IDBillzFan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I would be foolish to try and restate what st Augustine has so beautifully communicated on this issue. I agree with him fully. in case you all missed it the first time: Augustine "It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20 [A.D. 408]). So to be clear, St. Augustine, the saint of beer makers and pain relief for sore eyes, thinks people who believe God created the earth and the heavens in seven days are the idiots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) So to be clear, St. Augustine, the saint of beer makers and pain relief for sore eyes, thinks people who believe God created the earth and the heavens in seven days are the idiots? some one that hasn't studied the classics might be tempted to describe him thus. someone that has might describe him better otherwise: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/augustine/ One of the decisive developments in the western philosophical tradition was the eventually widespread merging of the Greek philosophical tradition and the Judeo-Christian religious and scriptural traditions. Augustine is one of the main figures through and by whom this merging was accomplished. He is, as well, one of the towering figures of medieval philosophy whose authority and thought came to exert a pervasive and enduring influence well into the modern period (e.g. Descartes and especially Malebranche), and even up to the present day, especially among those sympathetic to the religious tradition which he helped to shape (e.g. Plantinga 1992; Adams 1999). Edited November 17, 2015 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) So to be clear, St. Augustine, the saint of beer makers and pain relief for sore eyes, thinks people who believe God created the earth and the heavens in seven days are the idiots? Is that what comes to your mind when discussing Augustine? Edited November 17, 2015 by Observer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) interestingly, this scientist argued that what is now called creationism is much closer to paganism than Christianity. the romans believed that the early Christians were atheists because they refused to ascribe every natural phenomenon to a God eg: lightning = zeus acting. Edited November 17, 2015 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 some one that hasn't studied the classics might be tempted to describe him thus. someone that has might describe him better otherwise: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/augustine/ One of the decisive developments in the western philosophical tradition was the eventually widespread merging of the Greek philosophical tradition and the Judeo-Christian religious and scriptural traditions. Augustine is one of the main figures through and by whom this merging was accomplished. He is, as well, one of the towering figures of medieval philosophy whose authority and thought came to exert a pervasive and enduring influence well into the modern period (e.g. Descartes and especially Malebranche), and even up to the present day, especially among those sympathetic to the religious tradition which he helped to shape (e.g. Plantinga 1992; Adams 1999). What saint Augustine didn't understand is that God is a prankster - can't explain how 100s of devastating impact craters some as large as 250 miles in diameter occurred in the last 6000 years? God faked them! can't explain how 100s of incidents of volcanism some of which spewed over 2000 cubic miles of material into the atmosphere occurred over the last 6000 years without destroying all near by civilizations? God faked it! Can't explain endogenous retroviruses insertions in our DNA http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/10/the-lurker-how-a-virus-hid-in-our-genome-for-six-million-years/ well God is tricky like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Carson: Congress should stop funding refugee resettlement FNC's Chris Wallace to Ben Carson: After Paris, How Can We Trust A President With No Experience? CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: Why should voters choose you over someone who actually has experience in foreign policy, who actually has experience in national security?”BEN CARSON: Are you talking about somebody like Hillary Clinton?I would say the reason is because you can articulate intelligent options and because you know how to work with other people and utilize the incredible resources that we have available to us. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/11/15/fncs_chris_wallace_to_ben_carson_after_paris_how_can_we_trust_a_president_with_no_experience.html Ben Carson Answers Question About Putting Boots on Ground in Way ‘Most Politicians’ Would ‘Never’ Do The retired neurosurgeon made the comments in response to a question from an individual identified as Tom who wanted to know how many “boots on the ground” would be deployed in a Carson administration. “Tom, I don’t want to send any but this is not a want – it is a need. Now brace yourself because I am about to answer a question that most politicians could never bring themselves to say…I don’t know exactly how many,” Carson wrote. “Tom, here is what I will do. I will meet with the Secretary of Defense and Joint Chiefs of Staff, conveying to them my mission,” he continued. “I will ask them the best way to accomplish that mission. They would then come back to me with a list of resources they need.” “So Tom, the correct answer is not one fewer soldier than what the best and brightest military minds think is necessary. For far too long, we have had a leader that second guesses his commanders. I won’t do that. They will have my full support, not my Monday morning quarterbacking.” http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/11/17/ben-carson-answers-question-about-putting-boots-on-ground-in-way-most-politicians-would-never-do/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) What saint Augustine didn't understand is that God is a prankster - can't explain how 100s of devastating impact craters some as large as 250 miles in diameter occurred in the last 6000 years? God faked them! can't explain how 100s of incidents of volcanism some of which spewed over 2000 cubic miles of material into the atmosphere occurred over the last 6000 years without destroying all near by civilizations? God faked it! Can't explain endogenous retroviruses insertions in our DNA http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/10/the-lurker-how-a-virus-hid-in-our-genome-for-six-million-years/ well God is tricky like that. the evidence against literal creationism is overwhelming. Augustine obviously provides a model that fully allows for the findings of modern science and the presence of God simultaneously. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-astronomer-yawns-at-frenzy-over-popes-big-bang-words-22062/ it appears that the astronomer's opinions coincide with those of Pope Francis. Edited November 17, 2015 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 the evidence against literal creationism is overwhelming. Augustine obviously provides a model that fully allows for the findings of modern science and the presence of God simultaneously. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-astronomer-yawns-at-frenzy-over-popes-big-bang-words-22062/ it appears that the astronomer's opinions coincide with those of Pope Francis. Just out of curiosity; why do you believe in God and at what point did you accept that God exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Unlike many other people who take the Bible literally, you can't conveniently dismiss Carson as being a loon. He's obviously done incredibly well for himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Just out of curiosity; why do you believe in God and at what point did you accept that God exists? I believe in part, because of this (from the above linked article): Therefore, “science is left free to propose explanations and descriptions of the working of the natural world, knowing that none of these descriptions are the final word and that all of them are based on the assumption of a rational universe whose very existence depends on the creative action of God.” this seems clear to me based on my own life experiences. I also believe I've seen evidence of the soul or spirit. I've often worked with dying people. but why, based on what I've argued here, would you find it so hard to believe that I do believe in God? does your apparently rigid, structured, belief system require as a necessity, a literal approach to the bible as a prerequisite to believing? if so, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 but why, based on what I've argued here, would you find it so hard to believe that I do believe in God? Because it seems to me the only time you bring up God is to discredit people who don't believe as you do. There is your belief, and then there are the nutbags. And the nutbags are the one's who believe that God's holy word is inerrant. That means a true leap of faith...regardless of science. Oddly, you say some of your belief is based on faith since you recognize and accept the triune, and as an admitted Catholic, you believe God sent his only son to earth, born to a virgin, only to have his son crucified and buried before rising from the dead. You accept that God let Christ die for our sins to make the great swap of our sins for his righteousness. You accept all of that, but still find it necessary to poke holes in God's holy word because you have this insatiable need to convince people you're smart by linking to stuff written by people who are widely considered to be smart as well. It seems like a lot of work just to convince people you're smarter than they are. God doesn't care how smart you are. If he did, he wouldn't have made you so freaking stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Unlike many other people who take the Bible literally, you can't conveniently dismiss Carson as being a loon. He's obviously done incredibly well for himself. why? is being a loon and doing incredibly well for oneself mutually exclusive if so- explain Alex Jones, Sun Myung Moon, Joseph Smith, Glenn Beck, Kim Jong-un, Caligula, King George, Hitler, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 why? is being a loon and doing incredibly well for oneself mutually exclusive if so- explain Alex Jones, Sun Myung Moon, Joseph Smith, Glenn Beck, Kim Jong-un, Caligula, King George, Hitler, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh Let me know when he leads a cult or kills or has people killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Because it seems to me the only time you bring up God is to discredit people who don't believe as you do. There is your belief, and then there are the nutbags. And the nutbags are the one's who believe that God's holy word is inerrant. That means a true leap of faith...regardless of science. Oddly, you say some of your belief is based on faith since you recognize and accept the triune, and as an admitted Catholic, you believe God sent his only son to earth, born to a virgin, only to have his son crucified and buried before rising from the dead. You accept that God let Christ die for our sins to make the great swap of our sins for his righteousness. You accept all of that, but still find it necessary to poke holes in God's holy word because you have this insatiable need to convince people you're smart by linking to stuff written by people who are widely considered to be smart as well. It seems like a lot of work just to convince people you're smarter than they are. God doesn't care how smart you are. If he did, he wouldn't have made you so freaking stupid. no. I don't poke holes. I state unequivocally that it is incorrect to take ancient writings and symbolic and allegorical writing styles literally. that's it. nothing more. nothing less. Let me know when he leads a cult or kills or has people killed. so let's break this down: carson is successful in nonreligious endeavors. therefore he is not a nutbag. Caligula et al were successful at other endeavors. it however does not follow from that premise that they are not nutjobs. carson doesn't lead a cult (not sure I agree but for the sake of argument...) therefore he's not a nutbag. Caligula et al had people killed so they are notbags. therefore it follows that anyone that has someone killed Is a nutbag and anyone successful in non religious pursuits or that doesn't have anyone killed or lead a cult is not a nutbag???? ummmmm....no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 no. I don't poke holes. I state unequivocally that it is incorrect to take ancient writings and symbolic and allegorical writing styles literally. that's it. nothing more. nothing less. so let's break this down: carson is successful in nonreligious endeavors. therefore he is not a nutbag. Caligula et al were successful at other endeavors. it however does not follow from that premise that they are not nutjobs. carson doesn't lead a cult (not sure I agree but for the sake of argument...) therefore he's not a nutbag. Caligula et al had people killed so they are notbags. therefore it follows that anyone that has someone killed Is a nutbag and anyone successful in non religious pursuits or that doesn't have anyone killed or lead a cult is not a nutbag???? ummmmm....no. Caligula? Really? You couldn't go with Charlie Sheen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 no. I don't poke holes. I state unequivocally that it is incorrect to take ancient writings and symbolic and allegorical writing styles literally. that's it. nothing more. nothing less. so let's break this down: carson is successful in nonreligious endeavors. therefore he is not a nutbag. Caligula et al were successful at other endeavors. it however does not follow from that premise that they are not nutjobs. carson doesn't lead a cult (not sure I agree but for the sake of argument...) therefore he's not a nutbag. Caligula et al had people killed so they are notbags. therefore it follows that anyone that has someone killed Is a nutbag and anyone successful in non religious pursuits or that doesn't have anyone killed or lead a cult is not a nutbag???? ummmmm....no. Someone need's a refresher................ Course in Logic 101 - Logic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) the evidence against literal creationism is overwhelming. Augustine obviously provides a model that fully allows for the findings of modern science and the presence of God simultaneously. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-astronomer-yawns-at-frenzy-over-popes-big-bang-words-22062/ it appears that the astronomer's opinions coincide with those of Pope Francis. By definition, the evidence isn't overwhelming. Literal creationism is itself a process by which all said evidence can be created. You logic skills are pathetic. Edited November 17, 2015 by DC Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Caligula? Really? You couldn't go with Charlie Sheen? was lybob's example. I think it was an attempt at humor. kinda like yours with sheen. Someone need's a refresher................ Course in Logic 101 - Logic so why don't you teach by example. Diagram doc's argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Let me know when he leads a cult or kills or has people killed. He already has a cult and it sounds like you're a member as for killing it hasn't been for lack of trying just ineptitude, thick skulls, poorly made knives and massive belt buckles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 He already has a cult and it sounds like you're a member as for killing it hasn't been for lack of trying just ineptitude, thick skulls, poorly made knives and massive belt buckles I don't think you know what "cult" means... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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