The Oline, coaches and schemes, offensive identity

[bowery4]

Pop Warner: first and foremost I did a wiki search for Pop because he was a hella guy here's a link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Scobey_Warner, and yes he started little league teams and I know that is where most of you are coming from when you use his name but really, it is sad to hear people say Pop Warner in a derogatory sense. The man had quite a career and gave us

the screen pass,spiral punt,single- and double-wing formations, the use of shoulder and thigh pads.

so please stop doing that.

I was an offensive guard in Pop Warner and played a variety of positions in HS (but didn't start much lol and eventually quit to join wresting and swimming teams, I was small, what can I say). I did learn a lot and understood basic concepts (and have been learning ever since by fandom and boards etc. such as this one here). My Pop Warner team won a championship though and was undefeated. We ran both single and double wings (something Hackett would be really smart to look at IMHO as NFL defenses are not built the right way to defend that these days and it is a running game philosophy).

 

Second: I have been reading a lot on here about our Oline and spread formations and blocking assignments. Quite a few people have the idea that we are a straight ahead man blocking scheme and not a zone scheme. I watched the line play carefully on Sunday because I had heard either Maroon or someone from the Bills last year and they said we were using zone blocking scheme. I really wanted to verify it through plays I watched and have come to the conclusion that we are in fact, a zone blocking scheme (even if it doesn't look that much like one for a few other reasons I will get to later).

 

We play sort of the opposite of a spread offense, so it is harder to see the zone assignments. Our line the TEs and sometimes the WRs are all really pretty close together (bunched). In the passing game this has advantages in some ways and a liability in others. One way it has advantages is we don't need super good pass blocking guards as the inside gaps are smaller (and they don't have to be able to move their hips as well). Also, they can be assumed to be slower than normal because they just don't have as much space to travel to, or fall back to.

 

But this also is why our offense is not good at or trying to use the screen pass (unless it is a WR bubble screen, which the WRs and TE would be the main blockers on) so much, and you probably won't see many sweeps or jet sweeps. You need fast or at least not slow guards to do that. This is also why Spiller up the middle besides his inability to see the hole, isn't working and why people say he has no space. He really doesn't that often, NFL LBs are big and fast for the most part and they "back up" the line, they obviously have an easier time inside against our line, (less space to cover) this is also why teams hide players on delayed blitzes and stunting and have success with it.

 

In the run game this also has advantages and pitfalls. If your line is slow delays happen slower and it takes a good degree of patience (or even Fred Jackson slowness ) for your RBs to hit the hole but it is smaller and filled faster. As mentioned above, with our liabilities with guards you can't have them leading outside blocking on pulls. The advantage is straight up push your guy back blocking (which explains in theory why we prefer big guys there.

 

So, that brings me to my third point: the Chan' spread and CJ and Oline play with that when it was a spread zone scheme. Our line used to be smaller and faster and Fitz was an excellent reader of Ds (which from what I have seen of Orton in his career is also the case and maybe one of EJs least desirable non attributes at this point in time). Both Orton and Fitz are good at getting the ball out quick (sometimes). But what I am thinking about most here is that the team made up for some weaknesses by using the spread with a zone scheme.

 

With a quick reader you can adjust the play to the weak links in a D. If you have a weapon like Spiller you can use him in the seams that are created by the spreading of the field. As most people on here acknowledge and recognize. Of course in that system you need deep threats or the D will just all line up in the box and you have fewer openings (which is part of why it is called a horizontal scheme). And why Chan was figured out. The dunk and dink only works if you have guys who can take the ball home from 20 yards out (in most schemes but it is harder to get guys there in a spread, especially with a weak Oline). Actually, that is true about both the bunch and the spread, no time for a QB is hard to mask as a weakness, you need to be able to sustain and progress to 2nd levels with your line. Spiller had an advantage here because our WRs in Chan's scheme were very good blockers for 2nd and 3rd level runs.

 

So all of this leads me to our staff. We have a problem, a weak Oline is killing us. We are not adjusting the scheme to meet our players strengths and I am not sure we are built to do so. We also have a guard who is a tackle (and both are just giant kind of slow men), not a fit for shorter Dline men....we can't get leverage. We are not balanced in our play calling or successful in it and the game plans don't seem flexible. The calls are predictable and it is only game 7 coming up. I kind of see what they wanted to do but they don't seem to have a back up plan. Good teams are and can and will take advantage. Firering Hackett now seems unreasonable (since we are mid season). Most of us can see the problems but we don't have confidence that HCDM and OCNH are going to fix them. I also kind of hated Schwartzy's, Wanny imitation with our secondary and Dline last week.

 

Blowing up the coaching might be the only option or not. It is a tough thing for a new owner to inherit, I don't think it is a GM problem so much (or front office at this point). I think there are creative ways to help the situation but don't think our coaches are up to it and we may not have some of the personnel to deal with it. But they should certainly try! I can see we are at a weaker part of our schedule, we need a mid-season training camp sort of, to implement some other stuff, we look way too obvious and predictable at this point, this needs fixing or heads will roll.

 

In a lot of ways, it's not that hard. We need to have our play-makers on the field (god I have been hoping for CJ and Fred on the field together more since we got CJ!) and they need the ball, a lot. We need even the situational players to have plays for them that our weak links can execute. The coaches need to get real and creative or their time here is done.

 

Have I mentioned, I love this team and hope for the best still yet? This needs attention, we definitely need to space out our Oline and the zone scheme might need to totally go. But it is a large part of what is wrong.

[Coach Tuesday]

That's a good analysis of the problem.

 

If this didn't happen to be MARRONE'S EXACT SUPPOSED AREA OF EXPERTISE, I would think his job would be safer. But it is, and he's in trouble.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[K-9]

Thanks for the yeoman-like effort here, bowery. I think Marrone would like to employ more zone blocking and I never meant to imply he NEVER uses it, but I haven't seen very much of it and I think it's for one simple fact that you allude to above: our OLmen lack the agility to be effective in such a scheme. So instead of a zone responsibility, if one of our OLmen is uncovered, he usually assists with the man closest to him when, ideally for a zone responsibility to function well, he needs to fire out on an LB or someone else in his assigned zone. Unfortunately, he is too often slow to get there.

 

Regardless, we aren't seeing the required push often enough for consistent success in the running game, regardless of blocking scheme employed. Contrast that to the Cowboys or Chargers for example, and it makes you realize how far we have to go.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[norton20]

_{Thanks Bowery. That was excellent.}

[YoloinOhio]

So in other words.... Doomed.

[boyst]

It really is boggling to understand why we are having these troubles when the expertise of this staff is the OL and such basic styles of football which we are designed to play.

 

To quote many here and in the press it seems to be a matter of execution.

[thewildrabbit]

That's a good analysis of the problem.

 

If this didn't happen to be MARRONE'S EXACT SUPPOSED AREA OF EXPERTISE, I would think his job would be safer. But it is, and he's in trouble.

I agree, good post by the OP

 

Yea, that is a sad fact about the supposed O line guru on par with the supposed QB guru who stuck with Fitz rather then drafting a QB to groom. Marrone sucks as a line guru.

 

 

I think it might be a GM problem if Whaley continues to go with the status quo. The team has three OG's on the roster Pears, Richardson, Urbik, and none of those would be good enough to start on the better teams.

 

Whaley has done an amazing job finding defensive players. A great kicker in Carpenter, and a decent punter in Gay. Then why in thee hell can't he find some decent OG's? The season is in the balance, and this is the best he can do?

 

If Whaley is listening to Marrone on evaluating O line players then he needs to stop... slam on door on the guy. Then try and find some OG's & TE's to work out, and make his own evaluations. This is his job, and the teams success on the line. He is the GM, and he needs take charge!!

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/45947/309/2014-nfl-free-agents

[KOKBILLS]

Good analysis by the OP...

 

I've never really been a fan of Marrone's...And I don't think any Bills fan likes Hackett at this point...I agree totally about the predictability of our Offense, and I also agree these two just don't have what it takes to come up with something different...The Offense looks like the football version of jamming a square peg into a round hole at times...It's even more frustrating concerning the running game where we obviously have talent at RB, but our ex O-lineman HC can't seem to figure out a way to block for them consistently...

[Manther]

Good original post! Marrone and Hackett just aren't good enough. I hope it doesn't cost Whaley his job because I like most of what he has done. But if he doesn't fire the staff at the end of the season he should probably lose his too.

[Best Player Available]

 

 

Whaley has done an amazing job finding defensive players. A great kicker in Carpenter, and a decent punter in Gay. Then why in thee hell can't he find some decent OG's? The season is in the balance, and this is the best he can do?

 

If Whaley is listening to Marrone on evaluating O line players then he needs to stop... slam on door on the guy. Then try and find some OG's & TE's to work out, and make his own evaluations. This is his job, and the teams success on the line. He is the GM, and he needs take charge!!

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/45947/309/2014-nfl-free-agents

I don't know do you think Marrone had input on signing Chris Williams? For some reason I hang that one on Whaley. That guy was a bust his entire career and it appeared not only did they want him they went after him hard. Bidding against themselves. i doubt he ever suits up again as a Bill. Some serious lapse in judgement and a nothing more than a mid priced dumpster find. Ditto the 2013 LG signing.

[Tyrod's Tailor]

Joe Buscaglia ‏@JoeBuscaglia

Through the All-22 of #Bills - Patriots. Nigel Bradham was outstanding. Seantrel Henderson is as much of an issue as the two guards

 

Joe Buscaglia ‏@JoeBuscaglia

It's not all bad with the O Line. I thought Cordy Glenn, over the last two weeks, had really solid performances. Best OL this year BY FAR

Edited October 15, 2014 by billsfaninmanhattan

[YoloinOhio]

Joe Buscaglia ‏@JoeBuscaglia

Through the All-22 of #Bills - Patriots. Nigel Bradham was outstanding. Seantrel Henderson is as much of an issue as the two guards

 

Joe Buscaglia ‏@JoeBuscaglia

It's not all bad with the O Line. I thought Cordy Glenn, over the last two weeks, had really solid performances. Best OL this year BY FAR

another guy who breaks down film of the games said on twitter that Seantrel has been bad.

[boyst]

another guy who breaks down film of the games said on twitter that Seantrel has been bad.

I do not think he has been bad. I don't think he was ever playing that good.

 

The bit I have seen of the film since I am too cheap to afford the All22 tells me that Henderson has been exposed. You cannot bull rush a guy his size and strength which is what defenders tried to do early in the season since most rookies are not quick enough nor strong enough to stop the average NFL DE or LB.

 

What has been exposed is the lack of mobility and the inability of leverage/using his body. He seems to get caught out of position by DE's making a quick step on him. The quick step he can keep up with but the ability to incorporate his arms and upper body in the movements do not match the step. He gets the right spot with his foot but fails to keep his arms and body in the correct positions to maintain leverage and positioning. It is the rhythm that is hurting him - the fire, step, explode, step, drive type of stuff.

 

I'm having a hard time saying this because I can show it better then say it so for those not following me: He seems to get his first step in to position as quickly as needed to block the DE but seems to struggle getting his hips locked to engage his upper body for the block. His hands are a little all over the place and as he compensates to gain leverage with this shoulders and arms he loses the balance on his hips then gets sloppy footwork.

 

His pass protection does excel when he is responsible for moving OL around the pocket and when keeping the defender inside.

 

He has all the ability in the world but doesn't seem to have the bird dogging down. For his size, btw, he is not that strong.

[bowery4]

Thanks for the yeoman-like effort here, bowery. I think Marrone would like to employ more zone blocking and I never meant to imply he NEVER uses it, but I haven't seen very much of it and I think it's for one simple fact that you allude to above: our OLmen lack the agility to be effective in such a scheme. So instead of a zone responsibility, if one of our OLmen is uncovered, he usually assists with the man closest to him when, ideally for a zone responsibility to function well, he needs to fire out on an LB or someone else in his assigned zone. Unfortunately, he is too often slow to get there.

 

Regardless, we aren't seeing the required push often enough for consistent success in the running game, regardless of blocking scheme employed. Contrast that to the Cowboys or Chargers for example, and it makes you realize how far we have to go.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Thanks K9, I still argue they are in that scheme, it just doesn't look like it because they can't execute it. In anycase I would suggest to them to put Ubrick in there and unbunch it a bit.

[YoloinOhio]

I do not think he has been bad. I don't think he was ever playing that good.

 

The bit I have seen of the film since I am too cheap to afford the All22 tells me that Henderson has been exposed. You cannot bull rush a guy his size and strength which is what defenders tried to do early in the season since most rookies are not quick enough nor strong enough to stop the average NFL DE or LB.

 

What has been exposed is the lack of mobility and the inability of leverage/using his body. He seems to get caught out of position by DE's making a quick step on him. The quick step he can keep up with but the ability to incorporate his arms and upper body in the movements do not match the step. He gets the right spot with his foot but fails to keep his arms and body in the correct positions to maintain leverage and positioning. It is the rhythm that is hurting him - the fire, step, explode, step, drive type of stuff.

 

I'm having a hard time saying this because I can show it better then say it so for those not following me: He seems to get his first step in to position as quickly as needed to block the DE but seems to struggle getting his hips locked to engage his upper body for the block. His hands are a little all over the place and as he compensates to gain leverage with this shoulders and arms he loses the balance on his hips then gets sloppy footwork.

 

His pass protection does excel when he is responsible for moving OL around the pocket and when keeping the defender inside.

 

He has all the ability in the world but doesn't seem to have the bird dogging down. For his size, btw, he is not that strong.

so in other words... Doomed.

[boyst]

so in other words... Doomed.

No. Not at all.

 

Henderson would be great in a Cowboy uniform. Where they simply run the biggest badest dudes right at the D. He would excel in an aggressive style blocking by being able to just drive in to players. Here it seems like we task him to swing his hips and create, develop and maintain holes. He simply is not good enough to do that yet. With our OL so bunched together he needs to get in to position to move his defender out of the way so the RB can make the cut. His butt always seems to be upfield or completely turned 90degrees without driving his guys.

 

His leverage and use of his body is poor. It is causing problems with the run game. The only remedy I can see is expanding the space between and running with a wider OL.

 

He can't do that right now.

[bowery4]

I agree Jboys62 he is slow to set his arms, he gets out fast enough (very good hips too) but I think that weakness is even more exposed by the bunch up. The DEs have less space to go around. They have been using TEs and Fred to hit them on the way out the back field but that has been only semi successful. It worked really well in Detroit, no so much since.

 

so in other words... Doomed.

Haha yolo I never said doomed, they definetly need to adjust much more though if I and a lot of people on here can figure this stuff out. At present they will beat bad teams but may not win against better ones, stuck on a treadmill of futility isn't really doomed as much as heart wenchingly typical. And yes it is about execution, it doesn't need to be simple, it needs to be good, funny thing is I would even think about putting three backs in the backfield with EJ and doing the chickenwing triple T option. I am not sure EJ could read it well enough but if they spread it out a bit, it would hide our weakness and get playmakers the ball (just like Chan tried to do with the brad Smith experiment). Edited October 15, 2014 by bowery4

[26TrapDraw]

How can Marrone put Pears in the Guard spot when that 6-8 body gets blown off the ball cause he can't bend and anchor. He's a tackle and that's where he belongs (even though he sucks there too) he needs to out Urhbik back in that spot. Although he's not great there he does a way better job than Pears. I just don't get what the hell Marrone and Hackett are doing. Yes our Online is struggling but this offense is mismanaged and misused all the way down the line. It's so frustrating to watch this garbage unfold when there's potential for this O to be productive.

[TakeYouToTasker]

I do not think he has been bad. I don't think he was ever playing that good.

 

The bit I have seen of the film since I am too cheap to afford the All22 tells me that Henderson has been exposed. You cannot bull rush a guy his size and strength which is what defenders tried to do early in the season since most rookies are not quick enough nor strong enough to stop the average NFL DE or LB.

 

What has been exposed is the lack of mobility and the inability of leverage/using his body. He seems to get caught out of position by DE's making a quick step on him. The quick step he can keep up with but the ability to incorporate his arms and upper body in the movements do not match the step. He gets the right spot with his foot but fails to keep his arms and body in the correct positions to maintain leverage and positioning. It is the rhythm that is hurting him - the fire, step, explode, step, drive type of stuff.

 

I'm having a hard time saying this because I can show it better then say it so for those not following me: He seems to get his first step in to position as quickly as needed to block the DE but seems to struggle getting his hips locked to engage his upper body for the block. His hands are a little all over the place and as he compensates to gain leverage with this shoulders and arms he loses the balance on his hips then gets sloppy footwork.

 

His pass protection does excel when he is responsible for moving OL around the pocket and when keeping the defender inside.

 

He has all the ability in the world but doesn't seem to have the bird dogging down. For his size, btw, he is not that strong.

He's got all the physical tools, but his technique is terrible. He has litterally no punch or hand fighting skills, and after his first step (which I agree he makes well) he tends to play back on his heals, losing leverage, which is compounded by not being able to stop and control the rusher with the punch I mentioned prior. The one major positive is that he isn't lunging, and his flaws can be corrected with good coaching.

[thewildrabbit]

I don't know do you think Marrone had input on signing Chris Williams? For some reason I hang that one on Whaley. That guy was a bust his entire career and it appeared not only did they want him they went after him hard. Bidding against themselves. i doubt he ever suits up again as a Bill. Some serious lapse in judgement and a nothing more than a mid priced dumpster find. Ditto the 2013 LG signing.

I don't know. I only think it would be out of courtesy to ask the former ex NFL O lineman, ex NFL O line coach, ex NFL OC, and current head coach his opinion on who to obtain for the line. The signing of ex Rams OG Chis Williams was completely perplexing to me.

 

A partial reason Gailey got his HCing job in Buffalo was because he stated he didn't need superstars to win games, and probably why he stuck with Fitz his whole time in Buffalo. Now Marrone has stated almost the same thing about the O linemen, and stating that they don't need continuity, as long as you field the best players you have. The problem is the best players he has at the OG are not nearly good enough. A 5th round OG needs time to develop, that is "IF" he ever develops at all.

 

Whaley needs to either promote one of the two OG's on the OS, or bring in a vet FA like Incognito, and needs to stop asking both Marrone & doofus Buddy Nix for advice on anything. I also hope he doesn't have to learn the hard way that teams need quality at the OG position, and the idea that you can find good ones later in the draft hasn't worked out so well for this regime. Its a really stupid philosophy.

 

He's got all the physical tools, but his technique is terrible. He has litterally no punch or hand fighting skills, and after his first step (which I agree he makes well) he tends to play back on his heals, losing leverage, which is compounded by not being able to stop and control the rusher with the punch I mentioned prior. The one major positive is that he isn't lunging, and his flaws can be corrected with good coaching.

Yea, where is he going to find that?