Hazed and Amuzed Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I think mocking people like myself who think like this is bollocks, but whatever. I mock a losers mentality, if you take it personally then you should take a look at that. Lets take a look at a few recent super bowl winning teams that are known as teams that build through the draft: Steelers Ravens Giants Patriots Want to take a guess which teams have picked in the top 5 in the last 20 years? Only 1. The Gints in 2004 picked #4. The last time the Steelers or GB picked in the top 5 was 1989 and the last time the Pats did was 1994. So please elaborate on how finishing with a higher draft pick equates to winning a championship. Where you draft has a much smaller roll than who's doing the drafting and looking back at our last draft I'm willing to give up a few spots for a couple of wins. I think Whaley did well this time around and I'm willing to bet we have another good draft regardless of where we pick, whether it be 6 or 13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I mock a losers mentality, if you take it personally then you should take a look at that. Lets take a look at a few recent super bowl winning teams that are known as teams that build through the draft: Steelers Ravens Giants Patriots Want to take a guess which teams have picked in the top 5 in the last 20 years? Only 1. The Gints in 2004 picked #4. The last time the Steelers or GB picked in the top 5 was 1989 and the last time the Pats did was 1994. So please elaborate on how finishing with a higher draft pick equates to winning a championship. Where you draft has a much smaller roll than who's doing the drafting and looking back at our last draft I'm willing to give up a few spots for a couple of wins. I think Whaley did well this time around and I'm willing to bet we have another good draft regardless of where we pick, whether it be 6 or 13. The draft is a crap shot. People are silly to believe it's anything but. Aaron Curry was the safe pick and went #3 overall. He was a giant bust. It happens all the time. Personally if I was in charge, I'd load up on picks and hope to get some steals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Let me see....a rookie QB who missed half the pre-season and a third of the regular season...who has played behind a somewhat questionable interior line...under a 1st year head coach and 1st year offensive coordinator who are still learning the strengths and weaknesses of their personnel...on a team with virtually no tight end...with receivers and running backs that have spent most of the season hobbled by one injury or another...hmmmm.... I am not making excuses, I am simply being realistic. I have no idea whether EJ is going to be a top quality QB or not. There have been times he has looked awful and times he has looked great. My point is, given the circumstances, I do not think it is possible to make an accurate assessment at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 EJ ALWAYS starts slow. That being said, he threw the ball with authority today Which is why the comparison to Trent Edwards is hilarious. One glaring difference is that Trent (and Fitz, for that matter) often started out the game strong with one scripted drive, then fell apart over the course of the game. EJ seems to get stronger and trust his instincts more over the course of the game, and he tends to come through more often under pressure (though not exactly when he's under siege due to OL play). Food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Let me see....a rookie QB who missed half the pre-season and a third of the regular season...who has played behind a somewhat questionable interior line...under a 1st year head coach and 1st year offensive coordinator who are still learning the strengths and weaknesses of their personnel...on a team with virtually no tight end...with receivers and running backs that have spent most of the season hobbled by one injury or another...hmmmm.... I am not making excuses, I am simply being realistic. I have no idea whether EJ is going to be a top quality QB or not. There have been times he has looked awful and times he has looked great. My point is, given the circumstances, I do not think it is possible to make an accurate assessment at this point. Stop being reasonable. You will be accused of being an EJ apologist (though why any Bills fan would want Manuel to fail is beyond me). EJ Manuel is not Peyton Manning, thus, he is a bust and the 1st round pick QB we draft this year will be much better. Fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Let me see....a rookie QB who missed half the pre-season and a third of the regular season...who has played behind a somewhat questionable interior line...under a 1st year head coach and 1st year offensive coordinator who are still learning the strengths and weaknesses of their personnel...on a team with virtually no tight end...with receivers and running backs that have spent most of the season hobbled by one injury or another...hmmmm.... I am not making excuses, I am simply being realistic. I have no idea whether EJ is going to be a top quality QB or not. There have been times he has looked awful and times he has looked great. My point is, given the circumstances, I do not think it is possible to make an accurate assessment at this point. People like you and I have just never applied the "eye test," aka the favorite nonsense of every erudite and thoughtful poster here. Stop being reasonable. You will be accused of being an EJ apologist (though why any Bills fan would want Manuel to fail is beyond me). EJ Manuel is not Peyton Manning, thus, he is a bust and the 1st round pick QB we draft this year will be much better. Fact. Doesn't this sh-- ring like a new car commercial every year? THERE'S NEVER BEEN A BETTER TIME TO BUY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Which is why the comparison to Trent Edwards is hilarious. One glaring difference is that Trent (and Fitz, for that matter) often started out the game strong with one scripted drive, then fell apart over the course of the game. EJ seems to get stronger and trust his instincts more over the course of the game, and he tends to come through more often under pressure (though not exactly when he's under siege due to OL play). Food for thought. Manuel takes way more shots down field as well. And once he gets his timing right with Goodwin, we are going to have a major weapon that will be hard to stop. Marrone needs to send film to the league because the only way teams can stop Goodwin going deep is by illegally contacting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 The draft is a crap shot. People are silly to believe it's anything but. Aaron Curry was the safe pick and went #3 overall. He was a giant bust. It happens all the time. Personally if I was in charge, I'd load up on picks and hope to get some steals. I know calling it a crap shoot is your thing CB, but what Hazed implied is true. There are teams that are statistically better than average at finding truly productive players[*] in the draft and there are teams, like the Bills, that are worse. [*] Not meant to imply the drafting of short-term roster backfillers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I know calling it a crap shoot is your thing CB, but what Hazed implied is true. There are teams that are statistically better than average at finding truly productive players[*] in the draft and there are teams, like the Bills, that are worse. [*] Not meant to imply the drafting of short-term roster backfillers. The draft doesn't occur in a vacuum, though. Hard to draft consistently when you are doing so for a new regime (or even just a new DC) every few seasons. I think we need to be prepared to give Whaley and Marrone a lot of rope to see this through, lest we fall into the same trap and start the cycle all over again. Despite people's proclamations that they aren't young or that they should be able to turn it around quickly, I think it's very difficult to find a situation where you have most of the players and just need a culture change. Most of the time you're going to need a season to identify who stays and who goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I know calling it a crap shoot is your thing CB, but what Hazed implied is true. There are teams that are statistically better than average at finding truly productive players[*] in the draft and there are teams, like the Bills, that are worse. [*] Not meant to imply the drafting of short-term roster backfillers. Tom Brady in the 6th made the Pats. Aaron Rodgers, projected #1 overall, fell to the #24 and the Pack drafted him. Made their team. Russell Wilson went in the 3rd, took the Seahwaks to another level. Kaepernick goes in the 2nd. Yup, the draft is a crapshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Give it up bro. Manuel haters are always going to find faults in a rookie QB who is still learning the game. He is going to have good and bad games. Sometimes mixed play in the same game. I thought he did some great things, and with experience he'll grow on those. Many here just don't get it. Name the top 3 QBs in the game today? I'd say Brees, Brady, Manning. Maybe Rodgers factors in here instead? Guess which one had a better QBR and more starts his rookie year. Guess which one won more games as a rookie? Answer: none of the above. EJ has all the physical attributes to be one of the best. What will determine whether he gets there or not is his desire to be the best and willingness to out work everyone to get there. Stay tuned..... It could be a fun ride or it could be a bumpy one. It's all up to EJ and how he spends his off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Tom Brady in the 6th made the Pats. Aaron Rodgers, projected #1 overall, fell to the #24 and the Pack drafted him. Made their team. Russell Wilson went in the 3rd, took the Seahwaks to another level. Kaepernick goes in the 2nd. Yup, the draft is a crapshoot. I think there's an art to it in that you need guys who fit in with what your team does, and you need for your team to have some belief in the guy. Russell Wilson is, to me, a bigger outlier than Brady, if that can be believed. He was first-round talent in a third or fourth rounder's frame. If he went to a team where he was going to be discounted for his height, he probably wouldn't have made it. Carroll made it clear that he was going to give him a chance, even if he didn't want to hand the rookie the job in an ideal world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Tom Brady in the 6th made the Pats. Aaron Rodgers, projected #1 overall, fell to the #24 and the Pack drafted him. Made their team. Russell Wilson went in the 3rd, took the Seahwaks to another level. Kaepernick goes in the 2nd. Yup, the draft is a crapshoot. No, you just proved that you need to find a good QB to be a competitive team. Something that the Bills have not put a priority on between 2004 and 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 No, you just proved that you need to find a good QB to be a competitive team. Something that the Bills have not put a priority on between 2004 and 2013. Trent Edwards? I didn't think he was good, but I did think they were trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 No, you just proved that you need to find a good QB to be a competitive team. Something that the Bills have not put a priority on between 2004 and 2013. I agreed with that 100%. Taking 3 1st round QBs in 30 years is not the recipe for finding success. At the same time, giving up on a 1st round QB after 1 year is just as foolish. Trent Edwards? I didn't think he was good, but I did think they were trying. I think Trent should have been Frank Reich in a perfect world. Edwards looked the part but he was very flawed coming out of college. I think the draft for QBs was one of the worst ones ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 The last time the Steelers or GB picked in the top 5 was 1989 AJ hawk was 5th overall. He's been playing for 25 years? Damn hgh is good schitt Trent Edwards? I didn't think he was good, but I did think they were trying. He was a practice superstar. Just couldn't play without the red "you can't hit me" jersey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I have to admit that I'm on the EJ bandwagon because of the throws he's capable of making. How long did we wait for Fitz and Trent to hit those 20 yard outs and mid-range seams? That said, there are serious flaws in EJ's game. The absolute biggest one is that he has difficulty feeling pressure, and I think fumbles will be a bigger problem than INTs in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I have to admit that I'm on the EJ bandwagon because of the throws he's capable of making. How long did we wait for Fitz and Trent to hit those 20 yard outs and mid-range seams? That said, there are serious flaws in EJ's game. The absolute biggest one is that he has difficulty feeling pressure, and I think fumbles will be a bigger problem than INTs in the long run. Agreed and even the ones who support EJ (which again if you're a Bills fan, why wouldn't you) know he's a work in progress. I think the feeling of pressure is something you gain with more experience. EJ has 6 fumbles, Peyton has 10. I'd love to see a breakdown of rookie QBs and their turnovers. Besides the last 2 games, EJ has done a very good job of taking care of the football. In fact, one of my concerns is he's too cautious at times. Personally, I love deep passes but even if it's intercepted, it's like a punt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 (edited) Trent Edwards? I didn't think he was good, but I did think they were trying. Trying in the most feeble sense of the word. Edwards was taken as insurance for Losman. He was not taken to compete for the strating job. Fitzpatrick was signed as a backup and couldn't beat out Edwards in preseason. There's a decade of futility at the QB position, yet everyone in the front office was satisfied with the results until it hit them in the face and forced them to invest a high pick in the weakest QB draft in 15 years. Edited December 16, 2013 by GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Trying in the most feeble sense of the word. Edwards was taken as insurance for Losman not to compete for the job. Fitzpatrick was signed as a backup and couldn't beat out Edwards in preseason. There's a decade of futility at the QB position, yet everyone in the front office was satisfied with the results until it hit them in the face and forced them to invest a high pick in the weakest QB draft in 15 years. IDK, I'm of the opinion this next draft will be just as weak at QB, when it all plays out. It may be deep, but there isn't star talent at the top, much like this past year. There has already been a couple draft guys come out and say Bridgewater (who is the "top" QB) doesn't look like franchise material. I think as more experts pick apart their games, they'll find flaws and holes that'll knock them down a bit. If you think about it, Boyd, had he come out last year, would have been the top QB pick. Now he might be lucky to get picked in the 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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