills winning the last two games handily and the defeats that happened instead. Basically he has been the key to the entire offense all season and when he lost the ability to cut and explode out of breaks that has left them utterly punchless and compacted the area that opposing defenses need to cover greatly. He is the best of a great wr class.....by a clear margin. I am all about using first round picks on QB's so the Watkins trade reflected a dubious cart-before-horse mentaility by Whaley but even I have to admit that you don't get a chance at the top player in a draft very often and he was that player. Getting a top QB...and only that....trumps getting that type of player and that's where it gets iffy but otherwise Watkins is clearly worth the price.

 

As for the coaching:

 

.......they need to at least hold status quo with Schwartz on D....though I think they could actually do better. I think he's always done well with a stacked defensive roster, and he's had a few of them, but his history is that he is not a "player maker". He doesn't produce players that play above their skill level because of the positions he puts them in. We've also seen some of his weaknesses play out the past two weeks when teams have caught him in bad calls and burned the Bills in the second half. The perception that this D is great is incorrect. They have top of the NFL talent but they don't execute at that level.

 

On offense they need a guy who can run a high powered offense with a modest amount of QB talent because that's what they are most likely to have for the near future. I actually thought Marrone/Hackett might have that when they burst out with that aggressive approach in their first preseason. That really masked EJ's deficiencies early on. The problem is that Hackett and Marrone may be able to teach tempo but they don't have the complete grasp of how to attack defenses that an up-tempo master like Chip Kelly or some of his colleagues at the NCAA level have shown. Ideally, if you can bring in a Gus Malzahn or Art Briles perhaps this OL won't seem so overmatched and the skill players will find themselves a step ahead of the defense. That said.....Bill Cowher with Chan Gailey back as the OC might be a nice arrangement as well.

[jahnyc]

I may be in the minority on this, but during his time with the Bills, I thought Chan Gailey was very good at planning and structuring the offense, particularly considering the lack of offensive talent on the team at that time. I would welcome him back with Cowher.

[BADOLBILZ]

I may be in the minority on this, but during his time with the Bills, I thought Chan Gailey was very good at planning and structuring the offense, particularly considering the lack of offensive talent on the team at that time. I would welcome him back with Cowher.

 

He did a nice job with what he had. There might be better, younger options for an offensive mind but the problem here in Buffalo is two-fold because the next HC has to also break the culture of losing AS WELL as be able to match up against Belichick. Cowher could cover the HC job. He has that one thing a Buffalo HC has never brought to the organization.....a SB ring to prove to players that he can get them to the finish line if they do as he asks. Gailey could cover the O and I think Cowher could easily find an excellent DC or even retain Schwartz.