D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 What a pompous comment! Thanks for explaining how it is to us all. The fact that 7 NFL teams drafted OL in first 20 picks shows they do value them. Thanks for making a good point for him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Assuming they have a QB worth protecting. How would you know if the QB is worth protecting if he is constantly running for his life. I really don't expect EJ to develop properly with this coaching staff, and GM. Hopefully he might with new ownership, if he survives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 What a pompous comment! Thanks for explaining how it is to us all. The fact that 7 NFL teams drafted OL in first 20 picks shows they do value them. Thanks for making a good point for him! I'm not sure if you're addressing me, but it seems as though you are...at no point did I say that teams don't value OLmen, nor did I say you could put any old pylon at RT. Please stick to the points that I made, not straw men arguments. What I said, repeatedly, is that there's no reason to take an "OL or bust" stance, since good OLmen can be found in later rounds as well. The draft is about adding the best talent you can add, not placing a premium on one position and forcing a pick based upon it...good teams don't do that. How would you know if the QB is worth protecting if he is constantly running for his life. Ask Russell Wilson, somehow Seattle managed to determine it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I think your QB is always worth protecting! Nah lets listen to the guy who thinks some QBs aren't worth it. Lets take his opinion seriously and make him the GM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I think your QB is always worth protecting! Nah lets listen to the guy who thinks some QBs aren't worth it. Lets take his opinion seriously and make him the GM! Winky face usually means "joking"... Assuming they have a QB worth protecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 What a pompous comment! Thanks for explaining how it is to us all. The fact that 7 NFL teams drafted OL in first 20 picks shows they do value them. Thanks for making a good point for him! Off the top of my head, Eugene Monroe, Branden Albert, Jake Long, Jason Smith, Levi Brown are guys picked in the 1st round in recent years who did not see a 2nd contract with their original teams. Everyone knows you need good o linemen but there are a lot of them and you don't necessary need to invest a top 10 pick in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I'm not sure if you're addressing me, but it seems as though you are...at no point did I say that teams don't value OLmen, nor did I say you could put any old pylon at RT. Please stick to the points that I made, not straw men arguments. What I said, repeatedly, is that there's no reason to take an "OL or bust" stance, since good OLmen can be found in later rounds as well. The draft is about adding the best talent you can add, not placing a premium on one position and forcing a pick based upon it...good teams don't do that. Ask Russell Wilson, somehow Seattle managed to determine it. Just to be clear I am not advocating "OL or bust". I don't believe FEAR THE LOSING is either. So don't lecture on straw men. Also, there seems to be a wolfpack mentality whenever someone brings up drafting an O-lineman with our pick. It is possible to draft BPA, and it is an o-lineman, and it works out!! As for the Russell Wilson thing your kidding right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Just to be clear I am not advocating "OL or bust". I don't believe FEAR THE LOSING is either. So don't lecture on straw men. Also, there seems to be a wolfpack mentality whenever someone brings up drafting an O-lineman with our pick. It is possible to draft BPA, and it is an o-lineman, and it works out!! As for the Russell Wilson thing your kidding right. You took two of my posts, in succession, and claimed I was advocating (a) that any old pylon could play RT, and (b) that I said teams do not value OLmen. Since I said neither, those would be straw men arguments--book definition actually. As for Fear, yes, he's an OL or bust guy...has been for the better part of 5 years as far as I can tell. As I've said repeatedly, in this thread and others, if the best player available is an OLmen, then absolutely take him...no doubt whatsoever. Lastly, regarding Wilson, Seattle's OL was terrible last year. He spent most of the season running for his life. So, in short, no, I'm not joking. Wilson managed to prove himself capable without good protection. More than a few sources corroborate this: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/13/2013-offensive-line-rankings/ 27. Seattle Seahawks (20th) PB: 25th, RB: 23rd, PEN: 30th Stud: With injuries depleting the ranks, it was left to Michael Bowie (+7.1) to lead the team with their highest grade. He may eventually end up at guard (as he was for their recent playoff victory over the Saints) with his run blocking particularly impressive. Dud: The team has to hope they never, ever have to start Paul McQuistan (-24.8) at left tackle again. It went very badly and he wasn’t much better at guard. Analysis: An interesting year. Losing Russell Okung hurt but when they did get him on the field his play was a level or three below it’s usual high standard. At center Max Unger had a down year as a variety of combinations on either side of him failed. Essentially, they did enough at times for Marshawn Lynch to make yardage, but this had the feel of an experimental group with the coaches trying to luck into the right combination. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol Notice that Seattle finished dead last in the NFL in Adjusted Sack Rate (which gives sacks (plus intentional grounding penalties) per pass attempt adjusted for down, distance, and opponent). Now, I'm not the biggest fan of sites like PFF and Football Outsiders, as they leave a fair amount up to subjective analysis, but looking at the raw data confirms what I felt I saw with my own eyes, and what those two sites' stats depict: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2013&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go 4.3 YPC, about 0.1 YPC better than Buffalo 44 sacks allowed to Buffalo's 48 94 QB hits to Buffalo's 108 Terrible Power Success in nearly every direction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 You are right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 As has been explained to you before: Erik Fisher nearly got benched at RT in favor of Donald Stephenson Luke Joeckel played in 5 games, at RT, before leaving for the season with an injury; in those games, Jax was 0-5 and allowed 20 sacks Lane Johnson started at RT for a line that allowed 46 sacks, 2 fewer than Buffalo Jonathan Cooper did not play a down Chance Warmack was a huge disappointment for a Tennessee team that had a Pro Bowler at LT, an established RT, and Andy-the-Great at LG Fluker played well Pugh was horrible at RT for the Giants Kyle Long played well This doesn't support your point at all. To take it a step further Bakhtiari and Warford were arguably the 2 best linemen picked and they went in the 4th and 2nd respectively. These are great points. To those arguing the inherent wisdom in picking a T high in the 1st round ("hey, lots of teams do it, so it must be smart!"), no one would argue that it is not important to protect the QB. It's just that a QB protector can be found in later rounds and after the draft, it's likely impossible to tell apart the performance of O-lineman picked in the first round from those in rounds 2, 3... Look at last year's crop and tell me who is going to make a noticeable dent in the fortunes of his team's offense. Face it, it's a low impact position no matter how hard people yell about protecting the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 You are right Hey, you asked, I answered....that's all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 These are great points. To those arguing the inherent wisdom in picking a T high in the 1st round ("hey, lots of teams do it, so it must be smart!"), no one would argue that it is not important to protect the QB. It's just that a QB protector can be found in later rounds and after the draft, it's likely impossible to tell apart the performance of O-lineman picked in the first round from those in rounds 2, 3... Look at last year's crop and tell me who is going to make a noticeable dent in the fortunes of his team's offense. Face it, it's a low impact position no matter how hard people yell about protecting the QB. I'm explaining that teams draft O linemen early because they have a great desire to protect their QB. I highly doubt if they care how they look to anyone. This team has usually drafted most O linemen in later rounds, and also pulled them off the waiver wire. so, have they won many games the last 15 years doing things this way? I keep reading that good players can be found in the later rounds. Lets go back 10 years and find some players that this team drafted after the second round that made any kind of impact. I mean besides the once in a great while finds like Kyle Williams in the 5th. Finding standout starters simply doesn't happen often after the second round with this team. I still question this teams ability to evaluate players to be obtained after the second round. Particularly O line players because none have made the team for more then a year or two. What O line players have recently been drafted by the Bills, and have become solid starters? A #1 pick in Eric Wood, A #2 pick in Andy Levitre, A #2 in pick Cordy Glenn. All good solid starters. So, while I may want to see this team draft an OT-OG with the first two picks. Its because I feel its the only way this ball club will find the talent necessary to get the job done properly. It doesn't matter tho, In all reality drafting an O lineman at #9 is not going to happen, as none of the top three will be there at #9. P.S. Last time I looked the Bills don't have an Arron Rodgers, Big Ben or Russell Wilson at QB. Plus they seem intent on calling pocket passing plays rather then read-options. So, It really would be in their best interest to upgrade that line properly. Like I said, perhaps new ownership will see things differently then this regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I'm explaining that teams draft O linemen early because they have a great desire to protect their QB. I highly doubt if they care how they look to anyone. This team has usually drafted most O linemen in later rounds, and also pulled them off the waiver wire. so, have they won many games the last 15 years doing things this way? I keep reading that good players can be found in the later rounds. Lets go back 10 years and find some players that this team drafted after the second round that made any kind of impact. I mean besides the once in a great while finds like Kyle Williams in the 5th. Finding standout starters simply doesn't happen often after the second round with this team. I still question this teams ability to evaluate players to be obtained after the second round. Particularly O line players because none have made the team for more then a year or two. What O line players have recently been drafted by the Bills, and have become solid starters? A #1 pick in Eric Wood, A #2 pick in Andy Levitre, A #2 in pick Cordy Glenn. All good solid starters. So, while I may want to see this team draft an OT-OG with the first two picks. Its because I feel its the only way this ball club will find the talent necessary to get the job done properly. It doesn't matter tho, In all reality drafting an O lineman at #9 is not going to happen, as none of the top three will be there at #9. P.S. Last time I looked the Bills don't have an Arron Rodgers, Big Ben or Russell Wilson at QB. Plus they seem intent on calling pocket passing plays rather then read-options. So, It really would be in their best interest to upgrade that line properly. Like I said, perhaps new ownership will see things differently then this regime. If the Bills do not add anyone on the OL (which is highly unlikely) they will start a 2nd, 2 1sts, a 3rd and a 4th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 If the Bills do not add anyone on the OL (which is highly unlikely) they will start a 2nd, 2 1sts, a 3rd and a 4th. How to build a football team: 1st round LT, 1st round LG, 1st round C, 1st round RG, 1st round RT, fill in the rest. Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Just to be clear I am not advocating "OL or bust". I don't believe FEAR THE LOSING is either. So don't lecture on straw men. Also, there seems to be a wolfpack mentality whenever someone brings up drafting an O-lineman with our pick. It is possible to draft BPA, and it is an o-lineman, and it works out!! As for the Russell Wilson thing your kidding right. Yea, there are a few here who relentlessly follow others around criticizing their opinions. Its really sad that it gets to that. Honestly tho, I would be actually excited about the upcoming season should the Bills draft an OT-OG with the first two picks. Otherwise, i don't see them fielding a winning team...again...for the 14th year. I'm not #9 or bust for an OT. I just think that somehow, someway the line needs to be addressed better then it has so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryland-bills-fan Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 To all people saying that we need to improve the offensive line and should draft one of the three best LEFT offensive tackles to play right offensive tackle. I say, have some patience, and if all your arguments about the value of extra LEFT offensive tackles are true, then there should be a lot of teams willing to trade up to get Lewan. Trade down with them and get an extra 3rd round pick. Use the lower first round pick to get a great, roadgrading RIGHT offensive tackle. Use the second round pick for a DE or LB. Use both 3rd round picks to get a top 3 offensive guard. PRESTO, two upgrades on the offensive line. I'm happy, you're happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 If the Bills do not add anyone on the OL (which is highly unlikely) they will start a 2nd, 2 1sts, a 3rd and a 4th. Admittedly, I'm nitpicking here...you're assuming Hairston starts at RT? Otherwise it'd be a 7th if it's Pears again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 To all people saying that we need to improve the offensive line and should draft one of the three best LEFT offensive tackles to play right offensive tackle. I say, have some patience, and if all your arguments about the value of extra LEFT offensive tackles are true, then there should be a lot of teams willing to trade up to get Lewan. Trade down with them and get an extra 3rd round pick. Use the lower first round pick to get a great, roadgrading RIGHT offensive tackle. Use the second round pick for a DE or LB. Use both 3rd round picks to get a top 3 offensive guard. PRESTO, two upgrades on the offensive line. I'm happy, you're happy. Most pro RTs played LT in college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Yea, there are a few here who relentlessly follow others around criticizing their opinions. Its really sad that it gets to that. Honestly tho, I would be actually excited about the upcoming season should the Bills draft an OT-OG with the first two picks. Otherwise, i don't see them fielding a winning team...again...for the 14th year. I'm not #9 or bust for an OT. I just think that somehow, someway the line needs to be addressed better then it has so far. I just think you are under the impression that there is only one way to build an oline. Some posters are simply saying that a lot of good olinemen are found later in the draft and it's harder to find playmakers. and you're severely overrating how much difference o linemen make on a team's record. You can't have scrubs (Brown fit in that category) but you don't necessarily need to spend top picks or mega bucks on guys either. How are the Browns doing with Joe Thomas and Alex Mack? How about the dominant Bills with the great Jason Peters and Andy Levitre? How about Andy Levitre and their 1st round OG last year? The Broncos really missed Ryan Clady last year, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Admittedly, I'm nitpicking here...you're assuming Hairston starts at RT? Otherwise it'd be a 7th if it's Pears again. That's correct, I am assuming Hairston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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