KOKBILLS Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Nobody in their right mind expected the offense to get better with Fitz/Gailey gone and rookies at OC and QB. Nobody. Also, way to cherry pick cumulative stats for Stevie-12 games-Johnson and CJ-came out of and/or missed no less than three games--Spiller. Yawn... Really? Nobody expected better numbers? Nobody? Does that include Marrone and Hackett? Nobody? Come on... If you want to say that Hackett had a decent rookie year as an OC, all things considered, go right ahead...It's a free country...I'm not saying you don't have a point...But don't pretend there cannot be debate...19th in yards...22nd in points...28th passing...6-10...Despite being the the 2nd best run offense in the NFL in total yards the Bills were only 14th in yards per attempt...There's plenty of room for debate...Plenty... I'm not saying he did not do a decent job...In fact I said clearly he should be given credit for getting similar offensive numbers overall considering the drop-off from Stevie and Spiller...But I'm also not willing to ignore the fact that he did not get anything close to the production expected out of those two because they are clearly the Bills most talented offensive players...Mario improved under Pettine...Dareus improved under Pettine...CJ and Stevie accounted for more than 30 less yards combined per game under Hackett...It was a regression...Now, were there extenuating circumstances? Of course there were...Rookie QB's and all..I get it...But I'm far away from assuming Hackett is the next coming or anything of the sort...That's all...I'm not making assumptions any longer, or giving any benefits of the doubt, when it comes to this team...Winning will solve that...Anything less and it's all a bunch of rah rah garbage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjohns85 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I know it's been popular to bash the man, but I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt going forward. No, our offense wasn't dominant, but given what he had to work with I'd say he got respectable production out of them. Not only did he have a rookie QB with rookie WRs in Woods and Goodwin, and a 2nd yr project in TJ Graham, he managed an offense that ranked 19th in the league. And let's not forget, he's a rookie himself. What's impressive to me is that there was very little drop off when Tuel and Lewis took over at QB. I'm sure some will argue that he had 2 great RBs to carry the team, but I keep hearing how bad CJ sucks (which is weird to me b/c I think he's exceptional). I'm excited to see what he'll do next year with an offensive unit that has a year of experience playing together in his system. I think he is a terrible coordinator. Yes, CJ was injured for a large portion of the year, but GET HIM THE BALL IN SPACE. Seriously, is one of the most dynamic play-makers in the game, Why we choose to continuously run him up the gut? We need more creativity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Chan didn't do anything other than run a spread offense. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong......but didn't we not run things spread this year in order to provide better protection(and simpler plays) for our inexperienced rookie QB(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) I think he is a terrible coordinator. Yes, CJ was injured for a large portion of the year, but GET HIM THE BALL IN SPACE. Seriously, is one of the most dynamic play-makers in the game, Why we choose to continuously run him up the gut? We need more creativity. I wouldn't go so far as to call him terrible, he did have some issues. He was very predictable, and did run that mid guard run play 70% of the time. Why some fans are so enamored with him is easy to see. When the offense was clicking, QB making plays, run game unstoppable, O line actually opening holes, and giving the QB time in the pocket. Hackett's play calling worked well. OTOH, when the run game was stopped, when the RB's were getting tackled behind the LoS, when the QB had no time. The play calls stunk. There was never a plan B to get the run game going, get the passing game going, help the O line. Some games were a complete outright disaster. No creativity, no innovation as I saw the same offense all year. Edited January 13, 2014 by FeartheLosing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong......but didn't we not run things spread this year in order to provide better protection(and simpler plays) for our inexperienced rookie QB(s)? The Bills were supposed to run a "read option" hurry up type offense with a twist of west coast in it, meaning a pass first offense. Then problems arose when the starting QB had a bad wheel from pre season. Kinda screwed from the start to be able to utilize that style of running QB offense. From what I saw the Bills ran mostly a pro style, single setback, shotgun offense with the TE almost always in to block. When you saw a 3 receiver cluster on one side, one of those receivers was TE Scott Chandler. That is now referred to as a typical pro set single setback offense. With usually no more then 3 WR's on the field. Sorta like the old K-gun that kept a TE on the field. The Bills ran a "hurry up" fast paced offense to keep the opposing defense in the same defense to keep substitutions limited or non existent. So the the rookie QB's wouldn't need to read constantly changing complex defenses on 2nd & 3rd down. From Hackett I rarely saw the 4 WR sets like Gailey ran last season, and don't think I ever saw an empty backfield 5 WR set like Gailey used to frequently call. Now some people will say that a pro style offense has the QB under center, and the spread has the QB in shotgun. That is simply not the case with regards Chan Gaileys "spread" offense, as Its not that simple. Why Gaileys spread worked so well in the run game is that when you put that 4th WR on the field it then forces the defense to either cover that WR with a LBer or substitute a DB in for a LBer. This creates a mismatch that makes it easier for offense to exploit. Should the defense keep the LBer in then its a QB's dream match up. Once the DB comes in for the LBer it makes it easier to run the ball as a DB is more easily blocked then a LBer. That 4-5 WR set makes the defense either spread out the LBers or DB's to cover the extra receivers, and thus they have a harder time stacking the box to stop the run. Its like running against a constant nickle / dime defense. Chan Gailey's biggest failing was to get the ball in his play makers hands more often, SJ, CJ & FJax. His 4-5 receiver sets had no teeth because only one or two receivers were worth a damn. He even stated he should get the ball in both CJ's & FJax's hands to the tune of 15 to 20 times a game. Although he never did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Yawn... Really? Nobody expected better numbers? Nobody? Does that include Marrone and Hackett? Nobody? Come on... If you want to say that Hackett had a decent rookie year as an OC, all things considered, go right ahead...It's a free country...I'm not saying you don't have a point...But don't pretend there cannot be debate...19th in yards...22nd in points...28th passing...6-10...Despite being the the 2nd best run offense in the NFL in total yards the Bills were only 14th in yards per attempt...There's plenty of room for debate...Plenty... I'm not saying he did not do a decent job...In fact I said clearly he should be given credit for getting similar offensive numbers overall considering the drop-off from Stevie and Spiller...But I'm also not willing to ignore the fact that he did not get anything close to the production expected out of those two because they are clearly the Bills most talented offensive players...Mario improved under Pettine...Dareus improved under Pettine...CJ and Stevie accounted for more than 30 less yards combined per game under Hackett...It was a regression...Now, were there extenuating circumstances? Of course there were...Rookie QB's and all..I get it...But I'm far away from assuming Hackett is the next coming or anything of the sort...That's all...I'm not making assumptions any longer, or giving any benefits of the doubt, when it comes to this team...Winning will solve that...Anything less and it's all a bunch of rah rah garbage... Hackett said before the season that he was going to run CJ Spiller silly. Of course, the reality was that Spiller was gimpy. But, the plan sure sounded like it was to try and get even more production out of the most productive playmakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Fans had a problem with the play calls and the lack of touches called by Gailey, and not the spread offense. Uuuuuh...gripes about spread formation quick read offense went WAY beyond that. I think he is a terrible coordinator. Yes, CJ was injured for a large portion of the year, but GET HIM THE BALL IN SPACE. Seriously, is one of the most dynamic play-makers in the game, Why we choose to continuously run him up the gut? We need more creativity. There's that cure all again. It has to be that simple, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hackett said before the season that he was going to run CJ Spiller silly. Of course, the reality was that Spiller was gimpy. But, the plan sure sounded like it was to try and get even more production out of the most productive playmakers. Thank you... That's really all I'm trying to say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong......but didn't we not run things spread this year in order to provide better protection(and simpler plays) for our inexperienced rookie QB(s)? Yeah, my guess is they kept it simple in terms of routes and tried to have as much protection as possible for the young QB. So as much as people are trying to lambast Hackett for his "simple" offense it was pretty much a necessity with the young QBs and WRs. If you looked at the all 22s that were put up weekly you could see how the WRs or the QBs routinely weren't on the same page. Putting more guys in routes and having the QB make even quicker decisions with the ball probably wasn't the best choice so I'm not going to kill Hackett over it. Granted, I still don't like some of the things Hackett was doing. The read option with a gimpy EJ wasn't a good choice as it didn't fool anybody because EJ pretty much never kept the ball. And because the read option wasn't working to its full potential I'd have preferred to see EJ under center more often. His footwork (and consequently his accuracy) was much better when he took a traditional drop than when he was in the shotgun. That being said overall I agree with Hackett's conservative approach. Just look at the Seahawks and Niners. They run the ball more than the Bills and ride their defences to wins. It's the recipe for winning with young QBs. Unfortunately, unlike those two teams they didn't have a QB with two good wheels who was capable of running the read option like it should be run. Edited January 13, 2014 by MDH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Thank you... That's really all I'm trying to say... You're welcome. As for Stevie, there is this: http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2012/12/14/3766988/buffalo-bills-buddy-nix-stevie-johnson-slot-receiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) Yawn... Really? Nobody expected better numbers? Nobody? Does that include Marrone and Hackett? Nobody? Come on... If you want to say that Hackett had a decent rookie year as an OC, all things considered, go right ahead...It's a free country...I'm not saying you don't have a point...But don't pretend there cannot be debate...19th in yards...22nd in points...28th passing...6-10...Despite being the the 2nd best run offense in the NFL in total yards the Bills were only 14th in yards per attempt...There's plenty of room for debate...Plenty... What kind of production did we get from our running game for half of the season when it counted? Not very good production, even with the split time between a sometimes hurt CJ and a sometimes hurt FJ. That's not on the OC, my friend. Our offensive line wasn't performing nearly as efficiently as it was in the past for the running game (546 attempts, #1 in the league by far to get to your #2 ranking in rushing yards), which probably has a lot to do with our anemic passing game, something which really rests on our QB, TE and WR situations. We must be more balanced and talented in order to free up more room for our running game to MEAN something. Edited January 13, 2014 by BmoreBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) What kind of production did we get from our running game for half of the season when it counted? Not very good production, even with the split time between a sometimes hurt CJ and a sometimes hurt FJ. That's not on the OC, my friend. Our offensive line wasn't performing nearly as efficiently as it was in the past for the running game (546 attempts, #1 in the league by far to get to your #2 ranking in rushing yards), which probably has a lot to do with our anemic passing game, something which really rests on our QB, TE and WR situations. We must be more balanced and talented in order to free up more room for our running game to MEAN something. I don't know my friend...I think instead of saying it's not the OC, the proper way to say it is that it was all of the above...Then some...I do get that Hackett and Marrone were installing their system and it was the first year of that system so a drop-off could certainly be explained...But these two came riding into town on their "genius offensive-minds" horses, made a few really strange personnel moves (ie not giving David Nelson the minimum tender), and subsequently ended up with about the same Offensive output the Bills had in 2012...I could actually understand it a bit more if the new HC was a Defensive guy, but Marrone and Hackett came with such hyperbole that it was easy to imagine an improvement overall...And not only did we not get an improvement, we got a drop-off from two players we could least afford a drop-off from in production... As far as the O-Line goes sorry Bro...I done give Marrone an inch on that one...Ex O-Lineman, ex O-line Coach, ex OC...The (at times) poor play of the line is on him...If Marrone was all that they should have improved in that area, Levitre or not...I expected the Bills to be more like the Pats on the O-line with a bunch of grinders who were technically outstanding and played smart...Instead we got a mixed bag and an absolute ton of penalties... So anyway...Yes the Bills dropped off...NO it was not entirely on Marrone and Hackett...But it was partially on them for sure...And hopefully they learned some lessons...To me these guys came across as a bit over their heads in year one...If the same thing happens in year two I'm not sure I want to even think about giving them a year three... Edited January 13, 2014 by KOKBILLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) I don't know my friend...I think instead of saying it's not the OC, the proper way to say it is that it was all of the above...Then some...I do get that Hackett and Marrone were installing their system and it was the first year of that system so a drop-off could certainly be explained...But these two came riding into town on their "genius offensive-minds" horses, made a few really strange personnel moves (ie not giving David Nelson the minimum tender), and subsequently ended up with about the same Offensive output the Bills had in 2012...I could actually understand it a bit more if the new HC was a Defensive guy, but Marrone and Hackett came with such hyperbole that it was easy to imagine an improvement overall...And not only did we not get an improvement, we got a drop-off from two players we could least afford a drop-off from in production... David Nelson wasn't going to beat out T.J. Graham in the preseason (be honest), that's for sure, but now I hope the coaches have realized their blunder with Mr. Clueless Stone Hands. You're going to see a falloff with radical change in the coaching staff, so that's not really a hit on them in Year 1. As far as the O-Line goes sorry Bro...I done give Marrone an inch on that one...Ex O-Lineman, ex O-line Coach, ex OC...The (at times) poor play of the line is on him...If Marrone was all that they should have improved in that area, Levitre or not...I expected the Bills to be more like the Pats on the O-line with a bunch of grinders who were technically outstanding and played smart...Instead we got a mixed bag and an absolute ton of penalties... You ought to know that you can't magically coach up OLmen who aren't up to snuff, no matter how good you are. They evaluated their play all season and now know what they have and can fix it. So anyway...Yes the Bills dropped off...NO it was not entirely on Marrone and Hackett...But it was partially on them for sure...And hopefully they learned some lessons...To me these guys came across as a bit over their heads in year one...If the same thing happens in year two I'm not sure I want to even think about giving them a year three... My Year Two list is pretty simple.... 1. Get rid of Graham. 2. Upgrade the OL and LB corps. 3. Fix the special teams. Everything else I can deal with... if they don't fix these three problems, it's gonna be a long 2015. PS. I am EXCITED about what Moeaki could do for us if he suits up in Week 1. Edited January 14, 2014 by BmoreBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 David Nelson wasn't going to beat out T.J. Graham in the preseason (be honest), that's for sure, but now I hope the coaches have realized their blunder with Mr. Clueless Stone Hands. You're going to see a falloff with radical change in the coaching staff, so that's not really a hit on them in Year 1. You ought to know that you can't magically coach up OLmen who aren't up to snuff, no matter how good you are. They evaluated their play all season and now know what they have and can fix it. My Year Two list is pretty simple.... 1. Get rid of Graham. 2. Upgrade the OL and LB corps. 3. Fix the special teams. Everything else I can deal with... if they don't fix these three problems, it's gonna be a long 2015. PS. I am EXCITED about what Moeaki could do for us if he suits up in Week 1. David Nelson wasn't going to beat out T.J. Graham in the preseason (be honest), that's for sure, but now I hope the coaches have realized their blunder with Mr. Clueless Stone Hands. You're going to see a falloff with radical change in the coaching staff, so that's not really a hit on them in Year 1. You ought to know that you can't magically coach up OLmen who aren't up to snuff, no matter how good you are. They evaluated their play all season and now know what they have and can fix it. My Year Two list is pretty simple.... 1. Get rid of Graham. 2. Upgrade the OL and LB corps. 3. Fix the special teams. Everything else I can deal with... if they don't fix these three problems, it's gonna be a long 2015. PS. I am EXCITED about what Moeaki could do for us if he suits up in Week 1. I pretty much agree, but let me fix one part. 1. Get rid of Graham 2, Draft Sammy Watkins 3. Upgrafe the OL and LB corps 4. Fix special teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 You ought to know that you can't magically coach up OLmen who aren't up to snuff, no matter how good you are. They evaluated their play all season and now know what they have and can fix it. Apparently, Marrone didn't get that memo.... considering he tried to do exactly that this year. Plus, it looks like this off season he is going to try and magically coach up the players they found on the waiver wire after they released Brown & Young. Nothing against you Bmore, its just that I kept hearing this same stuff during Gailey's first season, and we all know what happened with him. Anyway, coaches that are good at their jobs don't need a full season to evaluate and determine if a player is going to be able to play at a high level in the NFL. All they need is previous game tapes or a few practices in which they actually study the players and their techniques. Either a player has good footwork, good hands, proper technique or he doesn't. Either he can hold a block, and run block out he can't. Nothing mystical about it. That Buffalo Bills D line has some pretty good players on it, and if they are practicing hard then the players on the O line who can't do their jobs blocking them would stand out again, and again. Unless of course, if nobody is paying attention. I mean people like the HC, the OC, the O line coach, the D line coach. How does a player as bad as Colin Brown, or his backup Sam Young were, slip thru the system for that length of time? They had all off season, training camp, pre season. I just don't get it! This exact same thing happened in 2010 in Gailey's first year with Cornell Green, and like I said, we all know what happened to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Apparently, Marrone didn't get that memo.... considering he tried to do exactly that this year. Plus, it looks like this off season he is going to try and magically coach up the players they found on the waiver wire after they released Brown & Young. Nothing against you Bmore, its just that I kept hearing this same stuff during Gailey's first season, and we all know what happened with him. Anyway, coaches that are good at their jobs don't need a full season to evaluate and determine if a player is going to be able to play at a high level in the NFL. All they need is previous game tapes or a few practices in which they actually study the players and their techniques. Either a player has good footwork, good hands, proper technique or he doesn't. Either he can hold a block, and run block out he can't. Nothing mystical about it. In one year, our team was massively upgraded by adding Robert Woods, Marquise Goodwin, Kiko Alonso, and E.J. Manuel. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and avoid the Gailey comparisons because Whaley seems to have his stuff together, and that pleases me greatly. After the draft and free agency period this should be revisited, but for now I'm trusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 In one year, our team was massively upgraded by adding Robert Woods, Marquise Goodwin, Kiko Alonso, and E.J. Manuel. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and avoid the Gailey comparisons because Whaley seems to have his stuff together, and that pleases me greatly. After the draft and free agency period this should be revisited, but for now I'm trusting. Hey, I agree as I think new GM Doug Whaley did a spectacular job with the 2013 draft, and with free agency. The trade with the Colts for Jerry Hughes paid off big time with 10 sacks. Manny Lawson, Alan Branch, Dan Carpenter & Thad Lewis. Re-signing Eric Wood, McKlelvin. Its not Whaley I'm faulting for the many mistakes made during this past season, its the new HC. I also tend to think that Marrone might have been influenced to keep certain players by Buddy Nix. Still, while Marrone does deserve a grace period of learning to become a top NFL head coach. This is the NFL, which stands for Not For Long. Last years 6-10 was not acceptable to many fans who thought the team could have made the playoffs this season, and they just might have if not for those many mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I pretty much agree, but let me fix one part. 1. Get rid of Graham 2, Draft Sammy Watkins 3. Upgrafe the OL and LB corps 4. Fix special teams. Well...If you want Watkins start thinking about what you're willing to give up to get him...Because if he runs what he says he can run at Indy...he's not going to be around at #9... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I wasn't ready to run Hackett out of town like many. However I completely missed that he was offensive quality control coach under Dick Jauron... That's a strike against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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