2014 Draft Defensive Line

[papazoid]

Listen I get the QB talk in the first round. No team has drafted a QB in the first round in back to back years. I'm not sold on Manuel either but you have to be delusional to entertain the idea that the Bills will draft a QB in the first in 2014.

So putting aside silly fantasies that won't happen, what do you in reality think will happen with the 2014 first?

 

 

I don't agree with your WAR at all. AJ Green and Julio Jones are two prime examples. Andy Dalton is not a great QB but the Bungals were in line to capture the AFC North.

As much as I'm not sold on Manuel I don't think he will be worse than Dalton. Look at what happened to the ATL offense when Julio Jones went down.

 

If the Bills beat Miami at home they're only 3 wins out of the playoffs. I think Mike Evans gives you a solid 2 WAR. Especially given the talent around him. Now Goodwin gets singled with less chance of Safety help. Now you can't load the box on for Spiller and Freddy and its not as easy to Shadow them out of the backfield because you have to worry about a receiver like Evans getting open and destroying you.

 

So I hear you on QB but I think you're underestimating the value of big WR like AJ Green, Julio Jones or hopefully the Bills first round pick in 2014, Mike Evans.

 

 

let's assume you are correct and i tend to agree with ya, the bills do not use their first round pick on a QB.

 

then the next best thing is to help the current qb some way.....either by drafting a WR or OL.

 

i would pick/hope that a Left Tackle was the BPA at that time. play him at RT, move pears to LG. this not only gives EJ more time to throw, but it also improves our run game.

 

i have a strong bias towards not picking WR's, RB's & DB's in the first round.

Edited December 17, 2013 by papazoid

[1B4IDie]

let's assume you are correct and i tend to agree with ya, the bills do not use their first round pick on a QB.

 

then the next best thing is to help that qb some way.....either by drafting a WR or OL.

 

i would pick/hope that a Left Tackle was the BPA at that time. play him at RT, move pears to LG. this not only gives EJ more time to throw, but it also improves our run game.

 

i have a strong bias towards not picking WR's, RB's & DB's in the first round.

I'm with you there with regards to WR.

I'm not saying take Mike Evans, WR Texas A&M and if he is not there then the next available. That would be a mistake. If Sammy Watkins, WR Clemson was drafted. I would lose my ****. That is a horrible pick on this team that is loaded with quick fast WR-like players.

I'm being very specific here. Seferian-Jenkins is probably the only other player in that BIG, Hard to cover field stretcher but he is going to be slow. Like Jimmy Graham could run circles around him while they both ran up field. It makes me a little nervous to spend a 1st on a player that is really similar to Chandler just with a higher ceiling. (People will kill me for saying that but it is true AS-K's "floor" is a Chandler clone, his ceiling is a notch under Gronk but not Gronk)

 

So don't take any RB, WR or DB but definitely take a freak with sticky hands like Mike Evans (again his 40 time is going to be relevant, its hard for me to tell his game speed in comparison to NFL players because he is so big. It looks like he is not running fast but he blows by college DBs. I don't know if thats because teh college DBs are scrubs and Mike Evans is not fast or because he is fast and just looks slow because he is so big. The 40 time will help to give an idea for me atleast where he really fits as far as speed goes)

 

 

SO that brings us to O-Line. Yeah man that needs an upgrade. But you can get a solid LG in the 3rd or 4th. I wouldn't blow a 1st on that position position either.

 

IF Mike Evans or A S-F are gone when you pick then, the Bills could go anywhere thats where Khalil Mack, CJ Mosely, and the 'Bama LT Cyrus could be options.

The Ravens drafted "Blind Side" in the end of the 1st as a LT prospect and his stayed at RT mos of career. Cordy Glenn is a stud but you can do far worse things than have two stud Tackles.

 

I'm personally laser focused on Mike EVans early for the 2014 draft but after him, the 2014 draft is pretty wide open for the Bills team.

[RyanC883]

Aaron Donald. The ACC Defensive player of the year.

 

http://www.pittsburghpanthers.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/121113aaa.html

[Rob's House]

Yes, I'm just the village idiot here, aren't I? Man, it's awfully tough to pick up on your unique, edgy brand of humor...please, please let me in on the joke that I so obviously do not get...

I can't find the full clip (this one cuts off before Woody brings us "Gladys Knight and the Pimps") but you get the idea.

 

[ColdBlueNorth]

As my son would say, I "nerfed" the players' name. It was bugging me, but through the process of elimination of the D Linemen you can see in the clips that I found I believe the DT that got mandled by the Jags center was either Branch or Charles maybe someone has a better high res view.

 

I have looked at that play more than I care to admit because it irks me how every RB seems to be able to gash our defense and I am trying to understand is it scheme or personnel that is failing. The Robinson run seemed like a classic example of how running backs just seem to blow through our line untouched.

 

When the defense first lines up they had #97 Corbin Bryant heads-up on the guard to the play side and Mario playing the 6 technique, then presnap Mario moves back, Bryant shifts out to the 6, and Mario takes a 2-point stance slightly behind him more 5 technique. So basically on the line they leave the playside guard uncovered and Bryant is shading outside shoulder the RT.

 

The Jags RT takes Bryant out - Bryant is on his outside shoulder so is easy to seal him outside, and this is where it gets messy - I have no idea what Mario was trying to do on the play because it just looks like he hides behind Bryant and gets his inside shoulder hit by the lead block of the FB; he definitely did not make a real effort to fill the gap and take on the FB and even pop warner boys know to key on the fullback because he is blocking for someone.

 

The net result was that Kiko gets swallowed by an unblocked guard while the nose, Branch or Charles, was sealed off to the left of the play and pancaked by the center... The reason Robinson shot out of the backfield like he was fired out of a canon was there was just such a huge gap between Dareus who was still on his feet but was on the strong side away from the play and the sealed off Bryant/Mario on the weakside. The only ones with a real shot of doing anything about it were either Mario or the DT over center but they both epically failed.

 

I don't like Mario's effort on that play at all, and I think the scheme was designed so that Mario and the DT who shifted to NT could and should stop that run - if Mario hadn't gone all Nancy on the play and the player lined up over center was capable of holding his ground and not getting turned. By design Kiko was going to end up taking on an unblocked guard - I don't expect him to win those match ups.

 

Mario isn't going anywhere and he is a decent pass rusher, but his effort on that play makes me think that Pettine may want to limit putting him in a position where he has to act more like an extra MLB. I get the idea, but it "aint" working. Also, they need a DT that can play nose.

Edited December 18, 2013 by ColdBlueNorth

[ColdBlueNorth]

Spenser Johnson was a free agent last offseason and the Bills chose not to resign him

 

Yep. My bad... took a inadvertent trip down memory lane.

[Boludo]

bills lead the nfl in sacks and the man is worried about drafting a d-lineman

[papazoid]

bills lead the nfl in sacks and the man is worried about drafting a d-lineman

 

just a NOSE Tackle who can stop the run......

 

 

bills are ranked around 25th of 32 in rushing defense.

[Beerball]

 

 

just a NOSE Tackle who can stop the run......

 

 

bills are ranked around 25th of 32 in rushing defense.

I agree with your post upthread. This team's biggest needs are O-line & TE/WR. We'll be picking too early for a TE so unless another trade back grab the best O-lineman available and plug him in. Regarding our rush defense...most of the long plays that I remember the team giving up are not up the gut. A NT ain't helping on those off tackle runs.

[RyanC883]

bills lead the nfl in sacks and the man is worried about drafting a d-lineman

 

our run D is pretty bad. A player like Aaron Donald, likely available in the top of the second round, helps address that immensely.

[The Big Cat]

just a NOSE Tackle who can stop the run......

 

 

bills are ranked around 25th of 32 in rushing defense.

I agree with your post upthread. This team's biggest needs are O-line & TE/WR. We'll be picking too early for a TE so unless another trade back grab the best O-lineman available and plug him in. Regarding our rush defense...most of the long plays that I remember the team giving up are not up the gut. A NT ain't helping on those off tackle runs.

 

Kiko was a Will who played his way inside. Get a true inside guy (I don't know WHERE Kiko's storing that "240" pounds of his), a stout bone crusher who can plug and stuff, and let Kiko run wild on the weak side with Manny setting the strong side edge. THAT--way more so than any DLineman--will fix our run defense, probably even turn it top 5-10.

[1B4IDie]

Kiko was a Will who played his way inside. Get a true inside guy (I don't know WHERE Kiko's storing that "240" pounds of his), a stout bone crusher who can plug and stuff, and let Kiko run wild on the weak side with Manny setting the strong side edge. THAT--way more so than any DLineman--will fix our run defense, probably even turn it top 5-10.

Would you still have Kiko defacto Captain and Call the Plays in your suggested setup?

 

I think the concept of Pettine's defense is you want a fast sure tackler that can go sideline to sideline and clean up anything in that hybrid Inside/MLB position.

 

Kiko fits that to a tee.

 

What you're calling for sound like something out of a Dick LeBeau defense.

 

Not that I disagree with the concept, just that I don't if the D-Co has that philosophy.

 

God forbid, but if Kiko went down the whole defense would have to change, (Moats, Bradham or anyone else on the roster can't go sideline to sideline out of the LB spot)

Edited December 18, 2013 by Why So Serious?

[Beerball]

 

 

 

Kiko was a Will who played his way inside. Get a true inside guy (I don't know WHERE Kiko's storing that "240" pounds of his), a stout bone crusher who can plug and stuff, and let Kiko run wild on the weak side with Manny setting the strong side edge. THAT--way more so than any DLineman--will fix our run defense, probably even turn it top 5-10.

I really hesitate to say that I agree with you, but I agree with you . I've been calling for a MLB, move Kiko outside. He'll still be an every down player because he would shift inside on passing downs.

[The Big Cat]

Would you still have Kiko defacto Captain and Call the Plays in your suggested setup?

 

I think the concept of Pettine's defense is you want a fast sure tackler that can go sideline to sideline and clean up anything in that hybrid Inside/MLB position.

 

Kiko fits that to a tee.

 

What you're calling for sound like something out of a Dick LeBeau defense.

 

Not that I disagree with the concept, just that I don't if the D-Co has that philosophy.

 

I go back to what the original intent with Kiko was: weak side. Unfortunately,he's by far the best option we have for the middle right now.

 

So, it was sort of his by default.

 

Would he still call plays as a weakside guy? Sure, why not?

 

But his best attribute is reading and reacting. He doesn't exactly make blockers fly off him, and when he misreads or over-runs, we're in a heap of trouble.

 

I don't know what philosophy you're referring to when it comes to LB play, to be honest. Plus, we probably play mostly out of Nickel anyways.

 

I really hesitate to say that I agree with you, but I agree with you . I've been calling for a MLB, move Kiko outside. He'll still be an every down player because he would shift inside on passing downs.

 

Does Lawson come out in Nickel situations then? Is Kiko the dime LB?

[H2o]

was that the play that bradham ran into kiko and they both just fell over? the team needs a better LB to go inside with kiko and i think that our run D would be much better.

 

My thought would be move Kyle and and Dareus to DE's, Mario and Hughes @ OLB's, get Brandon Spikes to bang @ ILB with Kiko, draft a big boy like Louis Nix from Notre Dame in the 1st, and we can go with the all out attacking 3-4 like Pettine was running in NY. All of these would be IF we are going to focus on the Defense early.

[Beerball]

 

 

I go back to what the original intent with Kiko was: weak side. Unfortunately,he's by far the best option we have for the middle right now.

 

So, it was sort of his by default.

 

Would he still call plays as a weakside guy? Sure, why not?

 

But his best attribute is reading and reacting. He doesn't exactly make blockers fly off him, and when he misreads or over-runs, we're in a heap of trouble.

 

I don't know what philosophy you're referring to when it comes to LB play, to be honest. Plus, we probably play mostly out of Nickel anyways.

 

 

 

Does Lawson come out in Nickel situations then? Is Kiko the dime LB?

Move your as yet unclaimed MLB off the field.

[1B4IDie]

I go back to what the original intent with Kiko was: weak side. Unfortunately,he's by far the best option we have for the middle right now.

 

So, it was sort of his by default.

 

Would he still call plays as a weakside guy? Sure, why not?

 

But his best attribute is reading and reacting. He doesn't exactly make blockers fly off him, and when he misreads or over-runs, we're in a heap of trouble.

 

I don't know what philosophy you're referring to when it comes to LB play, to be honest. Plus, we probably play mostly out of Nickel anyways.

I mean Kiko doned the Hybrid MLB from OTAs to Week 14, so I'm not sure I follow the weakside statement. Do you mean you think he was drafted to be a WILL in April 2013 then by summer it was clear he was our best option for the MLB? So now find a better MIKE and put KIKO at WIL?

 

I mean if you can find a better MIKE than Kiko, sure but thats a tall order.

 

Either way the WILL in this defense is pretty garbage. So one way or the other that needs to be upgraded if thats by pushing Kiko over and by upgrading the MIKE or by getting better LBs for the WILL, they need to do something.

 

The one thing is sure Free Agents are going to want to play for this defense. We lead the league in Sacks and INTs. Pettine revived Lawson, and Hughes career. Like Hughes personally will be paid a substantial amount of money in 2015 and if he were still on the Colts he would be training camp fodder. So not only should Hughes give Pettine a cut of his contract but other players will take note.

[Wayne Cubed]

I go back to what the original intent with Kiko was: weak side. Unfortunately,he's by far the best option we have for the middle right now.

 

So, it was sort of his by default.

 

Would he still call plays as a weakside guy? Sure, why not?

 

But his best attribute is reading and reacting. He doesn't exactly make blockers fly off him, and when he misreads or over-runs, we're in a heap of trouble.

 

I don't know what philosophy you're referring to when it comes to LB play, to be honest. Plus, we probably play mostly out of Nickel anyways.

 

I think people get confused with the weakside or Will LB in Pettine's scheme. Kiko would still be an ILB but would play more or a read and react role, sideline to sideline and wouldn't have to take on blockers like the Mike LB would. He wouldn't be kicked "outside". The Will role in Pettine's scheme is still an ILB.

 

I personally don't think he has a problem taking on lineman, the problem is Moats is terrible at reacting and making the tackles. Kiko overpersues sometimes but he isn't at all a bad Mike LB. Personally they could draft Khalil Mack and put him at Will and that would solve a lot of the problems, IMO.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Wayne Cubed

[thebandit27]

I really hesitate to say that I agree with you, but I agree with you . I've been calling for a MLB, move Kiko outside. He'll still be an every down player because he would shift inside on passing downs.

 

I know it's semantics; I just think it's an important distinction to draw: getting a bigger MLB and moving Kiko to the Will spot does NOT mean moving him outside. The Will in Pettine's defense is a 3-4 inside 'backer; the Sam is the only traditional 4-3 OLB in Pettine's scheme (Lawson).

 

It's a hybrid that uses both 4-3 and 3-4 LB types

 

I think people get confused with the weakside or Will LB in Pettine's scheme. Kiko would still be an ILB but would play more or a read and react role, sideline to sideline and wouldn't have to take on blockers like the Mike LB would. He wouldn't be kicked "outside". The Will role in Pettine's scheme is still an ILB.

 

I personally don't think he has a problem taking on lineman, the problem is Moats is terrible at reacting and making the tackles. Kiko overpersues sometimes but he isn't at all a bad Mike LB. Personally they could draft Khalil Mack and put him at Will and that would solve a lot of the problems, IMO.

 

Good job Wayne for describing it better than I did.

[The Big Cat]

I mean Kiko doned the Hybrid MLB from OTAs to Week 14, so I'm not sure I follow the weakside statement. Do you mean you think he was drafted to be a WILL in April 2013 then by summer it was clear he was our best option for the MLB? So now find a better MIKE and put KIKO at WIL?

 

I mean if you can find a better MIKE than Kiko, sure but thats a tall order.

 

Either way the WILL in this defense is pretty garbage. So one way or the other that needs to be upgraded if thats by pushing Kiko over and by upgrading the MIKE or by getting better LBs for the WILL, they need to do something.

 

The one thing is sure Free Agents are going to want to play for this defense. We lead the league in Sacks and INTs. Pettine revived Lawson, and Hughes career. Like Hughes personally will be paid a substantial amount of money in 2015 and if he were still on the Colts he would be training camp fodder. So not only should Hughes give Pettine a cut of his contract but other players will take note.

 

We don't neccesarily need a LB as good or better than Kiko. You're right, that would be at tall order. We need linebacker(s) better than Moats and Bradham: not so tall.

 

I think people get confused with the weakside or Will LB in Pettine's scheme. Kiko would still be an ILB but would play more or a read and react role, sideline to sideline and wouldn't have to take on blockers like the Mike LB would. He wouldn't be kicked "outside". The Will role in Pettine's scheme is still an ILB.

 

I personally don't think he has a problem taking on lineman, the problem is Moats is terrible at reacting and making the tackles. Kiko overpersues sometimes but he isn't at all a bad Mike LB. Personally they could draft Khalil Mack and put him at Will and that would solve a lot of the problems, IMO.

 

I always thought Khalil was classic Sam/Blitzing LB

 

I know it's semantics; I just think it's an important distinction to draw: getting a bigger MLB and moving Kiko to the Will spot does NOT mean moving him outside. The Will in Pettine's defense is a 3-4 inside 'backer; the Sam is the only traditional 4-3 OLB in Pettine's scheme (Lawson).

 

It's a hybrid that uses both 4-3 and 3-4 LB types

 

 

 

Good job Wayne for describing it better than I did.

 

Either way, Kiko and Lawson are fine, but we need depth at both their positions, and a better guy 'inside' to help our run d.