K-9 Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Good post. Lost in all the "uptempo or no?" debate is (IMO) the more important point: the offense was really bad. Don't criticize it for being uptempo, criticize it for stinking up the joint. 286 total yards and 150 passing yards are pathetic totals. And the true believers can talk about penalties and drops and fumbles all they want, but penalties and drops and fumbles are all part of the game. You shouldn't need to play a 100% mistake-free game in order to be good, and it's unrealistic to expect a mistake-free game more than once a year at most. And in fact, we probably should expect a lot of mistakes. The Bills had huge penalty issues all preseason; why should they magically go away now? If our offense can't overcome several penalties a game, it will not succeed with this current crew. Stevie has had drops in the past, Graham has horrible hands, and Woods had tons of drops in training camp, per practice reports. If our offense can't overcome a couple drops a game, it needs to get new receivers before it can be any good. Now, the whole uptempo debate might have some merit IF the Bills' offensive problems are due in part to the fast pace -- e.g., maybe the linemen are getting winded and forced to hold more often or something. Way too early for me to say that the tempo is part of the problem, but I don't think we should blindly accept that the coaching staff is correct in their assumption that uptempo offense is inherently more efficient than downtempo offense. Gotta admit though, 286 yards in only 22 minutes of possession is pretty good. Seriously though, I agree. We just weren't effective enough (read: converted third downs), to put more pressure on the NE* defense. And we just aren't good enough to overcome penalties and drops, etc. at this time. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Jax Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 You say that putting the offense in the most opportune position to extend the drive is using the quick play clock..... The same hurry up all game long resulted in 5 three-and-outs before the last one!!! What was so opportune about that? If your offense showed that many of the same result, shouldn't that clue you in on the your chances on this one? The defense barely sat down before they had to go out again. Without a defensive TD, we don't have the lead. but you act like we had the lead thanks to the up tempo O. With all the penalties they had, maybe that the up tempo was more of a problem for our offense than a success. If we didn't execute it well, what makes you think they would with a one point lead??? You'll find a way to ignore that as well, I'm sure. That offense that was living on the hurry up was also dying by it more often. Brady used the hurry up as well, but they slowed it down as well and still had success...with arguably less talent at RB & WR than the Bills. They definitely ran more plays against us, for more yards, and more points. They won the ball game running a good mix of plays too. And I'm sure a tired Bills D (thanks to the hurry up failures) had a lot to do with Vereen looking like an all-star and a hurt WR dominating us when it counted. But you'd rather keep getting the same results (yes, another quick 3 and out). So you seem to be the one ignoring what "actually happened" Excellent points. Agree 1000%. Now, the whole uptempo debate might have some merit IF the Bills' offensive problems are due in part to the fast pace -- e.g., maybe the linemen are getting winded and forced to hold more often or something. Way too early for me to say that the tempo is part of the problem, but I don't think we should blindly accept that the coaching staff is correct in their assumption that uptempo offense is inherently more efficient than downtempo offense. Yep, the actual game evidence says differently. The hurry up offense only really yielded ONE TD (opening drive of the 3rd qtr). The TD just before the end of the half was a TWO PLAY drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 How do people rationalize calling for a coach to have guts and go for 4th down conversions, while at the same time suggesting that the same coach tries to milk the clock on a 1 point lead against Brady? I guess people want their cake and eat it too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Monkeyhead Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 How do people rationalize calling for a coach to have guts and go for 4th down conversions, while at the same time suggesting that the same coach tries to milk the clock on a 1 point lead against Brady? Easy. You get that first down so you can extend your drive, score more points, and take time off the clock. Taking more time off the clock WHILE advancing and SCORING. Who said anything about "milking the clock" and hoping to win by one point??? No one did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) Easy. You get that first down so you can extend your drive, score more points, and take time off the clock. Taking more time off the clock WHILE advancing and SCORING. Who said anything about "milking the clock" and hoping to win by one point??? No one did. Coaching decisions didn't prevent them from extending drives; penalties and dropped passes took care of that. Edited September 12, 2013 by Captain Caveman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Novel idea. Get more first downs. I was confused by the hurry up in the 4th as well when at the game, but you make good points about managing the clock. Bottom line is we were ineffective at execution. I didn;t understand why we didn't keep feeding the ball to Fredex in the 4th as it was working so well in the third quarter. I know it's not that simple, but you keep doing something until they prove they can stop it. It sucks losing to the Pats again, but they played harder than I've seen in awhile, and there is reason to be excited about our defense. I like they're not caving to Byrd so when he and Gilmore are out there, we get better. EJ, I'm guessing will look better this game, and Marrone will start trusting him more and not play so conservative. I live in Tampa, so I watch the Panthers more than probably some of you, and we can definitely win this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsrcursed Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Coaches decisions didn't prevent them from extending drives, penalties and dropped passes took care of that. BOOM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninMinn. Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Young coach playing " not to lose" doesnt bode well. Plenty of old experienced coachs that do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Can someone please enlighten me as to how huddling up or using most of the play clock would have resulted in better execution, less penalties, turnovers, etc.? You know, the factors that actually contributed to the loss? I'll wait. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Monkeyhead Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Coaching decisions didn't prevent them from extending drives; penalties and dropped passes took care of that. So with that logic, a team that has had dropped passes, etc all game long shouldn't go for a very makeable 4th and one when giving your opponent the ball back late in the game is your only other option? With all the drops, penalties, and turnovers, they were still winning at the point and time of this coaching decision. A QB sneak seems like a better option to me....less chance for three of the negative things you mention above from happening. Look at the result of the coaching decision made...Brady, 4th qtr, possession...and a loss for the home team. Same old results. Can someone please enlighten me as to how huddling up or using most of the play clock would have resulted in better execution, less penalties, turnovers, etc.? You know, the factors that actually contributed to the loss? I'll wait. GO BILLS!!! No one said it would take those things away. They already happened and they still had the lead. No one said huddling up. But you can change the timing up when everyone on D is lined up thinking the quick snap is coming.....you might get them to jump....or at least keep them off balance at a critical time. The hurry up can be used in many ways, including deception. I hope the Bills can master the up tempo approach to keep teams guessing on snap count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) So with that logic, a team that has had dropped passes, etc all game long shouldn't go for a very makeable 4th and one when giving your opponent the ball back late in the game is your only other option? With all the drops, penalties, and turnovers, they were still winning at the point and time of this coaching decision. A QB sneak seems like a better option to me....less chance for three of the negative things you mention above from happening. Look at the result of the coaching decision made...Brady, 4th qtr, possession...and a loss for the home team. Same old results. No one said it would take those things away. They already happened and they still had the lead. No one said huddling up. But you can change the timing up when everyone on D is lined up thinking the quick snap is coming.....you might get them to jump....or at least keep them off balance at a critical time. The hurry up can be used in many ways, including deception. I hope the Bills can master the up tempo approach to keep teams guessing on snap count. What drive are you talking about? On our last "drive" (not counting the last possession where we ran 1 play) we punted on 4th and 6 from our own 24. The drive before there was still almost 11 minutes left and NE did not score on the ensuing possession. I think it's also worth noting that with the exception of 1 NE field goal, all of their scoring drives came when they had a short field (less than 50 yards to go.) That decision may be somewhat arguable, but it's arguable both ways, and NE did not score there. I will agree that the coaching left some room for improvement, but to blame the loss on bad coaching makes no sense to me. Edited September 12, 2013 by Captain Caveman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 So with that logic, a team that has had dropped passes, etc all game long shouldn't go for a very makeable 4th and one when giving your opponent the ball back late in the game is your only other option? With all the drops, penalties, and turnovers, they were still winning at the point and time of this coaching decision. A QB sneak seems like a better option to me....less chance for three of the negative things you mention above from happening. Look at the result of the coaching decision made...Brady, 4th qtr, possession...and a loss for the home team. Same old results. No one said it would take those things away. They already happened and they still had the lead. No one said huddling up. But you can change the timing up when everyone on D is lined up thinking the quick snap is coming.....you might get them to jump....or at least keep them off balance at a critical time. The hurry up can be used in many ways, including deception. I hope the Bills can master the up tempo approach to keep teams guessing on snap count. These are elements that should be learned and used regardless of no-huddle vs.huddle or slow vs. fast pace. The theme throughout this thread seems to be that the uptempo no-huddle contributed to the loss. That they should have burned more time between plays on their final drive that commenced with 5:51 left. The overriding number one factor in the loss was poor execution, especially on third downs, which made it impossible to sustain drives. Pace and no huddle had nothing to do with it. And a coach's decision to go or not go for it on 4th down had nothing to do with it either. EVERY decision by EVERY player can be scrutinized in hindsight. You can state your desire to have seen Marrone go for it. I can fully understand why he chose not to. It wasn't a contributing factor to the loss anyway. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Gotta admit though, 286 yards in only 22 minutes of possession is pretty good. Seriously though, I agree. We just weren't effective enough (read: converted third downs), to put more pressure on the NE* defense. And we just aren't good enough to overcome penalties and drops, etc. at this time. GO BILLS!!! I really think the problem was more "bad offense" than anything else. Obviously we were bad on 3rd downs, but a lot of those were 3rd and long, which came about because we were bad on 1st and 2nd down as well. Definitely agree with your last sentence... we pretty much need to be mistake-free to move the ball right now. If we want to be optimistic, we can think about how much different Seattle's O looked under Russell Wilson during the 1st and 2nd halves of last season. Yep, the actual game evidence says differently. The hurry up offense only really yielded ONE TD (opening drive of the 3rd qtr). The TD just before the end of the half was a TWO PLAY drive. Actually, the evidence doesn't really say anything about fast vs. slow or huddle vs. no-huddle yet, because the Bills haven't huddled up or played slow. They might have been just as bad, but slower, if they'd huddled up last week. Then we would have seen about 25 minutes of possession instead of 22, but no extra yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Safe to say you have never coached any sport or any time with positive results. No one forces that in the first quarter down 10-0 with a rookie qb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I really think the problem was more "bad offense" than anything else. Obviously we were bad on 3rd downs, but a lot of those were 3rd and long, which came about because we were bad on 1st and 2nd down as well. Definitely agree with your last sentence... we pretty much need to be mistake-free to move the ball right now. If we want to be optimistic, we can think about how much different Seattle's O looked under Russell Wilson during the 1st and 2nd halves of last season. ... The whole key to success on offense is staying in manageable down/distance situations. Defenses just can't dictate when that's the case. We did a poor job of that as you point out. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Jeff Tuel turns that drive into points on the board. Classic Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewie Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 GRWWAAARRARRUGGHHRRRR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodoo poonani Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I agree with the OP. I was sitting there watching the game thinking "this is exactly what Gailey did and we roasted him for it. Why does Marrone get a pass?" We haven't won a thing in 13 years take the shot. Maybe inspire the fan base and send a message that we'll do whatever it takes to give ourselves an edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Jax Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 EVERY decision by EVERY player can be scrutinized in hindsight. Seriously!? I'm ROTFLMAO here. Add in "coach" & "front office" to "player", and your statement above pretty much describes 99% of all posts to any pro football message board, and certainly to TSW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Jeff Tuel turns that drive into points on the board. Classic Bills. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts