Do you believe that the Toronto group will keep the team in Buffalo?

[TheFunPolice]

kdiggz and TheFunPolice, keep up the good fight! I am behind you 100%, not 110% because that is stupid!

 

Future owner? I think not!

 

 

Thank you. The Toronto group is a nightmare waiting to happen and I believe that Bills fans who defend them are just trying to convince themselves that it will be OK. I get it; none of us want to lose the team. But I begin to seriously check out the day they take over.

 

I will be angry (like many others) and probably post a lot about it for a while, then I'll take it as closure, move on, and find something else to occupy my time other than NFL football. I'll still watch games, but with the detached feeling that I watch NBA playoff games with. It's still fun, but there's no real emotion for me when a team wins/loses.

 

Of course, I have no illusions that my posting about it is going to change anything. Whatever happens is going to happen regardless of what any of us post.

 

Still, people need to advocate for common sense.

Edited July 23, 2014 by TheFunPolice

[ET1062]

Trust me, I know Bon Jon = Gone. Two Toronto Billionaires are not going to invest close to a Billion dollars so a washed up rock star can have a play toy in Buffalo, NY. What is in it for them? NOTHING!

[TheFunPolice]

I just hope this is a way to drive up the price since moving the team is next to impossible until the lease ends.

 

If it is 100% clear that a local buyer is favored, why overbid?

 

Sort of like the stadium negotiations:

 

New owner: I am stating today that I will 100% NEVER move the team. Also, I would like $500 million for a new stadium.

NY State: Gee, we just don't have the dough... economy and all....

New Owner: But I NEED it

NY State: or?

New Owner: .............

[thebandit27]

Show me one person that has defended them...I'll wait...

 

I do remember saying that they'll keep the team here because the NFL (and the Trust) has made it clear that that's the only option.

 

I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.

[Hplarrm]

Show me one person that has defended them...I'll wait...

 

I do remember saying that they'll keep the team here because the NFL (and the Trust) has made it clear that that's the only option.

 

I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.

Some get confused it seems because they see the truth that the NFL always does what the market says because that is how they make the most money.

 

However, many fail to understand that the market is not primarily the local gate, but the market is the TV audience which provides 2/3 of the cash the NFL takes in.

 

The NFL has been going through changes since the days of Art Modell when an owner could simply take his team wherever he (or Georgia Frontiere)wanted but now all the individual teams have contractually agreed that they will not override the fiscal interests of their partner owners for their own benefit.

 

The Bills are worth more to the rest of the league allowing them to sell membership in a club with an original AFL team than sell new franchises to join a club which is running away from its past. Even worse. Ralph has done us the favor of setting this up so any new team owner will have to commit to remaining in Buffalo or endure up to 7 years of death march as we Bills fans whine about losing our team and launch protests like the empty seat protest suggested here.

 

Do you really think that the new Bills owners will be a Toronto group which simply lies to their new partners, lie to the people of and then zip out of town (probably under cover of night) to set up shop in Toronto. This would be the worst possible advertising for the true NFL market which pays the bucksto the NFL, the TV networks.

 

I really doubt the team leaves as this would be walking away from 45,000 folks who spend real dollars for their season tickets, another 25,000 folks who will buy tickets for a winning team, all the business relationships with local advertisers and 100s of millions in taxpayer subsidies for the potential (good but not certain) of marginally bigger $ in Toronto.

Aqain, given a choice between making a lot of money(from Buffalo) or even more money (from Toronto) the NFL will actually choose both. They do not need to choose between the two as arguably the Toronto population based and # of corporate HQs is more like NYC in population and corporate HQs than Buffalo. Toronto might be able to support 2 teams on their own and dividing the Greater Toronto Area market into two between the Bills and a Toronto team probably makes sense. It actually takes more time to drive to Toronto and park from Hamilton, ON than it takes to drive to Orchard Park.

 

The Bills ain't going nowhere. The NFL does not like to walk away from money (ask the Cleveland Browns and the Baltimore Ravens or even the Houstin Texans).

[TheFunPolice]

Show me one person that has defended them...I'll wait...

 

I do remember saying that they'll keep the team here because the NFL (and the Trust) has made it clear that that's the only option.

 

I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.

 

http://boards.buffal...-be-a-bad-owner

 

The OP and a handful of others in the thread I posted from the Bills official website.

 

You seem to think I have this agenda to attack or discredit you and Kirby, and take every post I make as some personal shot against one of you. I was not even referencing either of you in my post above.

 

I agree that the team stays until the lease is over but I don't see how you force an owner to stay absent a new lease (and probably new stadium). IF they buy the team and there is some clause that they can NEVER move it then any stadium negotiations or lease extensions become irrelevant, and I'm sorry but if you think the NFL will go for that you are mistaken in my opinion because it is not how they operate.

Edited July 23, 2014 by TheFunPolice

[May Day 10]

If you read between the lines, Kirby is agreeing with you.

[papazoid]

eventually, at some point, a Toronto based group will move this team to Canada.

 

I do NOT trust them.

[thebandit27]

 

 

http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?491180-JBJ-may-not-be-a-bad-owner

 

The OP and a handful of others in the thread I posted from the Bills official website.

 

You seem to think I have this agenda to attack or discredit you and Kirby, and take every post I make as some personal shot against one of you. I was not even referencing either of you in my post above.

 

I'm sorry but I do not believe in the Toronto group's supposedly new intentions no matter what anyone says, because they have had the exact opposite intentions up until it became politically toxic to be honest about them.

 

You alluded to Bills' fans who defend them, and so I asked who did so.

 

I'm not a member of any other boards, so it would make sense that I would assume that you were speaking of those on this board with that comment.

 

I only take personally that which blatantly appears so--and surely you'd admit that some (not all) of your comments were rather pointed in nature.

 

The misstep you're making here is that they didn't shift gears for appearance's sake; thy shifted gears because they want to be NFL owners and aren't going to get this team if they intend to move it.

 

At the most basic, simple level, we have the lease document that does not allow the team to even discuss relocation during the lease term; this alone would be a major hurdle. Combine that with everything else we know to be true--relocation fees, ownership approval, relocation approval, and without any "inside" info the path to relocation is littered with hurdles.

 

Combine that with what some folks with info have been told--that neither the NFL nor the Trust will sell to anyone with intentions of moving the team, and will want documented assurances of such, and it leads to one conclusion. I'll leave it for my boy tsnbd to put a button on it...

[HopefulFuture]

For anyone who thinks the group won't move the team to Toronto: don't be naive. That's clearly and obviously their plan.

 

This individual gets it.

Reading between the lines is a nifty thing to do, what brought my attention to the JBJ situation was the teaming up with a Toronto based group combined with the series the Bills attempted to instill there. For those stating it was revenue generating, I merely chuckle. A few million is a drop in the bucket when you run the demographics on populace in the greater Toronto region. Merchandise alone will exceed 20 or more of the current NFL franchises simply due to numbers.

Then there is the comments from Jerry Jones, not just another pundit, but an NFL owner who clearly supports JBJ and his drive to own a team. Here is the quote from Jones that really raised some eyebrows:

 

"We certainly want to create every opportunity we can to involve more fans. At the end of the day, it's my town against your town, Cowboys against whoever we're playing. To the end that we can create more rivalries and involve larger viewing audiences, populations, that's something that you have to look at when you get a chance to, and that's the debate between Buffalo and Toronto."

 

As you can clearly see, Jones does not support one way or the other keeping the team in Buffalo, he clearly makes a point in this comment however on viewer audiences and rivalries. Toronto has the ability to garner more monies due to those populace demographics I mentioned above, and not by importing the Bills via TV viewership, but by importing the Bills to Toronto themselves.

 

You must look at it this way, it's easier for the NFL to grab a smaller Buffalo TV viewership, even if it's downsized by the teams move because Buffalo has already been saturated by the NFL due to a team being here. They are aware they will lose fan base for the NFL product over all here. But the Toronto market more than 10 fold makes up for the difference in lose and expands the NFL product. This is simple economics here, there is no loyalty from any of the owners to Buffalo, that went bye bye with Ralph Wilson.

 

The Toronto Group has the ability to bid, and bid high. The only 2 individuals with local vested interests in the region that can go up against them or Pegula and Galisano. It will most likely come down to a Pegula vs JBJ group situation I would imagine. But if I'm a Buffalo native, and the JBJ group is saying they have no intention of moving the team after all that's gone on and a member of that group is entrenched in Toronto, I wouldn't believe a word out of their mouths.

[thebandit27]

This individual gets it.

Reading between the lines is a nifty thing to do, what brought my attention to the JBJ situation was the teaming up with a Toronto based group combined with the series the Bills attempted to instill there. For those stating it was revenue generating, I merely chuckle. A few million is a drop in the bucket when you run the demographics on populace in the greater Toronto region. Merchandise alone will exceed 20 or more of the current NFL franchises simply due to numbers.

Then there is the comments from Jerry Jones, not just another pundit, but an NFL owner who clearly supports JBJ and his drive to own a team. Here is the quote from Jones that really raised some eyebrows:

 

"We certainly want to create every opportunity we can to involve more fans. At the end of the day, it's my town against your town, Cowboys against whoever we're playing. To the end that we can create more rivalries and involve larger viewing audiences, populations, that's something that you have to look at when you get a chance to, and that's the debate between Buffalo and Toronto."

 

As you can clearly see, Jones does not support one way or the other keeping the team in Buffalo, he clearly makes a point in this comment however on viewer audiences and rivalries. Toronto has the ability to garner more monies due to those populace demographics I mentioned above, and not by importing the Bills via TV viewership, but by importing the Bills to Toronto themselves.

 

You must look at it this way, it's easier for the NFL to grab a smaller Buffalo TV viewership, even if it's downsized by the teams move because Buffalo has already been saturated by the NFL due to a team being here. They are aware they will lose fan base for the NFL product over all here. But the Toronto market more than 10 fold makes up for the difference in lose and expands the NFL product. This is simple economics here, there is no loyalty from any of the owners to Buffalo, that went bye bye with Ralph Wilson.

 

The Toronto Group has the ability to bid, and bid high. The only 2 individuals with local vested interests in the region that can go up against them or Pegula and Galisano. It will most likely come down to a Pegula vs JBJ group situation I would imagine. But if I'm a Buffalo native, and the JBJ group is saying they have no intention of moving the team after all that's gone on and a member of that group is entrenched in Toronto, I wouldn't believe a word out of their mouths.

 

That bold statement is not accurate in the least.

[HopefulFuture]

Some get confused it seems because they see the truth that the NFL always does what the market says because that is how they make the most money.

 

However, many fail to understand that the market is not primarily the local gate, but the market is the TV audience which provides 2/3 of the cash the NFL takes in.

 

The NFL has been going through changes since the days of Art Modell when an owner could simply take his team wherever he (or Georgia Frontiere)wanted but now all the individual teams have contractually agreed that they will not override the fiscal interests of their partner owners for their own benefit.

 

The Bills are worth more to the rest of the league allowing them to sell membership in a club with an original AFL team than sell new franchises to join a club which is running away from its past. Even worse. Ralph has done us the favor of setting this up so any new team owner will have to commit to remaining in Buffalo or endure up to 7 years of death march as we Bills fans whine about losing our team and launch protests like the empty seat protest suggested here.

 

Do you really think that the new Bills owners will be a Toronto group which simply lies to their new partners, lie to the people of and then zip out of town (probably under cover of night) to set up shop in Toronto. This would be the worst possible advertising for the true NFL market which pays the bucksto the NFL, the TV networks.

 

I really doubt the team leaves as this would be walking away from 45,000 folks who spend real dollars for their season tickets, another 25,000 folks who will buy tickets for a winning team, all the business relationships with local advertisers and 100s of millions in taxpayer subsidies for the potential (good but not certain) of marginally bigger $ in Toronto.

Aqain, given a choice between making a lot of money(from Buffalo) or even more money (from Toronto) the NFL will actually choose both. They do not need to choose between the two as arguably the Toronto population based and # of corporate HQs is more like NYC in population and corporate HQs than Buffalo. Toronto might be able to support 2 teams on their own and dividing the Greater Toronto Area market into two between the Bills and a Toronto team probably makes sense. It actually takes more time to drive to Toronto and park from Hamilton, ON than it takes to drive to Orchard Park.

 

The Bills ain't going nowhere. The NFL does not like to walk away from money (ask the Cleveland Browns and the Baltimore Ravens or even the Houstin Texans).

 

This is where your incorrect in so far as moving a team is concerned. The NFL has documented history of doing so, both in St. Louis and Oakland. They aren't interested in an established market if there is a larger market to be had and they've shown more than willing to make that happen.

 

You are however correct on viewership. The real money is indeed in those Television contracts to be sure. And when you look at the market demographics of Toronto vs Buffalo, the numbers speak for themselves. Is it a gamble? Absolutely it is. But in the end they have proven in the past that as a group (the owners) they are willing to take that risk. I for one am very excited about Pegula's silence. I suspect your going to see some sort of consortium come out of his side of the situation in an effort to match any offer which is larger than he is willing to put in alone. I believe he has the ability to do so. But this thread is about the Toronto group, and as of now, there is a very cheap out clause for that group in a handful of years. I have every belief they'll use it.

 

That bold statement is not accurate in the least.

 

LOL, ok, you believe what you wish, money talks, bull **** walks. These individuals didn't gather and maintain wealth by leaving money sitting on the table. You are completely blind if you believe for a second these owners aren't financially driven. The breed RW was is rare, very rare.

[KDIGGZ]

Not only is there no loyalty to Buffalo, there is STRONG loyalty to Canada. It would be bad business for Rogers and Tannenbaum to own an NFL team and NOT bring it to Canada. There are fans in Canada who are their customers that would be mad that they were denying them a chance to have their own NFL team. Think about it. This is Toronto's and Canada's only chance to have a team

Edited July 23, 2014 by kdiggz

[thebandit27]

 

LOL, ok, you believe what you wish, money talks, bull **** walks. These individuals didn't gather and maintain wealth by leaving money sitting on the table. You are completely blind if you believe for a second these owners aren't financially driven. The breed RW was is rare, very rare.

 

I never said that they weren't financially driven; I disputed the idea that there is no loyalty to WNY post-Ralph. That statement is patently incorrect, as I believe you'll discover in short order.

 

As for the financials, I would hope that you know (since you're sounding off so liberally) that the majority of the NFL's money comes from TV contracts...would it be prudent to relocate a team from the 11th largest TV market in the league?

 

Also, I'm curious to know why you believe it's simply highest number wins?

 

And if you don't mind, please tell me where the Toronto group would plan to play games in 6 years, when the lease prevents them from even discussing the possibility of relocation or a stadium outside of the WNY area during that time frame?

[Kirby Jackson]

There is a difference between what they want to do and what they are going to have to do in order to get the team. That is what Bandit and I have been saying. They would love to move the team to Toronto but they will not be able to buy the team if that is the case. No one is dumb enough to take them at their word. If they want this team they are going to be locked into WNY just like anyone else that wants the team.

[thebandit27]

Not only is there no loyalty to Buffalo, there is STRONG loyalty to Canada. It would be bad business for Rogers and Tannenbaum to own an NFL team and NOT bring it to Canada. There are fans in Canada who are their customers that would be mad that they were denying them a chance to have their own NFL team. Think about it. This is Toronto's and Canada's only chance to have a team

 

Such strong loyalty that they stood idly by and allowed Buffalo to pull their only NFL game out of there this year?

 

There's some serious double-talk going on in this thread.

 

There is a difference between what they want to do and what they are going to have to do in order to get the team. That is what Bandit and I have been saying. They would love to move the team to Toronto but they will not be able to buy the team if that is the case. No one is dumb enough to take them at their word. If they want this team they are going to be locked into WNY just like anyone else that wants the team.

 

You're naive and you love JBJ

[KDIGGZ]

Such strong loyalty that they stood idly by and allowed Buffalo to pull their only NFL game out of there this year?

 

There's some serious double-talk going on in this thread.

 

 

 

You're naive and you love JBJ

For 1 season, they said it wasn't dead. And nobody in Toronto likes the Bills because it's not really their team...yet. It would be like if the Toronto Raptors played 1 game a year in Buffalo. We would be like "who cares?"

[HopefulFuture]

I never said that they weren't financially driven; I disputed the idea that there is no loyalty to WNY post-Ralph. That statement is patently incorrect, as I believe you'll discover in short order.

 

As for the financials, I would hope that you know (since you're sounding off so liberally) that the majority of the NFL's money comes from TV contracts...would it be prudent to relocate a team from the 11th largest TV market in the league?

 

Also, I'm curious to know why you believe it's simply highest number wins?

 

And if you don't mind, please tell me where the Toronto group would plan to play games in 6 years, when the lease prevents them from even discussing the possibility of relocation or a stadium outside of the WNY area during that time frame?

 

Your statement on loyalty for WNY for the Toronto group has no backing considering the flip flopping that has been done by some of the groups members. They were searching and doing due diligence on stadium sites as late as this past winter. Re: suntimes article.

Are you implying because they have done a 180 verbally that this search has ceased? If so, I'd like a documented source, thank you.

 

Your 11th largest viewership market is also deceptive, that is per capita, and the last time I checked (RE: 2010 census) Toronto is a market of 5.5 million people (surely to be over 6 million by now) and Buffalo, well, not so much. Care to take another look at this comment?

 

I never stated the highest number wins, that is coming from you, not from me. I have stated I believe it will come down to a locally vested entity (whether it be a team up or individual) and the Toronto group given the financial resources at their disposal combined with what I feel is their commitment to see this process through with counter bids. I don't see the team selling for a penny under 1.5 billion to be honest.

 

Now the stadium question with the time lines is an interesting one, but you do not have to be directly involved in building a facility, all you have to do is have one available when the lease is up. Here is a good example, Jeremy Jacobs can not own the Bills, but, he is more than interested in getting a new stadium put up here. He put a great deal of money in to what is now known as First Niagara Center when it was built. That was one of the catalyst that helped keep the Sabres here. I am sure a similar situation can be achieved in Toronto, a 3rd party builds the stadium while the Toronto group waits, they don't have to be involved. It's not uncommon for varying parties to come together for a common cause without being linked directly.

 

Such strong loyalty that they stood idly by and allowed Buffalo to pull their only NFL game out of there this year?

 

There's some serious double-talk going on in this thread.

 

 

 

You're naive and you love JBJ

 

I believe they pulled the Toronto series for other reasons. You'll learn about them as this process finishes up.

 

There is a difference between what they want to do and what they are going to have to do in order to get the team. That is what Bandit and I have been saying. They would love to move the team to Toronto but they will not be able to buy the team if that is the case. No one is dumb enough to take them at their word. If they want this team they are going to be locked into WNY just like anyone else that wants the team.

 

And this is where bandit, yourself and individuals such as myself disagree. There is no document keeping the team here at all. There is nothing that states on paper the the Buffalo Bills could not be moved period, end of conversation. There are built in dynamics to the lease agreement along with varying parties stands on are on the issue, but even in the lease agreement it's a penalty, not a "do not move clause". I have read reports from reporters on some undisclosed rumblings of keeping the team in WNY, but they are merely rumblings. Until I see something on paper, as others have pointed out, signed, sealed and delivered that the Bills will sign a new lease, either with the Ralph (this is where I come in, it won't be the Ralph, rest assured) or a new stadium, then if the Toronto group gets the bid it's every bit a reality they could move the team. And since I've been touting the financial side of this, they'll most likely move it if the do get it in the clause year or at the end of the lease. Either way I don't see them keeping the team here.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

And this is where bandit, yourself and individuals such as myself disagree. There is no document keeping the team here at all. There is nothing that states on paper the the Buffalo Bills could not be moved period, end of conversation. There are built in dynamics to the lease agreement along with varying parties stands on are on the issue, but even in the lease agreement it's a penalty, not a "do not move clause". I have read reports from reporters on some undisclosed rumblings of keeping the team in WNY, but they are merely rumblings. Until I see something on paper, as others have pointed out, signed, sealed and delivered that the Bills will sign a new lease, either with the Ralph (this is where I come in, it won't be the Ralph, rest assured) or a new stadium, then if the Toronto group gets the bid it's every bit a reality they could move the team. And since I've been touting the financial side of this, they'll most likely move it if the do get it in the clause year or at the end of the lease. Either way I don't see them keeping the team here.

I have not personally seen the terms of the trust but have been assured that the Bills will be here long term. It will all play out soon enough but that is where the discrepancy is. Just because we have not seen it does not mean that it does not exist.

 

My guess is (and this part is a guess) that if a WNY buyer hits a certain threshold bid wise (maybe $900M in this case) they win the bid unless the bidder with the higher number commits to WNY for the same term and on the same terms. The change of course from this group and others has come as they have learned the rules of the trust and the active market for the team.

[thebandit27]

Your statement on loyalty for WNY for the Toronto group has no backing considering the flip flopping that has been done by some of the groups members. They were searching and doing due diligence on stadium sites as late as this past winter. Re: suntimes article.

Are you implying because they have done a 180 verbally that this search has ceased? If so, I'd like a documented source, thank you.

 

I made no statement about loyalty to WNY from the Toronto group. For the 3rd time I will directly tell you that the group would indeed like to move the team, but they will not be awarded the team unless they offer a documented guarantee to keep the team here. This is the reason for the 180; what, again, is so hard to understand about that?

 

Also, for a guy that was so sure about a downtown stadium a month ago, you seem to be in full-on panic mode now...why don't you enlighten us as to why?

 

Your 11th largest viewership market is also deceptive, that is per capita, and the last time I checked (RE: 2010 census) Toronto is a market of 5.5 million people (surely to be over 6 million by now) and Buffalo, well, not so much. Care to take another look at this comment?

 

Of course it's based on population. According to the NFL's demographics, Buffalo is a 1.1 million populace, nearly the same size as New Orleans and Jacksonville and 3x the size of Green Bay.

 

Toronto can be as big a market as it is, and still not draw enough ratings to make it worth moving there. New York City, which almost undoubtedly has more football fans than Toronto, draws the lowest ratings in the league. Are we supposed to assume that there are more football fans per capita in Toronto than in NYC so as to make it a market so valuable that the NFL will seek to move New York State's only team?

 

Why don't you reconsider the argument? Population does not make ratings...Los Angeles has lost 2 football teams in my lifetime.

 

I never stated the highest number wins, that is coming from you, not from me. I have stated I believe it will come down to a locally vested entity (whether it be a team up or individual) and the Toronto group given the financial resources at their disposal combined with what I feel is their commitment to see this process through with counter bids. I don't see the team selling for a penny under 1.5 billion to be honest.

 

You strongly implied it here:

 

 

This is where your incorrect in so far as moving a team is concerned. The NFL has documented history of doing so, both in St. Louis and Oakland. They aren't interested in an established market if there is a larger market to be had and they've shown more than willing to make that happen.

 

You are however correct on viewership. The real money is indeed in those Television contracts to be sure. And when you look at the market demographics of Toronto vs Buffalo, the numbers speak for themselves. Is it a gamble? Absolutely it is. But in the end they have proven in the past that as a group (the owners) they are willing to take that risk. I for one am very excited about Pegula's silence. I suspect your going to see some sort of consortium come out of his side of the situation in an effort to match any offer which is larger than he is willing to put in alone. I believe he has the ability to do so. But this thread is about the Toronto group, and as of now, there is a very cheap out clause for that group in a handful of years. I have every belief they'll use it.

 

 

 

LOL, ok, you believe what you wish, money talks, bull **** walks. These individuals didn't gather and maintain wealth by leaving money sitting on the table. You are completely blind if you believe for a second these owners aren't financially driven. The breed RW was is rare, very rare.

 

If that's not what you meant, fine, but then why are you worried?

 

Now the stadium question with the time lines is an interesting one, but you do not have to be directly involved in building a facility, all you have to do is have one available when the lease is up. Here is a good example, Jeremy Jacobs can not own the Bills, but, he is more than interested in getting a new stadium put up here. He put a great deal of money in to what is now known as First Niagara Center when it was built. That was one of the catalyst that helped keep the Sabres here. I am sure a similar situation can be achieved in Toronto, a 3rd party builds the stadium while the Toronto group waits, they don't have to be involved. It's not uncommon for varying parties to come together for a common cause without being linked directly.

 

So you think the NFL, the County, and the State are simply going to turn a blind eye to a stadium being constructed in the Toronto area that has "no connection" to the NFL team currently playing in Buffalo?

 

You cannot possibly believe that.

 

If so much as a shovel touches the ground you can believe there will be action on the part of local legislature, and they have the ammo to win the legal battle as I'm sure you've seen if you've read the lease.

 

I believe they pulled the Toronto series for other reasons. You'll learn about them as this process finishes up.

 

No need to be ambiguous, feel free to expound.