cut EJ loose

[4BillsintheBurgh]

I want more of this past Sunday, that's the only way he's going to improve. As far as I'm concerned he is starting his second year now. They need to have the same type of game plan, eg don't protect him and let him try to run the offense as a veteran qb. EJ needs to have the motivation of these performances so he can be crystal clear on what he needs to do to become an nfl qb. If he can't overcome the mental burden of improving he won't be a good starter anyway. If he doesn't start making throws by the end of next year then you can start looking in another direction.

[Fan in San Diego]

please read the original post

you're not the first reader that the title confused

 

Got it, there are so many threads calling to cut him. Way to early for that.

[thewildrabbit]

i think many of us are underestimating EJ's ability to make plays with both his feet and his head. check out Gruden's cutups/talking points on his option play, and his pre-snap recognition (specifically his play against ND when an injury limited his playbook).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GkRIqTUzCwk

 

This is the player who many thought was the sleeper in the 2013 QB draft class. Marrone and Hackett have been charged with refining his mechanics and improving his intelligence as an NFL pocket passer. what's been lost in translation is his ability to make plays. after losing their projected franchise QB to injury on two separate occasions, they reined that in - preferring to keep him on the field to learn how to play with his head.. but it wasn't the cerebral EJ alone that was drafted in round 1 - it was the total package that made him an attractive pick.

EJ was an athlete QB who many thought graded as a 3rd or 4th round pick before the senior bowl. That he needed a lot of development, and wasn't nearly NFL ready. After the Senior Bowl EJ's grade went up simply because he was the best QB is a very bad QB class.

 

C'mom man, 7 of 10 passes for 71 yards, one TD got him the MVP really?

 

Read This... http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000131167/article/quarterbacks-underwhelm-analysts-at-senior-bowl

 

No offense but you are looking at EJ the wrong way. He could do very well each week "if" he had a consistent viable run attack to take the pressure away from him, one that could make first downs. Go back and look at the Bills first downs by running, they had only one all game.

"IF" he had a viable O line that wasn't manhandled every other game.

"IF" he had a receiver corps that had a Vincent Jackson type WR.

The facts are he doesn't have all those supporting players, and his OC is counting on EJ to try and win the game when he is clearly under great duress.

 

The very last thing the coaches should do is open up the passing offense. The first thing they should do is work on making the run game the priority on not just having the RB's slam into the backs of the linemen. But to make first down after first down by running like they did against the Chiefs. The coaches need to open up the run game with the spread offense, making opposing defenses unable to stack the box to stop the run. Once the team is running it successfully then start passing.

 

 

BTW, Jon Gruden is not someone I would give a rookie QB to develop. The biggest reason the guy failed in Tampa Bay is he would throw a 300+ play playbook at the rookie and expect him to memorize every play. So when he felt like calling some obscure play during a game the rookie would know which one to run. The problem was that no rookie he ever developed went on to became a success.

[Boatdrinks]

Stevie is our tallest WR at 6'2. The tallest wide receiver for the following QBs:

 

Tom Brady: 6'3. One inch taller. No, you can't factor in Gronk because he's been out all year.

Payton Manning: 6'3. One inch taller.

Cam Newton: 6'2. Same height.

Aaron Rodgers: 6'3. One inch taller.

Drew Brees: 6'4. Two inches taller.

Phillip Rivers: 6'3. One inch taller.

 

 

This narrative needs to die.

 

 

Chris Brown ‏@ChrisBrownBills28m

Marrone to scale things back for EJ http://wp.me/plmrg-9l2

 

Everybody was saying that they wanted to see EJ be better at the end of the year compared to the beginning. That doesn't look like it's going to be the case. Regression for a young QB is an absolute worst-case scenario and signs of what might be to come.

Everybody w

While the book is still not even close to being closed on EJM, you couldn't be more wrong about the WR point. It IS a game of INCHES, and it does matter. The overall skill set part is correct, big AND physical. That is todays NFL. Teams are trying to combat this with bigger corners. It is HUGELY SIGNIFICANT. Look at Colston vs Stevie for example. One is big and physical. The other has proven to be soft. He gets open, but doesn't make great plays on the ball. The Bills WR's are tremendously overrated and scare no one outside of teams worried about Goodwins speed. A rookie QB that needs work with timing /accuracy would be tremendously helped by big athletic WR's that don't need a precise pass. Brandon Marshall, Jefferey types. It won't make EJ great, but V jackson manged to make Glennon look good on some poor throws yesterday. It matters, and the Bills won't get much better without big upgrades in this dept. The jury is still out on the QB, but these WR's are among the worst in the league. Very average size and not really a mismatch for many DB's. A couple inches height plus huge arms and big upper body usually wins vs a DB. I see way more NFL WR's make spectacular plays on throws just in their general vicinity than NFL QB's not named Manning, Rodgers or Brady making spectacular precise throws that drop into WR's mitts perfectly in stride. That takes ridiculous skill and years of practice and is the reason only certain QB's get in the HOF. Most teams don't have HOFers at QB, so they get huge physical athletes at WR and tell the QB just to get it near them. They will make a great play or maybe pick up a IC/PI call with today's rules in the passing game.

[Ramius]

EJ rushed for 1.4 yds per carry as a junior and 3.0 yds per carry as a senior at FSU. He's not the athlete people think he is. Remember when you think about those stats consider 5-6 of those games each year were against out matched sacrificial lamb cupcakes playing for the game check and the worst of the ACC.

 

And thats why you can't take all stats at face value. In college, sacks count as negative rushing yards. So is YPC is not a reflection on what he did as a runner.

 

EJ ran a very simplified "read option" offense out of mostly shotgun formations at FSU. An offense where if the first or second read wasn't there EJ would run it. The WR routes were simplified, he didn't call audibles, he didn't work thru progressions after that second receiver, and when his reads were covered, he ran it. This was a guy coming out of college that was more of a physically gifted athlete then an NFL pro ready QB like Andrew Luck.

 

Wrong.

 

amazing what people will make up to fit their preconceived notions.

[thewildrabbit]

And thats why you can't take all stats at face value. In college, sacks count as negative rushing yards. So is YPC is not a reflection on what he did as a runner.

 

 

 

Wrong.

 

amazing what people will make up to fit their preconceived notions.

Really? Have anything to back up the bluster?

[bills1960]

What happened was when the Chiefs successfully traded for Alex Smith, whether the Bills were in the mix or not, they realized there was no one in this draft that would be truly ready to play this year. They did however see that EJ had the best PHYSICAL upside. That is not to say that it isn't the front office's fault for coming to this realization that late in the process. But I think that it is implied that they hoped for the best out of EJ but that they do not feel particularly obligated to give him two years.

 

This is not your typical situation with a first round pick QB. The rookie wage scale does not weigh the Bills down financially. And we don't have the luxury to give the reigns to a guy we don't feel fully confident about. This defense is playoff caliber, especially with some minor improvements. The offensive line needs some work at guard but it doesn't need a major overhaul. That means it comes down to WR and QB. That's it. And whether it's Jay Cutler, Derek Carr or Brett Hundley back there next year it's acceptable but not EJ. For the sake of the fans, not EJ.

[billsfan714]

And thats why you can't take all stats at face value. In college, sacks count as negative rushing yards. So is YPC is not a reflection on what he did as a runner.

 

 

 

Wrong.

 

amazing what people will make up to fit their preconceived notions.

 

While that is true, FSU only gave up 14 sacks in 2012. Ryan Fitzpatrick, that superb athlete, in his last 3 years with the Bills, rushed for 269, 197 and 204 yards. EJ is averaging 16.5 yards rushing per game, times 16 that would be 264 yards rushing for a full season. Not much better than an average Fitzy year. Nick Foles, who I wouldnt say is much of a runner is averaging 16.8 yards per game. I'll still maintain EJ isn't the runner some people think he is.

Edited December 10, 2013 by billsfan714

[bisonbrigade]

EJ Manuel is a rookie, he will have his ups and downs, what do you expect? Did everyone forget the comeback against Carolina or the NY Jets game at home? He had no running game or blocking against Tampa so of course he struggled. At the end of the 2014 season you will know if he can cut it.

Edited December 10, 2013 by bisonbrigade

[BackInDaDay]

you know why EJ's looking like Trent Edwards in the pros?

because he's doing what Trent would do when he didn't have the confidence to pull the trigger - check it down.

 

you know why EJ had success in college?

because he did what Trent couldn't do when he didn't have the confidence to complete a pass downfield - RUN!

 

who did the Bills think they were drafting?

 

let him try to make plays his way.. what's the worst that can happen? he finds out he's not durable enough to play his game in the NFL? maybe he'd be ok with that. being given a chance to have some special days, as opposed to mediocre seasons.

Edited December 10, 2013 by BackInDaDay

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I read the thread title as in release EJ and was in support of it.

 

yeah it could be misleading

cut EJ loose

 

 

As in LET it FLY, or run more planned QB runs.

 

you know why EJ's looking like Trent Edwards in the pros?

because he's doing what Trent would do when he didn't have the confidence to pull the trigger - check it down.

 

And when Brees uses his check down receiver it's OK right?

 

Trent lost confidence in himself and that of the Oline to protect him.

Edited December 10, 2013 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[BackInDaDay]

And when Brees uses his check down receiver it's OK right?

 

Trent lost confidence in himself and that of the Oline to protect him.

 

 

all QBs check down when the risk/reward of a downfield throw dictates it.. QBs evaluate risk differently. those who are confident they can make the play, pull the trigger. those who aren't, don't.

 

so why not let a QB with confidence issues tuck it in and take off to make positive plays? risk of injury? fine, but if this ability was part of the package that attracted you to this kid, why hold him back? because of two early injuries? ok.. then they may have as well drafted Barkley, or any of the other 2012 statues

[DDD]

EJ rushed for 1.4 yds per carry as a junior and 3.0 yds per carry as a senior at FSU. He's not the athlete people think he is. Remember when you think about those stats consider 5-6 of those games each year were against out matched sacrificial lamb cupcakes playing for the game check and the worst of the ACC.

 

They think that because he's stereotyped as a running QB because he's black. I remember watching tv annoucers saying how athletic Byron Leftwich was in Jax. In reality, he had about as much mobility as Tom Brady. Manuel has mobility, but he can't run like Michael Vick, RG III, or Cam Newton. I'll add Steve Young and Tim Tebow to that to avoid the white QB stereotype.

Edited December 10, 2013 by DDD

[Boatdrinks]

all QBs check down when the risk/reward of a downfield throw dictates it.. QBs evaluate risk differently. those who are confident they can make the play, pull the trigger. those who aren't, don't.

 

And just who on this roster inspires that kind of confidence FROM a QB?You hear it from other QB's " I know if player X is one on one I just put it up there and know he will make a play" Who is that in our WR corps? No one. If you're EJM, if our WR's are in tight coverage and you throw it out there, it will be an INT as the WR watches, or he will get hit immediately and fumble. The WR's on this team are pretty near the bottom of the league if not the worst at making plays on the ball and breaking tackles. I mean, our #1 WR will let a ball bounce off his hands to protect himself if a DB is too close. I'm not sure about EJM, but I rarely like what I see from our WR's. The only time a play works is if it's a timing route or against a zone D. These guys can't consistently beat man coverage.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Running read options with a QB who runs so infrequently is something I can't understand. Defenses don't have to take EJ running seriously.

 

And like 714 up there said, EJ was not much of a runner at all in college. That was partly due to scheme, but he's never been proven as a natural runner.

 

Along with EJ's propensity to not throw downfield, and when he does it rarely goes well, where is the upside?

 

^This!

If he is not going to run then they should be running a different offense style rather than the Read Option. He needs to run more often or change to a different style.

 

He also needs to let the ball fly more to open up the running game and in turn open the passing game up further. I am concerned that they have told him to do this but he is to scared too. I seem to remember reading an article were the coaches said they want him to "Air it out". Does anyone else remember that?

Edited December 10, 2013 by cklapka

[BackInDaDay]

And just who on this roster inspires that kind of confidence FROM a QB?You hear it from other QB's " I know if player X is one on one I just put it up there and know he will make a play" Who is that in our WR corps? No one. If you're EJM, if our WR's are in tight coverage and you throw it out there, it will be an INT as the WR watches, or he will get hit immediately and fumble. The WR's on this team are pretty near the bottom of the league if not the worst at making plays on the ball and breaking tackles. I mean, our #1 WR will let a ball bounce off his hands to protect himself if a DB is too close. I'm not sure about EJM, but I rarely like what I see from our WR's. The only time a play works is if it's a timing route or against a zone D. These guys can't consistently beat man coverage.

 

you're preaching to the choir, but that's not EJ's only issues right now

[Agent 91]

 

 

yikes.. see how that could happen, but i'm not there, yet

 

Did you mean turn him loose. I was like man we are cutting him already lol