EJ

[Storm Front]

 

I think you might be the only person on the planet who believes that. The kid is far from perfect but he has an absolute cannon for an arm.

 

What good is a cannon if it can't ever hit a target?

[rfk]

You can't polish a turd but EJ will get his chance when Orten takes one too many sacks.

[2003Contenders]

Yea, I don't understand why anyone would root against EJ. Those who do simply must be tools who were opposed to the Bills drafting him in the first place and want to be "right". EJ seems like a stand-up guy -- and has handled the demotion as well as anyone could hope. I have made it a point to watch him on the sidelines, and he is clearly doing his best to be involved -- was clearly enthusiastic about the offense completing the winning drive on Sunday.

 

Obviously the right QB is starting right now. It takes some players longer than others to develop -- especially at the most crucial position. Coming out of college, Manuel had all the physical tools and the right mental make-up (intelligence, confidence, character) -- but he played in a remedial offense for Fisher at FSU. For that reason, he was the definition of a developmental QB. History has shown us that the more polished QBs coming out of college (think Manning and Luck) are the ones that are best-served playing right away, taking their lumps on the field and learning as they go. The college QBs who didn't play in pro style offenses tend to take longer to develop, provided they have the right skill set and mental make-up (think Rodgers, Romo and Alex Smith).

 

I have heard in many places that accuracy is something that you either have or do not have. If that is the case, then EJ may never be what the Bills hoped he would be when they drafted him in the first round last year. However, most of his problems (from what I have seen) have been mechanically-related, and I hope that additional seasoning will help him progress.

 

If the offensive line doesn't improve, we may see E.J. Manuel again sooner than we think... :-(

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingYards/year/2014/seasontype/2

 

Please look at rankings # 29 and 30

 

is that really an improvement?

 

EJ is the worst thing to happen to the Bills since Aaron Maybin. Love the attitude but DONT CONFUSE EFFORT WITH RESULTS.

then by the above link Orton is the next worst.

 

put down the crack pipe. Fitz was worse, and I'm sure there are dozens more.

[John Cocktosten]

http://espn.go.com/n...14/seasontype/2

 

Please look at rankings # 29 and 30

 

is that really an improvement?

 

then by the above link Orton is the next worst.

 

put down the crack pipe. Fitz was worse, and I'm sure there are dozens more.

 

Did you sort it by yards per game? I did and Orton is ranked #6 w/ 297 per game. EJ is #29th with 210 YPG.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingYardsPerGame

[Rico]

 

 

 

I think you might be the only person on the planet who believes that. The kid is far from perfect but he has an absolute cannon for an arm.

He doesn't show it though. The way his throws sail remind me of Dennis Shaw.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Did you sort it by yards per game? I did and Orton is ranked #6 w/ 297 per game. EJ is #29th with 210 YPG.

 

http://espn.go.com/n...ingYardsPerGame

screw yards per game. IF YOU LOSE it doesn't mean squat

 

Music City Miracle 97 NET YARDS of offense.

 

16 seconds and a questionable play

 

I'd love to see old man Orton run the offense the way EJ had top last season

Edited October 21, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[Brandon]

Did you sort it by yards per game? I did and Orton is ranked #6 w/ 297 per game. EJ is #29th with 210 YPG.

 

http://espn.go.com/n...ingYardsPerGame

 

True, but in fairness to EJ, you also have to consider that Orton is 3rd in the league in pass attempts per game, where EJ was 20th. Granted, given that Orton is averaging 7.2 yards per attempt vs 6.4 for EJ, he'd have more yards for the same number of attempts.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Brandon

[Storm Front]

Most of EJ's pass completions were to FredEx or CJ. They went wobbling about 2 yards in the air.

[John Cocktosten]

screw yards per game. IF YOU LOSE it doesn't mean squat

 

Music City Miracle 97 NET YARDS of offense.

 

16 seconds and a questionable play

 

I'd love to see old man Orton run the offense the way EJ had top last season

 

I was responding to the stats that you put up to fit your agenda and was pointed out the major hole in it. Now you say screw stats? Btw, the Bills are 2-1 with Old Man Orton so I'm confused by the losing comment.

 

You clearly are rooting for the player not the jersey.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I was responding to the stats that you put up to fit your agenda and was pointed out the major hole in it. Now you say screw stats? Btw, the Bills are 2-1 with Old Man Orton so I'm confused by the losing comment.

 

You clearly are rooting for the player not the jersey.

:blush: you "critics" crack me up.

A QB can pass for 400 yards per game and still lose consistently

A QB can pass for 97 yards and win (w/o the other team cheating)

 

in the past 5 years Brady, Brees and Manning* have been lighting it up in passing yards. Which one has won a SB recently? NONE

 

No QB that lead the league in passing yards in a season has won a SB in that season.

 

so brag all you want about passing yards the end results speak for themselves, As a Bill Orton is average

Edited October 21, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[Orton's Arm]

More EJ Manuel mythology. Right up there with the "one-read" offense Jimbo Fisher designed just for him.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Wrong on both counts.

 

In college, Manuel almost always threw to his first read or took the checkdown option.

 

As for Manuel's college coach, reports from multiple sources indicate the coach had warned NFL teams that Manuel might not be worth more than a third or fourth round pick. Fisher publicly refuted these rumors, claiming that the only NFL representative with whom he'd spoken about Manuel was Buddy Nix. Anyone who wants to believe Fisher's story in its entirety has to believe that of the several teams which showed interest in Manuel, only one bothered to ask his college coach about him. Anyone who doesn't believe that has to believe that at least a portion of Fisher's public statement was a deliberate fabrication. In which case, his public statement in its entirety would lack credibility.

 

It may be in Fisher's interest to give honest (or at least somewhat honest) appraisals of his players to NFL teams. If he develops a reputation of over-hyping his players, then after a while teams will stop listening to him. But it's probably not in his interests for high school prospects to realize this is what he's doing. That he's willing to say things which would prevent some of his players from getting over-drafted. (Thereby potentially costing these players millions of dollars on their rookie deals.) It may well be that Fisher has adopted a strategy of privately giving teams a somewhat accurate picture of players like Manuel, while publicly proclaiming he'd had nothing but good things to say about such players.

[Rob's House]

I dedicate this song to EJ

 

Divinyls - I Touch Myself:

 

 

That's cute

Edited October 21, 2014 by Rob's House

[K-9]

Wrong on both counts.

 

In college, Manuel almost always threw to his first read or took the checkdown option.

 

As for Manuel's college coach, reports from multiple sources indicate the coach had warned NFL teams that Manuel might not be worth more than a third or fourth round pick. Fisher publicly refuted these rumors, claiming that the only NFL representative with whom he'd spoken about Manuel was Buddy Nix. Anyone who wants to believe Fisher's story in its entirety has to believe that of the several teams which showed interest in Manuel, only one bothered to ask his college coach about him. Anyone who doesn't believe that has to believe that at least a portion of Fisher's public statement was a deliberate fabrication. In which case, his public statement in its entirety would lack credibility.

 

It may be in Fisher's interest to give honest (or at least somewhat honest) appraisals of his players to NFL teams. If he develops a reputation of over-hyping his players, then after a while teams will stop listening to him. But it's probably not in his interests for high school prospects to realize this is what he's doing. That he's willing to say things which would prevent some of his players from getting over-drafted. (Thereby potentially costing these players millions of dollars on their rookie deals.) It may well be that Fisher has adopted a strategy of privately giving teams a somewhat accurate picture of players like Manuel, while publicly proclaiming he'd had nothing but good things to say about such players.

 

I know three scouts from two different teams who interviewed Fisher DIRECTLY about EJ Manuel and WEREN'T told by him that EJ Manuel was a poor pro prospect. Are you calling my friends liars? Not that you'd understand, but Fisher has as much to lose, if not more, being duplicitous with scouts than he does anyone else. It's an extremely small community.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Koufax]

EJ needs to turn into a player that he isn't right now.

 

I think there is a reasonable chance of that happening. He shouldn't have played if it weren't for the Kolb injury last year, and his knee injury slowed his reps and learning as well. So sitting in the #2 slot right now could be a positive for him.

 

But right now, his accuracy and his decision making are not of the caliber of good NFL QBs, and unless he improves on those skills in practice before he returns to the field, or on the field with game experience when he does return, he isn't a starting QB.

 

Keeping my fingers crossed that he can figure out how to improve those two things, and grow as a player despite his benching. I'm not unhappy with the draft pick as #16 is not a lock pick, especially with QB, and I think we got the best QB on the board. I am not unhappy with the person who seems to be dedicated and a good team player.

 

I am unhappy with the player and performance. So for now he sits and learns and Orton plays until something goes wrong, and we don't take a QB in the upcoming draft unless it is a sleeper pick. After this season and next we can figure out if we are back to drafting in the 2016 draft, or if EJ will have evolved into the QB we hope he will become.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

:blush: you "critics" crack me up.

A QB can pass for 400 yards per game and still lose consistently

A QB can pass for 97 yards and win (w/o the other team cheating)

 

in the past 5 years Brady, Brees and Manning* have been lighting it up in passing yards. Which one has won a SB recently? NONE

 

No QB that lead the league in passing yards in a season has won a SB in that season.

 

so brag all you want about passing yards the end results speak for themselves, As a Bill Orton is average

And win consistently?

And how many times has the team with the least amount of passing yards won in recent years?

 

Its a team game one can not assign all the negative that occur to Orton and then absolve EJ of those same issues.

EJ had a running game Orton has not.

 

There are many things EJ can learn for Orton and I believe if he does he will be much better than when he came out. If he is a good as you believe he was plus this new knowledge he would be a great QB going forward.

Edited October 21, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso

[Orton's Arm]

There's really not a huge statistical difference between he and Manuel from an overall standpoint. Given that they have a similar number of attempts, you can make a decent direct comparison.

 

Orton: 124 attempts, 85 completions (68.5%), 890 yards, 5 TD, 3 INT, 7.2 YPA, 10.5 YPC, 13 sacks.

Manuel: 131 attempts, 76 completions (58.0%) 832 yards, 5 TD, 3 INT, 6.4 YPA, 11.0 YPC, 7 sacks

Point production is pretty similar, 19.75 with Manuel, 18.7 with Orton.

 

That largely agrees with what I've seen. There's not a huge overall difference, except for one. Orton makes plays late in games that EJ doesn't and that's why he's on the field instead.

 

The vast, vast majority of Manuel's passes have been checkdowns. On the other hand, it's clear Orton is more willing/able to go through his reads, and exploit a much wider range of opportunities.

 

Below are the some of the best, most meaningful stats for both QBs this season:

Yards per attempt (Manuel): 6.4

Yards per attempt (Orton): 7.2

 

To put those numbers into perspective, Trent Edwards averaged 6.5 yards per attempt over the course of his career; and Losman averaged 6.6. Fitzpatrick typically averaged 6.8 while with Buffalo. Tom Brady has a career average of 7.4; and Peyton Manning's career average is 7.6. The difference between these two QBs' yards per attempt stats is very substantial.

 

It becomes even more substantial when you throw away yards after the catch (YAC), and look only at air yards per attempt.

 

In 2014, Manuel averaged 2.13 air yards per attempt--the worst average in the NFL. (Click on this link, then sort by air yards per attempt.) The next-worst QB--Geno Smith--is averaging 2.74 air yards per attempt. That's 28% more air yards per attempt than Manuel. Peyton Manning is averaging 4.96 air yards per attempt--well over double Manuel's average. Kyle Orton is averaging 3.86 air yards per attempt. If you assign Manuel's air yards per attempt a value of 0 on a scale of 0 - 100, and assign Manning's air yards per attempt a value of 100 on that same scale, Kyle Orton's value on that same scale would be 61. Put another way, the numbers indicate that Orton is playing slightly better than someone who was halfway between Manuel and Manning would play. That conclusion seems about right, given what I've seen on the field.

[JohnC]

I know three scouts from two different teams who interviewed Fisher DIRECTLY about EJ Manuel and WEREN'T told by him that EJ Manuel was a poor pro prospect. Are you calling my friends liars? Not that you'd understand, but Fisher has as much to lose, if not more, being duplicitous with scouts than he does anyone else. It's an extremely small community.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I have no doubt that the scouts you referenced were not told that EJ was a poor prospect. That doesn't mean that he was a first round value pick. The possibility that Fisher told scouts that he was a third round talent if true is not an insult or a declaration that he couldn't become a quality starter in the pro ranks. Many analysts felt that EJ was a developmental type qb who had good tools and was a high character guy. If Fisher stated that evaluation of Manuel then I have no problem with it because it is a fair assessment.

 

Scouts listen to what coaches say to an extent. The majority of their evaluation comes from watching the tape. The Bills made a positive judgment on him based on what the tape indicated and from their own interviews of the prospect.

Edited October 21, 2014 by JohnC

[FireChan]

 

 

I know three scouts from two different teams who interviewed Fisher DIRECTLY about EJ Manuel and WEREN'T told by him that EJ Manuel was a poor pro prospect. Are you calling my friends liars? Not that you'd understand, but Fisher has as much to lose, if not more, being duplicitous with scouts than he does anyone else. It's an extremely small community.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I sure ain't calling them for supper.

 

:blush: you "critics" crack me up.

A QB can pass for 400 yards per game and still lose consistently

A QB can pass for 97 yards and win (w/o the other team cheating)

 

in the past 5 years Brady, Brees and Manning* have been lighting it up in passing yards. Which one has won a SB recently? NONE

 

No QB that lead the league in passing yards in a season has won a SB in that season.

 

so brag all you want about passing yards the end results speak for themselves, As a Bill Orton is average

 

So because they passed a lot, they didn't win Superbowls? There's about 3 or 4 gigantic leaps in logic there.

[K-9]

I have no doubt that the scouts you referenced were not told that EJ was a poor prospect. That doesn't mean that he was a first round value pick. The possibility that Fisher told scouts that he was a third round talent if true is not an insult or a declaration that he couldn't become a quality starter in the pro ranks. Many analysts felt that EJ was a developmental type qb who had good tools and was a high character guy. If Fisher stated that evaluation of Manuel then I have no problem with it because it is a fair assessment.

 

Scouts listen to what coaches say to an extent. The majority of their evaluation comes from watching the tape. The Bills made a positive judgment on him based on what the tape indicated and from their own interviews of the prospect.

 

The Bills and several other teams.

 

The point is that Fisher never said any of that about Manuel to us or any other team. Indeed, he denied the Schefter report when it came out after the benching.

 

I'd like to know why Schefter waited until AFTER Manuel was benched before citing these "sources" and offering this report. Where was it before, during, and after the draft? Where was it during Manuel's rookie year when he was struggling? It wasn't there because it wasn't news because it wasn't true. Ah, but when he was benched it became news? Gimme a break.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I sure ain't calling them for supper.

 

 

 

So because they passed a lot, they didn't win Superbowls? There's about 3 or 4 gigantic leaps in logic there.

 

That's probably a smart thing. They are MURDER at all you can eat buffets on the road; I'm surprised they're not banned from the chains that offer them. You'd go broke trying to feed these guys.

 

GO BILLS!!!