Rocky Landing Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) If you're going to cut-and-paste from another website, you should at least use quotations. Be that as it may, there is a distinct level of intellectual dishonesty in your sources. I won't get onto your first post, because all of the points, including the spurious stats, have been covered in the previous pages. But this particular cut-and-paste (taken directly from a Dan Snyder press release) is an especially interesting one. For example, it neglects to mention that the late coach George Allen created the Red Cloud Athletic Fund. It also neglects to mention that the primary beneficiary of the fund, the Red Cloud Indian School, has denounced the name "Redskins," and (according to a letter they wrote to the Washington Post), has accused Snyder of misrepresenting their role in developing the logo. I love debate. I truly do. And, I despise plagiarism. Mindlessly cutting and pasting off a biased website and passing it off as your own debate makes my blood boil. Edited June 13, 2014 by Beerball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Thank god for 2014. The year PC's woke up and realized a billion dollar entity has a nickname that contains the word 'Red' next to the word 'Skin'. Lets shake this issue silly until an overwhelming majority just says "F it......just change it". Or perhaps the owner finally decides to do the right thing. Save your PC crap for someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 If you're going to cut-and-paste from another website, you should at least use quotations. Be that as it may, there is a distinct level of intellectual dishonesty in your sources. I won't get onto your first post, because all of the points, including the spurious stats, have been covered in the previous pages. But this particular cut-and-paste (taken directly from a Dan Snyder press release) is an especially interesting one. For example, it neglects to mention that the late coach George Allen created the Red Cloud Athletic Fund. It also neglects to mention that the primary beneficiary of the fund, the Red Cloud Indian School, has denounced the name "Redskins," and (according to a letter to the Washington Post), has accused Snyder of misrepresenting their role in developing the logo. I love debate. I truly do. And, I despise plagiarism. Mindlessly cutting and pasting off a biased website and passing it off as your own debate makes my blood boil. Copy/paste aside, it's another great example of how poorly the redskins have actually handled this. It's like they forget there's a great big world of fact checking out there on the Internet. I already mentioned the fake tribal leader incident- I also cringe badly when they quote HS PTA members in random small town schools in their press releases instead of putting themselves on record a lot of times too. Just something to think on for those arguing Snyder should re-educate the native Americans about the meaning of the word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 If you're going to cut-and-paste from another website, you should at least use quotations. Be that as it may, there is a distinct level of intellectual dishonesty in your sources. I won't get onto your first post, because all of the points, including the spurious stats, have been covered in the previous pages. But this particular cut-and-paste (taken directly from a Dan Snyder press release) is an especially interesting one. For example, it neglects to mention that the late coach George Allen created the Red Cloud Athletic Fund. It also neglects to mention that the primary beneficiary of the fund, the Red Cloud Indian School, has denounced the name "Redskins," and (according to a letter they wrote to the Washington Post), has accused Snyder of misrepresenting their role in developing the logo. I love debate. I truly do. And, I despise plagiarism. Mindlessly cutting and pasting off a biased website and passing it off as your own debate makes my blood boil. Rather than letting your blood boil next time report the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I would argue that "redskin" be proven negative in connotation before we discuss a name change. The fact that the word "red" sits next "skin" in a nickname doesn't prove it to be negative. The history of the term is under debate. So that fails to prove it negative in connotation. Hopefully this is intellectual enough for 26cornerblitz. Fair enough, and a good starting point. I believe that if the Native American community were to effectively argue that the term, while having a benign origin, is nonetheless rooted in racism, negative stereotyping, and even genocide, that a name change would rise above the level of mere political correctness. I do believe that is the underlying point behind the NCAI ad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Just something to think on for those arguing Snyder should re-educate the native Americans about the meaning of the word That was not the argument. At no point was there ever a statement to "re-educate" native Americans. I understand there is passion on both sides of the issue but people do a disservice to either side of the cause if they boil everything down to the lowest level of any post or fail to read all the posts a given contributor made on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eme123 Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Fair enough, and a good starting point. I believe that if the Native American community were to effectively argue that the term, while having a benign origin, is nonetheless rooted in racism, negative stereotyping, and even genocide, that a name change would rise above the level of mere political correctness. I do believe that is the underlying point behind the NCAI ad. I completely agree. The Native American community needs to keep the peddle down on this issue if its truly important to them. They also need to be the face of the issue. I can't speak for every citizen but the more i see congress, political commentators, & lawyers out in front of this issue i roll my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 That was not the argument. At no point was there ever a statement to "re-educate" native Americans. I understand there is passion on both sides of the issue but people do a disservice to either side of the cause if they boil everything down to the lowest level of any post or fail to read all the posts a given contributor made on the subject. Sorry - the suggestion that he start an ad campaign about the words rich positive history. I meant no harm to you with that as much as noting snyders TERRIBLE handling of the situation and how epicly bad that could go. As you noted, they'd need to be great for it not to flop and I question if they'd achieve even mediocre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eme123 Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Or perhaps the owner finally decides to do the right thing. Save your PC crap for someone else. 32k posts??? Being labeled a PC is the least of your worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 32k posts??? Being labeled a PC is the least of your worries. Good answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Sorry - the suggestion that he start an ad campaign about the words rich positive history. I meant no harm to you with that as much as noting snyders TERRIBLE handling of the situation and how epicly bad that could go. As you noted, they'd need to be great for it not to flop and I question if they'd achieve even mediocre You are certainly correct that the organization has handle this very poorly. And my suggestion of an education campaign may be way too late in the process to do any good. That process probably should have happened when the rumbling started. Now it may just look like and be portrayed as a last ditched effort to save the name. My statement was more directed at the earlier poster that commented on what I was justifying more than the your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopple Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 If you're going to cut-and-paste from another website, you should at least use quotations. Be that as it may, there is a distinct level of intellectual dishonesty in your sources. I won't get onto your first post, because all of the points, including the spurious stats, have been covered in the previous pages. But this particular cut-and-paste (taken directly from a Dan Snyder press release) is an especially interesting one. For example, it neglects to mention that the late coach George Allen created the Red Cloud Athletic Fund. It also neglects to mention that the primary beneficiary of the fund, the Red Cloud Indian School, has denounced the name "Redskins," and (according to a letter they wrote to the Washington Post), has accused Snyder of misrepresenting their role in developing the logo. I love debate. I truly do. And, I despise plagiarism. Mindlessly cutting and pasting off a biased website and passing it off as your own debate makes my blood boil. I should have credited Dan Snyder with the info I provided about the Red Cloud Athletic Fund. My mistake. What is your source for saying that George Allan created that fund? Your source for saying the school denounced the name “Redskins”? Can you provide a link to the letter they sent to the Washington Post, accusing Snyder of misrepresenting their role in developing the logo? I too love debate. It make my blood boil when people post as fact things they can’t prove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I should have credited Dan Snyder with the info I provided about the Red Cloud Athletic Fund. My mistake. What is your source for saying that George Allan created that fund? Your source for saying the school denounced the name “Redskins”? Can you provide a link to the letter they sent to the Washington Post, accusing Snyder of misrepresenting their role in developing the logo? I too love debate. It make my blood boil when people post as fact things they can’t prove. http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/letter-from-red-cloud-indian-school-on-the-washington-redskins-name/2013/10/11/e24044ba-32bc-11e3-8627-c5d7de0a046b_story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopple Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 If such a plaque does exists, I would think its very presence provide great credence to Snyder's position. People have said that Snyder and the Redskins haven’t handled this name change controversy very well. But does anyone really believe they would be that stupid as to issue a press release about a plaque hanging in their office that really didn’t exist. I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 32k posts??? Being labeled a PC is the least of your worries. Critical thinking should be your primary worry, not Beerball's post count. You have yet to demonstrate any of it in this thread thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 People have said that Snyder and the Redskins haven’t handled this name change controversy very well. But does anyone really believe they would be that stupid as to issue a press release about a plaque hanging in their office that really didn’t exist. I think not. As it was pointed out by Rocky Landling the organization that created the plaque was founded by the same person who received the honor with the wonderful remarks regarding the name. My point was more that if the plaque was actually provided by a valid native American entity it would have far more weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I never noticed this before, but the logo has a Nike swoosh on his cheek! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I don't understand how Politically Correct gets thrown around like a goddamned radioactive potato. It's Politically Correct because it's correct. It's the right thing to do or say so as not to disrespect a group of people. Calling something / someone Politically Correct shouldn't be an insult. Jesus would have been Politically Correct. The issue comes down to who determines what is correct, to use your term, and what is not. Group-think mentality often times gets caught up in the emotions of the moment and decisions made when emotional are not usually the most rational. Overreaction, even if it's borne out of goodness, is dangerous and has allowed the rise of many nasty folk throughout history. That's where the fear comes from and sometimes it's warranted. It's just not warranted in this case. The people who are defending Snyder's stance because they see this as political correctness run amok are sadly out of touch and frankly wrong. And the defense of their position, at least as argued in this thread, are entirely unconvincing and poorly executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Total politically correct BS !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) The issue comes down to who determines what is correct, to use your term, and what is not. Group-think mentality often times gets caught up in the emotions of the moment and decisions made when emotional are not usually the most rational. Overreaction, even if it's borne out of goodness, is dangerous and has allowed the rise of many nasty folk throughout history. That's where the fear comes from and sometimes it's warranted. It's just not warranted in this case. The people who are defending Snyder's stance because they see this as political correctness run amok are sadly out of touch and frankly wrong. And the defense of their position, at least as argued in this thread, are entirely unconvincing and poorly executed. Are we sure? As you indicate in your well thought out statement "The issue comes down to who determines what is correct". Do we know if this has changed over time or if those in the minority of the group are making the most amount of noise on the subject? I would argue that to go along with your premise of "emotions of the moment" you must add who campaigns that emotion the best. I have not stated it here but in previous threads on the subject, I really have no opinion on the matter either way but if en masse the native American population deem it offensive then it is. But not because loudest among them said it is. There is, of course, a difference and sometimes that is lost in all the noise. The question really becomes how do we determine that honestly? Edited June 13, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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