A Big Ugly

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Currently the Buffalo Bills have one O line stud at center in Eric Wood. But the problem is the man can't stay healthy the entire season and when he goes down, the team goes with him.

 

They have a semi stud at LT in Cordy Glenn. A player who would be even better at RT, and could be an all pro at guard. This is one massive man, 6'5'' 345 Lbs. Glenn's flaws at LT against speed rushers will be seen this season with Kolb, Jackson or some rookie at QB. At 345 his feet just aren't quick enough, no need to argue this point as you will see this season.

 

 

The Bills could use upgrades at RT, RG and would benefit greatly by taking one of those top 3 LT's and moving Glenn to RT. Luke Joeckel, Eric Fisher, Lane Johnson. or even drafting RT DJ Fluker, and keeping Glenn at LT.

 

They would better by drafting either OG Chance Warmack / Jonathan Cooper if all the LT's are gone by the 8th pick, and they probably will be.

 

 

 

This is the year for O linemen, and not more Jimmy Clausen's!! Remember all the hype for that bum?

 

"With all due respect to Oklahoma's Sam Bradford, the Fighting Irish's Jimmy Clausen has established himself as the best pocket passer in this draft."

 

http://www.fftoolbox...rospect_id=2387

 

"Summary: Jimmy Clausen is a franchise quarterback. He has carried the spotlight since he was a teenager and has surpassed the hype."

 

http://walterfootbal...010jclausen.php

 

SI Don Banks had him going #4 to the Redskins

 

http://sportsillustr...ft.1/index.html

 

I'm with ya but most think I'm nuts for not taking a QB but I just can't see getting one this year when more than likely these will be OK to backups. Next year the prospects will be much better and we can one then, this year we need to load up on weapons so Kolb can succeed and if not we get a top QB next year.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Buffalo Barbarian

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Just as with a great pass rusher, a great OT has tremendous value to a football team.

 

But the value at any other position pales in comparison to the value a competent quarterback brings.

 

Then when you measure the contribution of an elite player at any position compared to an elite QB, the chasm widens even more greatly.

[Saint Doug]

This thread is great and all, but we had one of the best o-lines in the NFL last year and where did that get us?

 

So, /thread.

[Mr. WEO]

Just as with a great pass rusher, a great OT has tremendous value to a football team.

 

But the value at any other position pales in comparison to the value a competent quarterback brings.

 

Then when you measure the contribution of an elite player at any position compared to an elite QB, the chasm widens even more greatly.

 

A great pass rusher and a great LT are not comparable in value.

[Ramius]

Just as with a great pass rusher, a great OT has tremendous value to a football team.

 

But the value at any other position pales in comparison to the value a competent quarterback brings.

 

Then when you measure the contribution of an elite player at any position compared to an elite QB, the chasm widens even more greatly.

 

Disagree. A pass rusher can single handedly alter and impact a game. He can cause multiple offensive players to have to account for him. An LT simply cannot have that much impact on a game. He blocks 1 defender and thats it. No defense has to account for a great LT.

[Cheddar's Dad]

Who says Buddy's making the pick? I believe the pick will be based on a consensus of 3 people... Buddy, and the two Dougs. And the two Dougs outnumber the one Buddy.

 

Buddy is the GM, Whaley the Assistant GM, Marrone the Head Coach. The Asst. GM and Head Coach will likely influence Buddy's decision, but Buddy will make the call. Additionally, I think Buddy has been very good with the draft and expect him to remain as GM for several more years. No where it been written that this is his last draft.

 

Folks gotta realize that tje offense is gonna be up tempo and in the no huddle for many series a game. Big offensive lineman are not gonna cut it.

 

Is that why the first 15 picks are likely to be O-linemen? Marrone's offense requires a sound running game. Sound running games require high quality O-Linemen

 

Can't imagine a scenario where Buffalo drafts a lineman in the top 10 with Buddy. He has proven he does not put a premium (salary wise) in the line, declining to pay up for Peters, Bell and Levitre.

Why draft someone we won't want to resign after their rookie contract expires?

 

Buddy, I believe, was still in San Diego during the Peters fiasco. Bell was not worth keeping. Many believe the offer to Levitre was insane. Buddy refused to match an insane offer. Good for him.

[jumbalaya]

.........which is nothing new. It happens on a daily basis. If Polian is right....let the board implode all it wants. I'm old and I want to see this team win a super bowl before I'm bench pressin daisys.

 

jb

 

Landry Jones should not even be drafted. He completely sucks.

[Cheddar's Dad]

Is that why the first 15 picks are likely to be O-linemen? Marrone's offense requires a sound running game. Sound running games require high quality O-Linemen

 

Sorry. Before all of you jump on me for this; I meant to say, five of the first fifteen picks are likely to be O-linemen. Nothing about the changing nature of NFL offenses has reduced the need for quality lineman.

[dalerkeyes]

I don't believe Buddy Nix was the Bills GM, when they traded away Jason Peters, who they did try to re sign but wanted more money than he was worth.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Just as with a great pass rusher, a great OT has tremendous value to a football team.

 

But the value at any other position pales in comparison to the value a competent quarterback brings.

 

Then when you measure the contribution of an elite player at any position compared to an elite QB, the chasm widens even more greatly.

 

A great pass rusher and a great LT are not comparable in value.

 

Disagree. A pass rusher can single handedly alter and impact a game. He can cause multiple offensive players to have to account for him. An LT simply cannot have that much impact on a game. He blocks 1 defender and thats it. No defense has to account for a great LT.

 

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough.

 

I'm wasn't attempting to rank pass rusher equally with offensive tackle (although I place both of them above guard for instance).

 

My point was they are both high value positions but both have lesser value than quarterback.

 

And btw there are some here who would argue that a great offensive tackle is as valuable as a great pass rusher.

 

But that whole debate is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

[thewildrabbit]

This thread is great and all, but we had one of the best o-lines in the NFL last year and where did that get us?

 

So, /thread.

Oh really? The O line in Chan Gaileys offense looked somewhat respectable for several reasons.

 

First, was the fact that Fitz has an ability to release the ball and find the open receiver in usually under 1.5 to 3 seconds. To quote Osi Umenyiora, the NY Giants D linemen who stated prior to the 24-27 loss in 2011, it was almost impossible to get a sack on Fitz because of his getting rid of the ball so quickly. What the Giants D line would do is try and get pressure on him, get their hands up and hope to force a turnover with just pressure. Which they did late in the game.

 

Second, the Bills ran a "spread offense" which actually spreads out the players on the line of scrimmage from sideline to sideline. The Bills were primarily a passing offense out of the spread, shotgun set, and when they did run the ball the RB's had more opportunities to make a big gain because of that spread out LoS. One broken tackle usually meant a big gainer.

 

 

As one GM put it, the Bills were tough to play, but easy to beat. All the opposing defense had to do was stack the box with 7-8 defenders to stop the run, and play tight coverages close up and force Fitz to throw deep, which Fitz really couldn't do well. The main reason for this was the Bills lack of a true deep threat along with Fitz's inability to throw deep accurately.

 

Despite Fitz's ability to get rid of the ball quickly he still took a bunch of hits every game after the ball was out. Plus the fact that the Bills couldn't make a 3rd and short running the ball in a closed set, even if their lives depended on it.

 

A top WR like Patterson / Austin isn't going to change the deficiencies in the O line. Look what happened to the Bills when they brought in TO, they simply didn't have the time to throw deep most plays.

 

 

Its my take that you guys will see just how bad that O line really is this upcoming season with Kolb / Jackson, or worse a rookie at QB. All I can do is pray that Doug Marrone (who used be an NFL O linemen) evaluates his line and asks Brandon / Nix to let him build it properly. So that his team has an actual chance to compete this season, and in the future.

 

 

 

While I agree that QB for the Buffalo Bills is the highest priority, I just don't see an impact franchise starter in this years draft. Just think back to how great everyone said Jimmy Clausen was going to be. I'd rather the Bills take a QB in the 2nd or 3rd rounds this year.

Edited April 20, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[hondo in seattle]

Oh really? The O line in Chan Gaileys offense looked somewhat respectable for several reasons.

 

First, was the fact that Fitz has an ability to release the ball and find the open receiver in usually under 1.5 to 3 seconds. To quote Osi Umenyiora, the NY Giants D linemen who stated prior to the 24-27 loss, it was almost impossible to get a sack on Fitz because of his getting rid of the ball so quickly. What the Giants D line would do is try and get pressure on him, get their hands up and hope to force a turnover with just pressure. Which they did late in the game.

 

Second, the Bills ran a "spread offense" which actually spreads out the players on the line of scrimmage from sideline to sideline. The Bills were primarily a passing offense out of the spread, shotgun set, and when they did run the ball the RB's had more opportunities to make a big gain because of that spread out LoS. One broken tackle usually meant a big gainer.

 

 

As one GM put it, the Bills were tough to play, but easy to beat. All the opposing defense had to do was stack the box with 7-8 defenders to stop the run, and play tight coverages close up and force Fitz to throw deep, which Fitz really couldn't do well. The main reason for this was the Bills lack of a true deep threat along with Fitz's inability to throw deep accurately.

 

Despite Fitz's ability to get rid of the ball quickly he still took a bunch of hits every game after the ball was out. Plus the fact that the Bills couldn't make a 3rd and short running the ball in a closed set, even if their lives depended on it.

 

A top WR like Patterson / Austin isn't going to change the deficiencies in the O line. Look what happened to the Bills when they brought in TO, they simply didn't have the time to throw deep most plays.

 

 

Its my take that you guys will see just how bad that O line really is this upcoming season with Kolb / Jackson, or worse a rookie at QB. All I can do is pray that Doug Marrone (who used be an NFL O linemen) evaluates his line and asks Brandon / Nix to let him build it properly. So that his team has an actual chance to compete this season.

 

I mostly agree... and will add that the Bills Offensive Line usually didn't get much of a push on 3rd and short situations. It was concerning. And now we've lost Levitre.

Edited April 20, 2013 by hondo in seattle

[thebandit27]

I have no issue with drafting an OLmen at 8 overall if he's the best player available.

 

That said, if the team feels there's a franchise QB in this draft, it's an absolute no-brainer; take him at 8. To do otherwise is to completely ignore the biggest reason for success in the NFL.

[Saint Doug]

Oh really? The O line in Chan Gaileys offense looked somewhat respectable for several reasons.

 

First, was the fact that Fitz has an ability to release the ball and find the open receiver in usually under 1.5 to 3 seconds. To quote Osi Umenyiora, the NY Giants D linemen who stated prior to the 24-27 loss in 2011, it was almost impossible to get a sack on Fitz because of his getting rid of the ball so quickly. What the Giants D line would do is try and get pressure on him, get their hands up and hope to force a turnover with just pressure. Which they did late in the game.

 

Second, the Bills ran a "spread offense" which actually spreads out the players on the line of scrimmage from sideline to sideline. The Bills were primarily a passing offense out of the spread, shotgun set, and when they did run the ball the RB's had more opportunities to make a big gain because of that spread out LoS. One broken tackle usually meant a big gainer.

 

 

As one GM put it, the Bills were tough to play, but easy to beat. All the opposing defense had to do was stack the box with 7-8 defenders to stop the run, and play tight coverages close up and force Fitz to throw deep, which Fitz really couldn't do well. The main reason for this was the Bills lack of a true deep threat along with Fitz's inability to throw deep accurately.

 

Despite Fitz's ability to get rid of the ball quickly he still took a bunch of hits every game after the ball was out. Plus the fact that the Bills couldn't make a 3rd and short running the ball in a closed set, even if their lives depended on it.

 

A top WR like Patterson / Austin isn't going to change the deficiencies in the O line. Look what happened to the Bills when they brought in TO, they simply didn't have the time to throw deep most plays.

 

 

Its my take that you guys will see just how bad that O line really is this upcoming season with Kolb / Jackson, or worse a rookie at QB. All I can do is pray that Doug Marrone (who used be an NFL O linemen) evaluates his line and asks Brandon / Nix to let him build it properly. So that his team has an actual chance to compete this season, and in the future.

 

 

 

While I agree that QB for the Buffalo Bills is the highest priority, I just don't see an impact franchise starter in this years draft. Just think back to how great everyone said Jimmy Clausen was going to be. I'd rather the Bills take a QB in the 2nd or 3rd rounds this year.

 

But now you're using circular logic. You're saying that an offense line can look "respectable" through great QBing and offensive game planning. But, then at the same time aren't you saying that we don't need a QB, but a great line instead (the central tenant of this thread)?

 

You admit, and I agree, our current QBs are crap, so to what end would an elite OLman serve? That would be like installing a state-of-the-art security system on Ralph's 1988 Ford Taurus.

 

And from what we hear, Marrone will be installing some type of up-tempo WCO. A type of offense that relies on getting the ball out fast. From what you detailed above, our current OL should flourish under such a system.

Edited April 21, 2013 by kas23

[Terrakon]

Every year after each Super Bowl, I can vividly remember thinking to myself either a) wow, what a performance by the LT, wouldn't have won that SB without him, or b) wow what a performance by that Guard, simply dominating, defense had no answer for him. Oh wait...

 

That is some funny stuff!!! I laughed out loud. True tho.

[benderbender]

We need a beefy line for Kolb/TJax to be up tempo. Especially Kolb. He strikes me as one concussion away from Trent Edwards.

[thewildrabbit]

But now you're using circular logic. You're saying that an offense line can look "respectable" through great QBing and offensive game planning. But, then at the same time aren't you saying that we don't need a QB, but a great line instead (the central tenant of this thread)?

 

You admit, and I agree, our current QBs are crap, so to what end would an elite OLman serve? That would be like installing a state-of-the-art security system on Ralph's 1988 Ford Taurus.

 

And from what we hear, Marrone will be installing some type of up-tempo WCO. A type of offense that relies on getting the ball out fast. From what you detailed above, our current OL should flourish under such a system.

Look, Gailey also made Fitz look half way decent every year with a bunch of yards passing (3158 in 2010, 3932 in 2011, 3400 in 2012). It doesn't mean his offense was any good at 16-32 after 3 years, he never figured out how to win games.

 

What amazes me is how good the Bills run game was and yet Gailey managed to under utilize it and had the broken backup QB try and emulate Tom Brady. Still, CJ Spiller finished the season with 1244 yards rushing and another 459 yards receiving. Usually when RB's get 100+ yards in a game usually their team wins, mostly because that team controls the clock with the running game. OTOH, In Gaileys spread offense the Bills would break off these big running plays to gain a lot of yards, but couldn't make a first down by running when they needed to. They couldn't get the push from the big men up front, so they couldn't control anything at any time when they really needed to.

 

Ok, so how does Marrone's up tempo WCO differ from Gaileys spread? If by that you infer that he will run his offense out of a "closed formation" then the Bills are in real trouble this year. Because they couldn't run out of closed sets very well at all. If he runs it from a spread offense the how will it differ from Gailey's offense if the QB doesn't have time to throw deep, or have an actual deep threat target?

 

 

Typically the good teams build the O line first thing, (Atlanta-Baltimore-San Fran-Houston) then they build the running game to support the QB and take the heat off of him. The Bills already possess two of the top RB's in the league in Spiller and Jackson. Now they need some road graders to open holes. Trust me on this guys, the current O line players are not gonna get it done as is.

Edited April 21, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[thebandit27]

Look, Gailey also made Fitz look half way decent every year with a bunch of yards passing (3158 in 2010, 3932 in 2011, 3400 in 2012). It doesn't mean his offense was any good at 16-32 after 3 years, he never figured out how to win games.

 

What amazes me is how good the Bills run game was and yet Gailey managed to under utilize it and had the broken backup QB try and emulate Tom Brady. Still, CJ Spiller finished the season with 1244 yards rushing and another 459 yards receiving. Usually when RB's get 100+ yards in a game usually their team wins, mostly because that team controls the clock with the running game. OTOH, In Gaileys spread offense the Bills would break off these big running plays to gain a lot of yards, but couldn't make a first down by running when they needed to. They couldn't get the push from the big men up front, so they couldn't control anything at any time when they really needed to.

 

Ok, so how does Marrone's up tempo WCO differ from Gaileys spread? If by that you infer that he will run his offense out of a "closed formation" then the Bills are in real trouble this year. Because they couldn't run out of closed sets very well at all. If he runs it from a spread offense the how will it differ from Gailey's offense if the QB doesn't have time to throw deep, or have an actual deep threat target?

 

 

Typically the good teams build the O line first thing, (Atlanta-Baltimore-San Fran-Houston) then they build the running game to support the QB and take the heat off of him. The Bills already possess two of the top RB's in the league in Spiller and Jackson. Now they need some road graders to open holes. Trust me on this guys, the current O line players are not gonna get it done as is.

 

That's not correct.

 

The good teams, the ones that win multiple Superbowls, get the QB first. New England had Brady before they ha Light, Mankins, Solder, Vollmer, etc. Pittsburgh had Big Ben and the worst pass blocking line in football when they beat Arizona in the Superbowl. The Giants had Eli long before they drafted Chris Snee and Will Beatty. The Ravens had Flacco before they drafted Oher & Osemele and signed McKinnie. The Packers had Aaron Rodgers before they drafted Newhouse, Bulaga, etc. The 49ers had Alex Smith (the highest rated QB in football when he got hurt) before they drafted Iupati or Davis.

 

Look, the OL is important, but next to the importance of a franchise QB it's a minor issue. As matter of fact it's not even close.

[Cheddar's Dad]

Every year after each Super Bowl, I can vividly remember thinking to myself either a) wow, what a performance by the LT, wouldn't have won that SB without him, or b) wow what a performance by that Guard, simply dominating, defense had no answer for him. Oh wait...

 

My guess is that you don't focus on line play. I've noticed an increased level of intensity in line play during playoff over the regular season and that having a tough coordinated line is the most important element to having successful QB, WR and RB play. The Ravens beat NE in the playoffs because it's o-line was able to play smash mouth with Wilfork and his crew and win. The line play was vicious. In fact, ask yourself, when talking about "smash mouth" football, what do you talk about? Is it the WR vs CBs, The QB play?. Or is that term exclusive to trench warfare. O-line play is under-appreciated by a lot of fans who only ocassionally observe that a successful run or pass succeeded only because some lineman made a great play.

 

 

You should get the book TAKE YOUR EYE OFF THE BALL, written by Pat Kirwin.

[thewildrabbit]

timestamp='[/color]1366549594' post='2785940']

That's not correct.

 

The good teams, the ones that win multiple Superbowls, get the QB first. New England had Brady before they ha Light, Mankins, Solder, Vollmer, etc. Pittsburgh had Big Ben and the worst pass blocking line in football when they beat Arizona in the Superbowl. The Giants had Eli long before they drafted Chris Snee and Will Beatty. The Ravens had Flacco before they drafted Oher & Osemele and signed McKinnie. The Packers had Aaron Rodgers before they drafted Newhouse, Bulaga, etc. The 49ers had Alex Smith (the highest rated QB in football when he got hurt) before they drafted Iupati or Davis.

 

Look, the OL is important, but next to the importance of a franchise QB it's a minor issue. As matter of fact it's not even close.

Seriously, what good is it to draft a franchise QB and then they let him get the snot beaten out of him while trying to develop him.AKA Losman / Edwards

 

Those teams you mention, were already pretty good previous to drafting that franchise QB.

 

The Patriots had been to a super bowl under Bill Parcells with Drew Bledsoe and then Pete Carroll took over and still got them into the playoffs. The first thing Parcells usually does is build a strong O line. Remember Curtis Martin and that great running game the Patriots had back then.

 

.The Ravens had one year under of being bad under Brian Billick 13-3 to 5-11 back up to 11-5 under John Harbough. The Ravens always had a strong running game to take the heat off the QB as they were usually a run first team. In another thread I pointed out that in 2009 Flacco's 2nd season the Ravens went up to New England for a Wildcard playoff game, and beat the Patriots 33-14. Do you recall Joe Flacco's stats that particular day?

I will never forget that day! Flacco was 4 for 10 for 34 yards total!!! The Ravens won that playoff game by rushing Ray Rice & Willis McGahee 52 times for 234 yards and 4 TD's while controlling the clock and the game. Talk about a perfect way to develop a QB properly!!

 

 

The Steelers were a run first team with Jerome Bettis at RB under HC Bill Cowher and went 15-1 in big bens first season in 2004 the Steelers had two first round picks on that line back then, and they ran to setuip the pass. Don't belive me? then look at the stats 358 attempts passing vs 618 attempts rushing.

 

 

The NY Giants had been to the playoffs under previous HC Jim Fassel and already had a decent team when Tom Coughlin took over in 2004. Kinda why they were 6-10 his first year nad 11-5 his second. The 2004 Giants were a run first team with Tiki Barber at RB. They also had Kurt Warner at QB to help develop Manning. In 2005, Manning's first year as a starting QB they did have Chris Snee & David Diehl at OG's and a #1 pick at LT. Stats 294 attempts passing vs 469 attempts rushing.

 

 

The Packers were a playoff team under previous HC Mike Sherman and also went to the playoffs under Mike MCCarthy with Brett Favre at QB in 2007, 13-3 .So Aaron Rodgers was drafted in 2005 and sat on the bench learning his craft behind legend QB Brett Favre. The WCO is like an elongated handoff, so the Packers did run a form of ball control thru passing.

 

The 49ers under HC Mike Singletary drafted both OT Anthony Davis and OG Mike Iupta in the 1st round in 2010. When Jim Harbough took over he inherited a team with a broken #1 pick overall QB that no other team even wanted. He might have had a high QB rating, but his team didn't win many games with him at QB. Again, the 49ers are a dominate running team under Harbough. The stats 451 passing vs 498 rushing. Under Harbough the team would run to setup the pass and let Alex Smith manage the game. Suddenly Alex Smith was a different QB and the team won games 13-3 his first year.

 

 

 

The Buffalo Bills are a completely different animal from all those winning teams. They have been losers for the last 13 years. Bad head coaches, bad schemes, bad talent evaluators, bad owner.and the entire franchise needs an overhaul. The ONLY way I see any QB having any kind of success on this team is for them to build a very powerful run first team. Trying to implement any kind of high powered passing offense with the current O line is going to be an effort in futility.

Edited April 21, 2013 by FeartheLosing