Cookie Gilchrist, Daryle Lamonica enshrined into the HOVG

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

http://www.profootballresearchers.org/HOVG/Hall_Of_Very_Good_Class_of_2013.pdf

[BillsWatch]

No different than Hall of Fame. Special teamers do not warrant admittance.

 

I find this attitude by some writers to be extremely irritating.

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

No different than Hall of Fame. Special teamers do not warrant admittance.

 

I find this attitude by some writers to be extremely irritating.

If you're referring to Steve Tasker - the rule for the HOVG is they have to be retired for 25 years to be eligible.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Bob Kuechenberg and Mike Curtis were both awesome players.

 

There are a lot of great players not in the HOF and the line is so thin that it sometimes seems that the names fall arbitrarily on either side of the line.

 

Here's a list of all the members of the Hall of Very Good, which Ken and his people started in 2002:

 

http://www.profootballresearchers.org/HOVG.htm

[BearNorth]

Glad they Recognized Tom Sestak, Hopefully someday the PFHOF Veterans Committee will as well, He was the anchor of the great Bills D's of 63-64-65-66.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

they need to change the name to the Hall of Greatness. HO very good sounds weak and lame.

[BillsWatch]

If you're referring to Steve Tasker - the rule for the HOVG is they have to be retired for 25 years to be eligible.

 

No I am not. They have never elected a special teams player.

 

 

1 Position: Assistant Coach 1946-53 and 1962, and Head Coach 1963-70

2 Position: Back

2 Position: Center

2 Position: Cornerback

7 Position: Defensive Back

6 Position: Defensive End

5 Position: Defensive Tackle

8 Position: End

1 Position: End, Halfback

1 Position: End, Head Coach

1 Position: End, Kicker

2 Position: Fullback

11 Position: Guard

1 Position: Guard, Center, Linebacker

1 Position: Guard, Linebacker

2 Position: Halfback

1 Position: Halfback, End

1 Position: Halfback, Fullback

3 Position: Head Coach

8 Position: Linebacker

7 Position: Quarterback

3 Position: Running Back

1 Position: Safety

1 Position: Split End, Wide Receiver

6 Position: Tackle

1 Position: Tackle, Middle Guard, End

3 Position: Tailback

1 Position: Tight End

7 Position: Wide Receiver

1 Positions: Free Safety

1 Positions: Linebacker

[tennesseeboy]

I LIKE IT! I always thought a lot of AFL players were going to be forgotten, and so many of these guys were just outstanding players. Probably not hall of fame, but the hall of very good is an intriguing idea. Hooray for the researchers association. I think we had a regular poster at one time who was involved with this group...but I forget who it was.

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

I LIKE IT! I always thought a lot of AFL players were going to be forgotten, and so many of these guys were just outstanding players. Probably not hall of fame, but the hall of very good is an intriguing idea. Hooray for the researchers association. I think we had a regular poster at one time who was involved with this group...but I forget who it was.

 

It IS KRC.

[Chandler#81]

Bills watch, there ARE kickers in the HOF. But, only a couple..

 

What's it say that I clearly remember ALL the players in this years HOVG inductees?

Nevermind, I know what it says..

[KRC]

No different than Hall of Fame. Special teamers do not warrant admittance.

 

I find this attitude by some writers to be extremely irritating.

 

Who should be in that is not in right now? Keep in mind that a lot of the older players were also special teamers.

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

No I am not. They have never elected a special teams player.

And what ST player retired before 1988 who is not in the HOF do you believe warrants entry?

 

Ray Guy? Billy "White Shoes" Johnson? Pete Gogolak?

[Offside Number 76]

And what ST player retired before 1988 who is not in the HOF do you believe warrants entry?

 

Ray Guy? Billy "White Shoes" Johnson? Pete Gogolak?

 

If you give it a few more years, I'd say Reggie Roby.

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

If you give it a few more years, I'd say Reggie Roby.

There will be several. Morton Andersen, Gary Anderson, Reggie Roby, Adam Vinateri, Steve Tasker

[tennesseeboy]

It IS KRC.

Welll...looks like KRC knows his football given the people on the list.

[Homey D. Clown]

they need to change the name to the Hall of Greatness. HO very good sounds weak and lame.

 

Agreed, it even sounds a little hokey and belittling in my opinion, I actually thought it was a joke.

[KD in CA]

they need to change the name to the Hall of Greatness. HO very good sounds weak and lame.

Kinda like most of your posts, and your suggestion here.

 

The name is perfect. Thanks for the list Ken.

[KRC]

 

Kinda like most of your posts, and your suggestion here.

 

The name is perfect. Thanks for the list Ken.

 

Thank you. The term "great" is overused to the point that it is meaningless. I prefer to reserve that term for the truly elite.

 

Also, the HOVG is not meant as a replacement of the HOF. It is for people who have had excellent careers, but are not in the HOF. Do I feel that some of the HOVG players should be in the HOF? Yes. People like Dilweg, Wistert, and Slater should be in.

[KD in CA]

Thank you. The term "great" is overused to the point that it is meaningless. I prefer to reserve that term for the truly elite.

 

Also, the HOVG is not meant as a replacement of the HOF. It is for people who have had excellent careers, but are not in the HOF. Do I feel that some of the HOVG players should be in the HOF? Yes. People like Dilweg, Wistert, and Slater should be in.

 

The best part of the HOVG for me is there are so many names I remember from childhood but have long since forgotten -- it's a like a who's who of my football card collection when I was 12.

[Tcali]

Bob Kuechenberg and Mike Curtis were both awesome players.

 

There are a lot of great players not in the HOF and the line is so thin that it sometimes seems that the names fall arbitrarily on either side of the line.

 

Here's a list of all the members of the Hall of Very Good, which Ken and his people started in 2002:

 

http://www.profootba...rs.org/HOVG.htm

so true about the arbitrariness. There are the ones that are obvious--the OJs,the Jim Browns, the reggie whites, the LTs,the Jerry Rices.-They may be 25% of the hall. The rest are a bit of a jumble....subject to amt of media exposure,luck of the draw re teammates,coaches,organizations etc. I think the toughest call may be at WR where a WR can be doomed by the FITZs of the world.-That HOVG list is very impressive.

[KRC]

I just got off the phone with Daryle Lamonica. I have him set up to be on Sirius XM NFL radio tonight at 9pm eastern. The focus of his interview is his induction into the Hall of Very Good.

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

I just got off the phone with Daryle Lamonica. I have him set up to be on Sirius XM NFL radio tonight at 9pm eastern. The focus of his interview is his induction into the Hall of Very Good.

That is so friggin cool. Has he ever really talked much about his time in Buffalo?

 

I don't have XM Radio so if there will be an online version of this somewhere I'd be very interested to hear.

Edited June 5, 2013 by JÂy RÛßeÒ

[Chandler#81]

I just got off the phone with Daryle Lamonica. I have him set up to be on Sirius XM NFL radio tonight at 9pm eastern. The focus of his interview is his induction into the Hall of Very Good.

 

That's great, Ken! Please ask him -in his opinion, why he was traded to Oakland. We know he went with Glenn Bass for Flores & Art Powell, but there's been so much speculation over the years of the Kemp rivalry and other sordid conspiracies that no one could really ever verify. Our family had quite the debate in '64 & '65 between the 2 QBs as I'm sure all of Buffalo did. He seemed to really get up to play the Bills as a Raider, regularly hangin' 50 pts on us.. That trade killed the Bills. Powell never played and I don't think Flores did in the regular season either. Bass was an under-rated, fine receiver for us and was instrumental in their SB II run.

 

I'll be in my car listening tonight. Thanks!

[26CornerBlitz]

That's great, Ken! Please ask him -in his opinion, why he was traded to Oakland. We know he went with Glenn Bass for Flores & Art Powell, but there's been so much speculation over the years of the Kemp rivalry and other sordid conspiracies that no one could really ever verify. Our family had quite the debate in '64 & '65 between the 2 QBs as I'm sure all of Buffalo did. He seemed to really get up to play the Bills as a Raider, regularly hangin' 50 pts on us.. That trade killed the Bills. Powell never played and I don't think Flores did in the regular season either. Bass was an under-rated, fine receiver for us and was instrumental in their SB II run.

 

I'll be in my car listening tonight. Thanks!

 

In the external link in this thread------> http://forums.twobil...al-video-piece/

 

 

Larry Felser was asked whether Kemp or Lamonica was better. He discussed the demise of Lamonica with the advent of zone defenses in the AFL. Felser intimated that once the Mad Bomber" could no longer sit in the pocket and beat defenses with the long ball, he was pretty much done.

 

I thought that was interesting.

Edited June 5, 2013 by 26CornerBlitz

[KRC]

 

That is so friggin cool. Has he ever really talked much about his time in Buffalo?

 

I don't have XM Radio so if there will be an online version of this somewhere I'd be very interested to hear.

 

We talked briefly about his time with Gilchrist. I am going to have an extended interview with him in a few weeks.

 

 

 

That's great, Ken! Please ask him -in his opinion, why he was traded to Oakland. We know he went with Glenn Bass for Flores & Art Powell, but there's been so much speculation over the years of the Kemp rivalry and other sordid conspiracies that no one could really ever verify. Our family had quite the debate in '64 & '65 between the 2 QBs as I'm sure all of Buffalo did. He seemed to really get up to play the Bills as a Raider, regularly hangin' 50 pts on us.. That trade killed the Bills. Powell never played and I don't think Flores did in the regular season either. Bass was an under-rated, fine receiver for us and was instrumental in their SB II run.

 

I'll be in my car listening tonight. Thanks!

 

Will do.

[Chandler#81]

 

 

In the external link in this thread------> http://forums.twobil...al-video-piece/

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tR_e_2BNkCs

 

Larry Felser was asked whether Kemp or Lamonica was better. He discussed the demise of Lamonica with the advent of zone defenses in the AFL. Felser intimated that once the Mad Bomber" could no longer sit in the pocket and beat defenses with the long ball, he was pretty much done.

 

I thought that was interesting.

 

I saw this and yes, it was interesting. But Larry didn't discuss Daryl getting out of Buffalo. His demise came with Oakland. Frankly, I think it was more a young Kenny Stabler on the bench than Daryl failing to hit short route receivers.. Interesting how his Bill career paralleled his Raider career in reverse..

[26CornerBlitz]

I saw this and yes, it was interesting. But Larry didn't discuss Daryl getting out of Buffalo. His demise came with Oakland. Frankly, I think it was more a young Kenny Stabler on the bench than Daryl failing to hit short route receivers.. Interesting how his Bill career paralleled his Raider career in reverse..

 

Completely different subject matter of course. Would be great to hear how the trade out of Buffalo unfolded.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

In the great KC Chiefs-Oakland Raiders rivalry, it was HOF Len Dawson against Lamonica.

 

Two very different types of quarterbacks, similar to the contrast between Bart Starr and Norm Van Brocklin.

 

So many great players have played this sport. It's a bit of shame that history remembers so few.

 

Glad for the HOVG.

[Jim Gehman]

I've interviewed Lamonica a couple times, and for a little background on his career in Buffalo - the arrival and departure - here are two excerpts from my book about the Bills: “Then Levy Said to Kelly…”

 

You Snooze, You Lose

 

The National Football League and the still-upstart American Football League were fishing in the same pool of college players during much of the 1960s. In 1963, the Bills selected Notre Dame quarterback Daryle Lamonica in the 24^th round, 188^th overall, while Green Bay chose him in the 12^th round of the NFL draft. Appearance-wise, it seemed the Packers were more interested in the young signal caller than the Bills were. Buffalo, however, proved to be more persistent.

 

"Their [Green Bay’s] scout had contacted me right after the draft and said he’d be back in a few days. Two or three weeks went by and no one contacted me," said Lamonica. "[Meanwhile] the Bills were contacting me daily and wanted to sign me. I had the East-West Shrine Game coming up, and they convinced me to sign a contract before I went and played that game so in case I got hurt, I’d still have a contract."

 

Quarterback? Check! Team leader? Check! Contract negotiator? Well, not so fast. "I didn't know what an agent was, and I was too embarrassed to call [former college teammate] Paul Hornung up in Green Bay and talk to him about it," Lamonica said with a laugh. "I can remember negotiating with Johnny Mazur, who was a receiver at Notre Dame and the receivers coach with the Bills. He was calling every day with the Notre Dame tie. They offered me a $1,500 signing bonus and an $11,500 contract. You've got to understand, I was from Fresno, California, and my mom was sending me $5 a week out of her beauty-shop tips. That was my date money and my spare money and I got along pretty good.

 

"I went to [Notre Dame head coach] Joe Kuharich and said, ‘Coach, this is the contract that I was offered.’ And he said, ‘That’s a pretty good contract, and you ought to sign it.’ I remember walking back to my dorm, and I thought, ‘God, I’m worth more money than that.’ So I called Johnny Mazur and said, ‘Coach, I’m ready to sign, but before I go to the East-West Shrine Game, I've got to have more money. I need a $2,000 bonus and a $12,000 contract!’ There was a long pause. He said [later that] he was laughing so hard he almost dropped the phone. He said, ‘The contract’s in the mail.’"

 

Lamonica continued. "So I sent it back and went to the East-West game. I was able to win the MVP. I had scouts coming up after the game saying, ‘We’ll give you a $100,000 bonus and a $100,000 contract to sign.’ I’m going, ‘What?’ I didn't realize there was that much money in the whole world! But hell, with that [extra] $500 [from the Bills], I was able to end up buying a new Chevrolet Impala convertible."

 

 

Lamonica’s Sent West

 

Approaching the 1967 season, after four seasons as Buffalo’s backup quarterback, Daryle Lamonica thought that he’d be seeing more playing time and that he just may, in the immediate future, be taking the field with the starters. But on March 14, just two and a half months after capturing their second straight AFL title and the day of the AFL and NFL’s inaugural combined college draft, the Bills traded him along with wide receiver Glenn Bass and third- and fifth-round draft picks to Oakland for quarterback Tom Flores, wide receiver Art Powell and a second-round draft selection that year.

 

"I was shocked! The night before I had talked to Ralph Wilson Jr. and Sr., and they both told me they were looking forward to me being their starting quarterback," said Lamonica. "Hell, I was all jazzed up! I could have run through brick walls! Eight hours later, I was traded. It’s how I found out about the trade, I guess, that was the biggest shock to me and disappointing from my standpoint.

 

"I was in Fresno, California, and some buddies came up and said, ‘Hey, you've been traded to the Raiders.’ I said, ‘Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.’ I had to call the Fresno Bee, my hometown paper, to find out. Well, I was devastated from having talked to the Bills organization the night before. And to this day, I have never heard from the Bills in regards to the trade or why I was traded."

 

Lamonica’s attention quickly focused on the AFL’s upcoming schedule and Oakland’s game in War Memorial Stadium on October 15. "I started training right then and there for that particular game," Lamonica said.

 

He and Jack Kemp each completed two touchdown passes but also combined for six interceptions. The Raiders won the game, 24-20, their first victory in Buffalo since 1961."I thought I would play more [while with the Bills], but as I found out, it’s a business. As it worked out, it was the best thing that could have happened for me. It gave me an opportunity to come back to the West Coast, where I was born and raised. My family could come up and see the games."

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Great stuff Jim. I remember this chapter being in the same section as the Ron McDole and Pete Gogolak chapters.

 

I know those were different times and that players were generally treated poorly in those days by team owners.

 

It's amazing to see how far professional athletes have come in the last half century.

 

Have you made it to the Kansas City Chiefs Hall of Fame? I hear that it's a treasure trove of AFL history.

[Chandler#81]

Thanks for that Jim Gehman! I think that was the closest score in Bills/Raiders game for the rest of Daryle's career. I'm still looking for the reason behind the trade- from Buffalo's perspective.

 

Sorry, KRC, I got caught up in the Bruins/Penguins game and forgot to out to my car. Is there a link to your discussion?

 

I GOTTA get the Sirius gadget for the house..

[tennesseeboy]

I don't know how the Lamonica trade unfolded...but it was clearly the worst trade in the history of the Bills. I had forgotten that we gave up Lamonica, Bass AND draft picks for Flores and Powell, neither of whom did anything for Buffalo. Didn't Kemp break his leg and miss the season the year after the trade?

[Chandler#81]

I don't know how the Lamonica trade unfolded...but it was clearly the worst trade in the history of the Bills. I had forgotten that we gave up Lamonica, Bass AND draft picks for Flores and Powell, neither of whom did anything for Buffalo. Didn't Kemp break his leg and miss the season the year after the trade?

 

Yep. Also lost Flores to injury before the season. Then, during the season Wyche, Stephenson, Darragh went down, forcing Rutkowski to finish out the disaster, the last couple games..

 

I didn't recall the draft picks either, but we got a 2nd out of it. I'll have to check to see who we drafted with that pick.

 

Edit: Jim Lemoine?? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LeMoJi20.htm

 

Yes, tennesseeboy, WORST.EVER.TRADE.!!!

[Trader]

Yep. Also lost Flores to injury before the season. Then, during the season Wyche, Stephenson, Darragh went down, forcing Rutkowski to finish out the disaster, the last couple games..

 

I didn't recall the draft picks either, but we got a 2nd out of it. I'll have to check to see who we drafted with that pick.

 

Edit: Jim Lemoine?? http://www.pro-footb.../L/LeMoJi20.htm

 

Yes, tennesseeboy, WORST.EVER.TRADE.!!!

Yep. Also lost Flores to injury before the season. Then, during the season Wyche, Stephenson, Darragh went down, forcing Rutkowski to finish out the disaster, the last couple games..

 

I didn't recall the draft picks either, but we got a 2nd out of it. I'll have to check to see who we drafted with that pick.

 

Edit: Jim Lemoine?? http://www.pro-footb.../L/LeMoJi20.htm

 

Yes, tennesseeboy, WORST.EVER.TRADE.!!!

Actually

I don't know how the Lamonica trade unfolded...but it was clearly the worst trade in the history of the Bills. I had forgotten that we gave up Lamonica, Bass AND draft picks for Flores and Powell, neither of whom did anything for Buffalo. Didn't Kemp break his leg and miss the season the year after the trade?

I think that Felser addressed this in his book. Wilson bailed out a failing franchise in Oakland and saved the AFL in the process. This has a lot to do with his induction into the hall of fame. The fact that he sold out the Bills to save the league kind of goes on the back burner though.