Aikman 1-15 in his first year.

[TC in St. Louis]

Come on. Let's get real. Comparing EJ to Phillip Rivers is asinine at best. He's had 10 years. EJ has had 10 games. Give him a break. Anybody want to compare him to Sanchez? 5th pick? Joey Harrington? The Oakland guy?

 

We are a work in progress...I'll take 2-1 right now. Let's go dismantle Houston and move forward. Anybody know what Phillip Rivers did in his first 15 games?

 

ar Team G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Y/A TD Int Rtg 2004 SD 2 0 5 8 62.5 33 16.5 1 0 110.9 2005 SD 2 0 12 22 54.5 115 5.2 0 1 50.4 2006 SD 16 16 284 460 61.7 3,388 7.4 22 9 92.0 2007 SD 16 16 277 460 60.2 3,152 8.4 21 15 82.4 2008 SD 16 16 312 478 65.3 4,009 8.4 34 11 105.5 2009 SD 16 16 317 486 65.2 4,254 8.6 28 9 104.4 2010 SD 16 16 357 541 66.0 4,710 8.7 30 13 101.8 2011 SD 16 16 366 582 62.9 4,624 7.9 27 20 88.7 2012 SD 16 16 338 527 64.1 3,606 6.8 26 15 88.6 2013 SD 16 16 378 544 69.5 4,478 8.2 32 11 105.5 Total‡ 132 128 2,646 4,108 64.4 32,369 7.9 221 104 96.0

[ExiledInIllinois]

Don't ask how I know, but it isn't too hard to tell a Ford Granada from a Mercedes. I don't need Ricardo Montalban to try and convince me otherwise.

 

;-P

 

 

Am I officially IN? :-)

 

Yes... I am purposely butchering my pop culture references. Still do we want a Mercedes or a Chrysler Cordoba? ;-P

Edited September 23, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois

[Dragonborn10]

Before there was Micheal Irvin and Emmitt Smith, there was Aikman to Novacek. He was Aikman's security blanket along with an ever improving offensive line. Give this kid some time, a new RG, and a playmaker at TE.

[Hplarrm]

Don't ask how I know, but it isn't too hard to tell a Ford Granada from a Mercedes. I don't need Ricardo Montalban to try and convince me otherwise.

 

;-P

 

 

Am I officially IN? :-)

 

Yes... I am purposely butchering my pop culture references. Still do we want a Mercedes or a Chrysler Cordoba? ;-P

 

The simple facts were that the Bills choices were not between a Mercedes or a Cordoba but actually between EJ or Geno Smith.

 

The Bills were going to take a QB in the first last draft few if ands or buts about it. The Bills have a clear history if making poor football judgments and bad decisions based on a psychotically poor fan over adoration of the QB position going back to the days when we were spoiled by amazing play of Jim Kelly.

 

Ralph got the bad football decisions off to a roaring start with a handshake deal with Jimbo to violate the salary cap rules (I think this may be part of the explanation of Ralph seeing his HoF entrance stalled unreasonably long) by promising to pay him off for play in his last contracted year with a payoff in his next contract. It was a bad football judgment because it was obvious even to us outsiders that Jimbo (though the best) in his day was done. There was no next contract as he was forced out of the game by injury and even worse the Bills delayed at least a year too long in getting a replacement for Jimbo.

 

The team rushed TC along to start when he clearly needed to be trained to get rid of his happy feet (if that could have been trained out of him is a question). Even worse, Ralph doubled down by making a football stupid contractual decision to guarantee RJs salary (and thus a job as starting QB). When Flutie managed to hit every incentive in his contract and thus they were rolled over into his base salary, the Bills were then forced to extend DFs contract to avoid the double QB cap hit of the money they had promised RJ.

 

Thus was only the beginning of stretch picks in the draft, poor QB training, extraordinary QB pressure and overpaying of the next great QB hope which ended in the Fitzy debacle.

 

The Bills had neither the attractiveness to a good FA QB or the resources to trade for one so like it or not the Bills were gonna draft the best QB they could in the first round last year.

 

The problem was that it was a weak class at QB for the Bills draft position. It became clear that the Bills would have to draft EJ or Geno Smith.

 

Geno struck me as probably a more likely candidate to be a fulltime QB starter quicker, EJ despite his clear faults had a lot more upside and potential than Smith. EJ is incredibly inconsistent and benefitted from having a great FSU team around him. He struck me as a PROJECT needing to have a bunch of snaps before he would become the QB we want and deserve. However, he clearly is a quality guy and a leader of his teammates. However, it seemed clear to me that if Whaley picked him he also needed to build a real team around him of we wanted t compete for the playoffs.

 

Whaley/Merrone made the right move as best as I can tell. EJ has been inconsistent as the professional scouts had assessed. He is a winner and competitor as advertised, but is used to having an FSU team around him that severely outclassed most oppoents. He is a very good athlete with great escapability, but as a pro a QB must use his legs from time to time no matter how talented a runner he is and when defenders tackle you it is serious. He got hurt last year trying admirably to pick up a yard or two but the pro QB learns to pick his spots because the pro LBs are too fast and big.

 

EJ has yet to take 16 games of starting snaps yet and though he is still a PROJECT he has developed well for a QB who ain't there yet. He put up 2 very nice wins this year and then followed it up with a bad performance at home on Sunday. I know fans are disappointed but this actually says more about how stupidly fans had him leading this team to victor out of the box.. EJ in his second year just ain't no Rivers in his 5th year.

 

Maybe one day but it seems clear that Whaley/Merrone had no expectation of him neing Eli Manning Ben RoboQB. Sorry fellow fans but this year and certainly last year's Bills ain't RoboQBs Pitts team or even Manning's NYG teams.

 

The good news about Whaley/Merrone is that they appear to understand EJs limitations (unlike many fans.. but hey we're fans) and they have done a good job buttressing our great RBs, built an OL around getting 1st round physically talented players who fell in the draft for other reasons and also getting a solid WR crew by trading up for Watkins (who showed us why last week) and Willams who is physically talented but on his last chance due to character.

 

EJ is a PROJECT and getting two good games out of him and one clinker has he has shown this season is pretty reasonable. Geno Smith has already failed twice in his three games so far this season.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

a Mercedes or a Chrysler Cordoba? ;-P

 

Excellent question. Buy a much more expensive and prettier version of the same thing.

 

I mean a Cordoba does everything a Mercedes does, just in a prettier package. So what's this point supposed to be?

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

shhh "they" don't want to hear that

 

Come on. Let's get real. Comparing EJ to Phillip Rivers is asinine at best. He's had 10 years. EJ has had 10 games. Give him a break. Anybody want to compare him to Sanchez? 5th pick? Joey Harrington? The Oakland guy?

 

We are a work in progress...I'll take 2-1 right now. Let's go dismantle Houston and move forward. Anybody know what Phillip Rivers did in his first 15 games?

 

ar Team G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Y/A TD Int Rtg 2004 SD 2 0 5 8 62.5 33 16.5 1 0 110.9 2005 SD 2 0 12 22 54.5 115 5.2 0 1 50.4 2006 SD 16 16 284 460 61.7 3,388 7.4 22 9 92.0 2007 SD 16 16 277 460 60.2 3,152 8.4 21 15 82.4 2008 SD 16 16 312 478 65.3 4,009 8.4 34 11 105.5 2009 SD 16 16 317 486 65.2 4,254 8.6 28 9 104.4 2010 SD 16 16 357 541 66.0 4,710 8.7 30 13 101.8 2011 SD 16 16 366 582 62.9 4,624 7.9 27 20 88.7 2012 SD 16 16 338 527 64.1 3,606 6.8 26 15 88.6 2013 SD 16 16 378 544 69.5 4,478 8.2 32 11 105.5 Total‡ 132 128 2,646 4,108 64.4 32,369 7.9 221 104 96.0

 

another EJ thread IN

[GG]

The simple facts were that the Bills choices were not between a Mercedes or a Cordoba but actually between EJ or Geno Smith.

 

Not really a good comparison. Based on that draft class, the choice was between a Gremlin and a Pacer. If there was a Mercedes in that class, rest assured Kansas City would have nabbed it with the first pick.

 

Food for thought, according to the sages, if Taj Boyd had declared for the 2013 draft, he would have been one of the top QBs picked.

[TC in St. Louis]

whatever. he's our quarterback. let him grow.

[GG]

whatever. he's our quarterback. let him grow.

 

Tell that to the other 52 guys busting their humps for this experiment.

[PaattMaann]

 

 

The simple facts were that the Bills choices were not between a Mercedes or a Cordoba but actually between EJ or Geno Smith.

 

The Bills were going to take a QB in the first last draft few if ands or buts about it. The Bills have a clear history if making poor football judgments and bad decisions based on a psychotically poor fan over adoration of the QB position going back to the days when we were spoiled by amazing play of Jim Kelly.

 

Ralph got the bad football decisions off to a roaring start with a handshake deal with Jimbo to violate the salary cap rules (I think this may be part of the explanation of Ralph seeing his HoF entrance stalled unreasonably long) by promising to pay him off for play in his last contracted year with a payoff in his next contract. It was a bad football judgment because it was obvious even to us outsiders that Jimbo (though the best) in his day was done. There was no next contract as he was forced out of the game by injury and even worse the Bills delayed at least a year too long in getting a replacement for Jimbo.

 

The team rushed TC along to start when he clearly needed to be trained to get rid of his happy feet (if that could have been trained out of him is a question). Even worse, Ralph doubled down by making a football stupid contractual decision to guarantee RJs salary (and thus a job as starting QB). When Flutie managed to hit every incentive in his contract and thus they were rolled over into his base salary, the Bills were then forced to extend DFs contract to avoid the double QB cap hit of the money they had promised RJ.

 

Thus was only the beginning of stretch picks in the draft, poor QB training, extraordinary QB pressure and overpaying of the next great QB hope which ended in the Fitzy debacle.

 

The Bills had neither the attractiveness to a good FA QB or the resources to trade for one so like it or not the Bills were gonna draft the best QB they could in the first round last year.

 

The problem was that it was a weak class at QB for the Bills draft position. It became clear that the Bills would have to draft EJ or Geno Smith.

 

Geno struck me as probably a more likely candidate to be a fulltime QB starter quicker, EJ despite his clear faults had a lot more upside and potential than Smith. EJ is incredibly inconsistent and benefitted from having a great FSU team around him. He struck me as a PROJECT needing to have a bunch of snaps before he would become the QB we want and deserve. However, he clearly is a quality guy and a leader of his teammates. However, it seemed clear to me that if Whaley picked him he also needed to build a real team around him of we wanted t compete for the playoffs.

 

Whaley/Merrone made the right move as best as I can tell. EJ has been inconsistent as the professional scouts had assessed. He is a winner and competitor as advertised, but is used to having an FSU team around him that severely outclassed most oppoents. He is a very good athlete with great escapability, but as a pro a QB must use his legs from time to time no matter how talented a runner he is and when defenders tackle you it is serious. He got hurt last year trying admirably to pick up a yard or two but the pro QB learns to pick his spots because the pro LBs are too fast and big.

 

EJ has yet to take 16 games of starting snaps yet and though he is still a PROJECT he has developed well for a QB who ain't there yet. He put up 2 very nice wins this year and then followed it up with a bad performance at home on Sunday. I know fans are disappointed but this actually says more about how stupidly fans had him leading this team to victor out of the box.. EJ in his second year just ain't no Rivers in his 5th year.

 

Maybe one day but it seems clear that Whaley/Merrone had no expectation of him neing Eli Manning Ben RoboQB. Sorry fellow fans but this year and certainly last year's Bills ain't RoboQBs Pitts team or even Manning's NYG teams.

 

The good news about Whaley/Merrone is that they appear to understand EJs limitations (unlike many fans.. but hey we're fans) and they have done a good job buttressing our great RBs, built an OL around getting 1st round physically talented players who fell in the draft for other reasons and also getting a solid WR crew by trading up for Watkins (who showed us why last week) and Willams who is physically talented but on his last chance due to character.

 

EJ is a PROJECT and getting two good games out of him and one clinker has he has shown this season is pretty reasonable. Geno Smith has already failed twice in his three games so far this season.

 

Coming through with a high quality post at 3 am!!! Nice work night owl

 

Couldn't agree more with that assessment of EJ - we will see by the seasons end if EJ is developing the stuff to be a franchise guy....we won't know FOR SURE, but we will have a much clearer understanding if he's trending towards that or bust....

 

For this week - let's see how he responds (and more importantly the entire team) after a brutal performance

[All_Pro_Bills]

EJ is a PROJECT and getting two good games out of him and one clinker has he has shown this season is pretty reasonable. Geno Smith has already failed twice in his three games so far this season.

Appreciate the time and effort you put into your analysis and I agree EJ is a 'project'. But here is where I differ. A project is a series of steps that reaches some objective. In this case taking a 'raw' QB talent and transforming him into a competent NFL starting QB. So you should be able to measure progress using some kind of assessment.

 

So given a full off-season of workouts, working on mechanics, soliciting input from other QB's, working with his receivers, rehabing injury, studying film, the playbook, and working on the mental aspects of the game, along with a full 5 game pre-season and training camp, what measureable progress do you see? I still see a guy that throws an occasional good ball with good mechanics and footwork but the majority of time he has bad mechanics, poor throwing motion and lousy footwork. I see a few good accurate throws but mostly high and behind the receiver, generally off target. His screen passes are terrible for example. I don't see a QB that has a better handle on pre-snap reads, or works through his progressions effectively unless he's got perfect protection.

 

So what improvements does anyone see between his last few performance of last season and the three game so far other than they are 2-1 this season to date? Because what I see is a QB that shows flashes of good play but generally substandard performance and there isn't any measureable improvement between this seasons work and last seasons.

[filthymcnasty08]

Don't ask how I know, but it isn't too hard to tell a Ford Granada from a Mercedes. I don't need Ricardo Montalban to try and convince me otherwise.

 

;-P

 

 

Am I officially IN? :-)

 

Yes... I am purposely butchering my pop culture references. Still do we want a Mercedes or a Chrysler Cordoba? ;-P

 

Rich Corinthian Leather? IN!

[PaattMaann]

 

Appreciate the time and effort you put into your analysis and I agree EJ is a 'project'. But here is where I differ. A project is a series of steps that reaches some objective. In this case taking a 'raw' QB talent and transforming him into a competent NFL starting QB. So you should be able to measure progress using some kind of assessment.

 

So given a full off-season of workouts, working on mechanics, soliciting input from other QB's, working with his receivers, rehabing injury, studying film, the playbook, and working on the mental aspects of the game, along with a full 5 game pre-season and training camp, what measureable progress do you see? I still see a guy that throws an occasional good ball with good mechanics and footwork but the majority of time he has bad mechanics, poor throwing motion and lousy footwork. I see a few good accurate throws but mostly high and behind the receiver, generally off target. His screen passes are terrible for example. I don't see a QB that has a better handle on pre-snap reads, or works through his progressions effectively unless he's got perfect protection.

 

So what improvements does anyone see between his last few performance of last season and the three game so far other than they are 2-1 this season to date? Because what I see is a QB that shows flashes of good play but generally substandard performance and there isn't any measureable improvement between this seasons work and last seasons.

 

The flashes are the improvements - and we're only through three games, not even a quarter of the way through a season - any QB needs 30 starts before you can judge...do some take less time? For sure....

 

So to your point, where is the measured improvement? It's hard to say because it's so early...taking care of the football? You don't know that he isn't making the correct reads (marrone and Hackett claim that he is). He is apparently going through his progressions and in the San Diego game, many times WRs didn't read the coverage and sit in the zone, so EJ "took too long" because the WRs weren't doing what they were supposed to. Does he make some putrid throws due to poor mechanics? He sure does. He also has thrown some perfect passes.

 

I am not absolving of him his terrible performance Sunday and some other bad moments in weeks 1 and 2...simply saying, he is still a work I'm progress and we won't know for some time if he's the guy or not....

[The Big Cat]

Tell that to the other 52 guys busting their humps for this experiment.

 

Don't confuse effort with results, and let's not pretend like the other 52 have been flawless.

 

The interior of the line (and yes, this includes Wood), the young receivers and the running backs can all improve too.

 

That said, EJ has to get better too.

 

Beware the fan who argues on his behalf by blaming everyone else.

[GG]

Don't confuse effort with results, and let's not pretend like the other 52 have been flawless.

 

The interior of the line (and yes, this includes Wood), the young receivers and the running backs can all improve too.

 

That said, EJ has to get better too.

 

Beware the fan who argues on his behalf by blaming everyone else.

 

Is it the chicken or the egg? How close is the team to giving up if poor QB play continues? There are many signs that the WR corps are frustrated. What pushes that collective unit to give up on the QB? You may choose to believe or not believe the stories that players didn't have confidence in EJ last year, or that Woods berated him in practice, or that WRs are quitting on plays only three weeks into the season.

 

In a perfect world, everyone gives 100% effort on every play. But we don't live in that world and have to acknowledge the possibility of a player revolt if the QB doesn't start playing better.

[The Big Cat]

Is it the chicken or the egg? How close is the team to giving up if poor QB play continues? There are many signs that the WR corps are frustrated. What pushes that collective unit to give up on the QB? You may choose to believe or not believe the stories that players didn't have confidence in EJ last year, or that Woods berated him in practice, or that WRs are quitting on plays only three weeks into the season.

 

In a perfect world, everyone gives 100% effort on every play. But we don't live in that world and have to acknowledge the possibility of a player revolt if the QB doesn't start playing better.

 

He failed in his first test this year.

 

I said last week that a win against SD would bump two national narratives our way: 1.) the Bills are for real and 2.) EJ responded when finally 'asked' to do something.

 

Well, the first one remains in limbo and EJ played right into the laps of all his doubters Sunday.

 

He failed in his first test. But I doubt his failures will accumulate, not with the money Orton is making.

 

Also, this is the first I'm hearing of the Woods "berating." I remain unmoved. Don't mind, and in fact welcome a bit of chippiness from the receivers, but seriously question the severity of the 'berating' if the only ones talking about it are those looking for evidence in their case against Manuel.

Edited September 23, 2014 by The Big Cat

[GG]

Also, this is the first I'm hearing of the Woods "berating." I remain unmoved. Don't mind, and in fact welcome a bit of chippiness from the receivers, but seriously question the severity of the 'berating' if the only ones talking about it are those looking for evidence in their case against Manuel.

 

You honestly didn't read the report that speculated that Marrone benched Woods because he criticized EJ in front of the team? You may choose not to believe it, but there is definitely a huge gulf between the QB and his receivers at this point. Saint Doug may need to perform another miracle.

[The Big Cat]

You honestly didn't read the report that speculated that Marrone benched Woods because he criticized EJ in front of the team? You may choose not to believe it, but there is definitely a huge gulf between the QB and his receivers at this point. Saint Doug may need to perform another miracle.

 

Firstly, we're fans. I'm guessing that between the two of us, we've entered the Bills locker room a combined zero times. Nothing is 'definite.'

 

And no, I did not read the speculative report from which you've pulled this certainty.

[GG]

Firstly, we're fans. I'm guessing that between the two of us, we've entered the Bills locker room a combined zero times. Nothing is 'definite.'

 

And no, I did not read the speculative report from which you've pulled this certainty.

 

And exactly where did I say that it was a certainty. Again, you may choose to believe or not believe these stories. But there's been enough smoke coming out of OBD since last year, and body language on the field is plainly obvious that not all is well on this team. If they put up a stinker in Houston, better get your umbrella ready for some fireworks fallout.

[The Big Cat]

And exactly where did I say that it was a certainty. Again, you may choose to believe or not believe these stories. But there's been enough smoke coming out of OBD since last year, and body language on the field is plainly obvious that not all is well on this team. If they put up a stinker in Houston, better get your umbrella ready for some fireworks fallout.

 

You said: definitely a huge gulf between the QB and his receivers at this point.

 

Definitely. Certainly. Certainty is to certainly as...well...I couldn't think of the noun equivalent to definitely. But you definitely stated that the "huge gulf" was a matter of fact.

 

More importantly:

 

Sorry, but I'm not going to assume locker room tumult because one or two receivers gets pouty from time to time. If that were all we needed to assume internal unrest, then probably 25 NFL locker rooms would remain in an ongoing state of upheaval.