A Big Ugly

[thebandit27]

Seriously, what good is it to draft a franchise QB and then they let him get the snot beaten out of him while trying to develop him.AKA Losman / Edwards

 

Those teams you mention, were already pretty good previous to drafting that franchise QB.

 

The Patriots had been to a super bowl under Bill Parcells with Drew Bledsoe and then Pete Carroll took over and still got them into the playoffs. The first thing Parcells usually does is build a strong O line. Remember Curtis Martin and that great running game the Patriots had back then.

 

.The Ravens had one year under of being bad under Brian Billick 13-3 to 5-11 back up to 11-5 under John Harbough. The Ravens always had a strong running game to take the heat off the QB as they were usually a run first team. In another thread I pointed out that in 2009 Flacco's 2nd season the Ravens went up to New England for a Wildcard playoff game, and beat the Patriots 33-14. Do you recall Joe Flacco's stats that particular day?

I will never forget that day! Flacco was 4 for 10 for 34 yards total!!! The Ravens won that playoff game by rushing Ray Rice & Willis McGahee 52 times for 234 yards and 4 TD's while controlling the clock and the game. Talk about a perfect way to develop a QB properly!!

 

 

The Steelers were a run first team with Jerome Bettis at RB under HC Bill Cowher and went 15-1 in big bens first season in 2004 the Steelers had two first round picks on that line back then, and they ran to setuip the pass. Don't belive me? then look at the stats 358 attempts passing vs 618 attempts rushing.

 

 

The NY Giants had been to the playoffs under previous HC Jim Fassel and already had a decent team when Tom Coughlin took over in 2004. Kinda why they were 6-10 his first year nad 11-5 his second. The 2004 Giants were a run first team with Tiki Barber at RB. They also had Kurt Warner at QB to help develop Manning. In 2005, Manning's first year as a starting QB they did have Chris Snee & David Diehl at OG's and a #1 pick at LT. Stats 294 attempts passing vs 469 attempts rushing.

 

 

The Packers were a playoff team under previous HC Mike Sherman and also went to the playoffs under Mike MCCarthy with Brett Favre at QB in 2007, 13-3 .So Aaron Rodgers was drafted in 2005 and sat on the bench learning his craft behind legend QB Brett Favre. The WCO is like an elongated handoff, so the Packers did run a form of ball control thru passing.

 

The 49ers under HC Mike Singletary drafted both OT Anthony Davis and OG Mike Iupta in the 1st round in 2010. When Jim Harbough took over he inherited a team with a broken #1 pick overall QB that no other team even wanted. He might have had a high QB rating, but his team didn't win many games with him at QB. Again, the 49ers are a dominate running team under Harbough. The stats 451 passing vs 498 rushing. Under Harbough the team would run to setup the pass and let Alex Smith manage the game. Suddenly Alex Smith was a different QB and the team won games 13-3 his first year.

 

 

 

The Buffalo Bills are a completely different animal from all those winning teams. They have been losers for the last 13 years. Bad head coaches, bad schemes, bad talent evaluators, bad owner.and the entire franchise needs an overhaul. The ONLY way I see any QB having any kind of success on this team is for them to build a very powerful run first team. Trying to implement any kind of high powered passing offense with the current O line is going to be an effort in futility.

 

So because Those teams had success in the past it negates my point? No. You have to look at how the current team was put together. In every case, the team placed QB as the first priority.

 

Belichick had Bledsoe for 1 year and drafted Brady. Harbaugh drafted Flacco in his first year.

 

I think it says a lot about your stance if you're makin claims that teams like GB are "running a form of ball control by passing"...that's basically relying on the QB and not the OL.

 

As I said, it's not that the OL isn't important, it's just that the QB is far more so. Guys like Rodgers and Big Ben have shown that it doesn't take a great OL to win, it takes a QB.

 

The examples you cite don't support the "build the OL first" mentality. I mean, Baltimore had to reshuffle their line twice during the season (with Osemele moving from guard to tackle and back) and not because of injury.

 

I know we're not going to agree on this, so I'll back out of your thread by offering this one final thought:

 

I have zero issues with an OLmen at 8, as long as this team comes out with a franchise QB. Without one, they're going nowhere fast.

[3rdand12]

I mostly agree... and will add that the Bills Offensive Line usually didn't get much of a push on 3rd and short situations. It was concerning. And now we've lost Levitre.

I am going to get hung for this but..

Levitre weakness was third and short. No road grader by any means. Very good in space and the second level..

 

Marrone has to build this line as he sees fit to be a running team.

Chan did a lot of compromising to appear as good as they did last couple years.

Someone said we draft poorly in the later rounds. I dont think that matters inbuilding the oline because we scavenge players from the teams who just drafted high for those postions and take what falls out. It's a Buddy thing does it work.? not sure.

If Doug truly wants to run the ball we should find out which two of our six guards are really as competent as Buddy says. And can Wood stay on the field ?

our tackles are all set imo

Edited April 21, 2013 by 3rdand12

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Marrone is a former NFL O-lineman and O-line Coach.

 

I have zero concerns about our O-line.

[Cheddar's Dad]

Marrone is a former NFL O-lineman and O-line Coach.

 

I have zero concerns about our O-line.

 

So; what position along the O-line do you think he'll fit best?

[Saint Doug]

Marrone is a former NFL O-lineman and O-line Coach.

 

I have zero concerns about our O-line.

 

But most importantly, neither does Nix. In fact, he's shown his lack of concern by 1) letting the best OG on the team walk, 2) telling the Bucs GM that they are "set" with tackles, and basically telling the media they have "more talent than people think" with the current OLmen. Say what you will and reason how you may, but we will not be selecting an o-lineman with #8. Period.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

But most importantly, neither does Nix. In fact, he's shown his lack of concern by 1) letting the best OG on the team walk, 2) telling the Bucs GM that they are "set" with tackles, and basically telling the media they have "more talent than people think" with the current OLmen. Say what you will and reason how you may, but we will not be selecting an o-lineman with #8. Period.

 

And that's fine because I don't want the Bills to draft an O-lineman at #8, thus my comment about having no concerns.

[thewildrabbit]

So because Those teams had success in the past it negates my point? No. You have to look at how the current team was put together. In every case, the team placed QB as the first priority.

 

Belichick had Bledsoe for 1 year and drafted Brady. Harbaugh drafted Flacco in his first year.

 

I think it says a lot about your stance if you're makin claims that teams like GB are "running a form of ball control by passing"...that's basically relying on the QB and not the OL.

 

As I said, it's not that the OL isn't important, it's just that the QB is far more so. Guys like Rodgers and Big Ben have shown that it doesn't take a great OL to win, it takes a QB.

 

The examples you cite don't support the "build the OL first" mentality. I mean, Baltimore had to reshuffle their line twice during the season (with Osemele moving from guard to tackle and back) and not because of injury.

 

I know we're not going to agree on this, so I'll back out of your thread by offering this one final thought:

 

I have zero issues with an OLmen at 8, as long as this team comes out with a franchise QB. Without one, they're going nowhere fast.

That success was very recent, like one or two years away from the playoffs. If a team has been to the playoffs recently they probably don't have as many great needs as say a team like the Buffalo Bills (13 years) who are constantly rebuilding. Those teams didn't need a complete overhaul of the roster because they had recently been in the playoffs.

 

Just gonna go thru two examples again here,

 

The Ravens had one bad year, 13-3 to 5-11 fired Brian Billick then back to 11-5 under Harbough, who saw all they needed was a decent QB. Their run first philosophy was retained by the president Ozzie Newsome / OC Cam Cameron who built a power run game to support that rookie QB.

 

The Steelers had one bad year 11-5 super bowl win to 8-8 then Cowher retired and then back to 10-6 under Mike Tomlin. That was already Big Ben's fourth year and he had already developed under HC Bill Cowher and OC Ken Wisenhunt.. Under Tomlin, and new OC Bruce Arians went away from the run first offense and let Roethlisberger air it out more. You know Arians, the same guy who Tutored Andrew Luck last year and was the interim HC is now the HC in Arizona.

 

 

The thing we both agree on is that the Bills are desperate for that proverbial franchise QB. "IF" he is in the draft I say take him at #8, like you do. The problem is, I don't trust this regime to draft a player that needs some development, and then develop him properly like Big Ben and Joe Flacco who weren't projected as franchise starters from day one like RG3 / Andrew Luck.

 

This franchise has gotten it wrong so many times in the past I just don't see them suddenly getting it right with this weak draft class. Every QB in this class needs an extra amount of developing. I'd say more so then both Big Ben and Joe Flacco. I'm hearing some scouts say they wouldn't touch any QB in the first round this year, even if they were as desperate as the Buffalo Bills.

[thewildrabbit]

But most importantly, neither does Nix. In fact, he's shown his lack of concern by 1) letting the best OG on the team walk, 2) telling the Bucs GM that they are "set" with tackles, and basically telling the media they have "more talent than people think" with the current OLmen. Say what you will and reason how you may, but we will not be selecting an o-lineman with #8. Period.

Buddy Nix and his lack of concern...

 

At some point in the future I think most Bills fans are going to look back and state. Wow, what a complete and utter boob Buddy Nix was... I've already been saying that for the past three years.

 

From his statements "we're not that far away", "I know I'm not the smartest guy in the room" to a bunch of media types. When free agency opened in 2010 he stated publicly he was "going to get some sleep" The result was FA RT Cornell Green at 2 mill per. That player was so bad he played in like 5 games, was benched and then quietly cut.

 

Simply look at Nix letting Gailey put his faith in QB Trent Edwards, then cutting him after two games. Then giving big money to a career back up QB in Fitz. Meanwhile the past 3 years the Bills ignored the QB position in the draft.

 

I honestly think Buddy Nix would fail to find a good QB even if the guy came up and have him a swift kick

 

As I've already stated, I know Nix will not take an O lineman at #8. Kinda why I'm hoping Marrone has some say in things.

Edited April 22, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[Dibs]

Buddy Nix and his lack of concern...

 

At some point in the future I think most Bills fans are going to look back and state. Wow, what a complete and utter boob Buddy Nix was... I've already been saying that for the past three years.

 

From his statements "we're not that far away", "I know I'm not the smartest guy in the room" to a bunch of media types. When free agency opened in 2010 he stated publicly he was "going to get some sleep" The result was FA RT Cornell Green at 2 mill per. That player was so bad he played in like 5 games, was benched and then quietly cut.

 

Simply look at Nix letting Gailey put his faith in QB Trent Edwards, then cutting him after two games. Then giving big money to a career back up QB in Fitz. Meanwhile the past 3 years the Bills ignored the QB position in the draft.

 

I honestly think Buddy Nix would fail to find a good QB even if the guy came up and have him a swift kick

 

As I've already stated, I know Nix will not take an O lineman at #8. Kinda why I'm hoping Marrone has some say in things.

 

You seem to have totally ignored the possibility that we actually are better on the OL(including depth) than most people think(as Nix stated).....and that Morrone has assessed this to be the case as well.

 

I dislike Nix for various reasons. None of which however are due to the OL. If anything, I would say that Nix has had a knack for finding solid/good OLmen in his tenure at the Bills......and in that regard, I am willing to give him(& Marrone) the benefit of the doubt at this point.

[thewildrabbit]

You seem to have totally ignored the possibility that we actually are better on the OL(including depth) than most people think(as Nix stated).....and that Morrone has assessed this to be the case as well.

 

I dislike Nix for various reasons. None of which however are due to the OL. If anything, I would say that Nix has had a knack for finding solid/good OLmen in his tenure at the Bills......and in that regard, I am willing to give him(& Marrone) the benefit of the doubt at this point.

I didn't ignore anything. I go by what my eyes actually see, and by logic.

 

I'm done slamming Buddy Nix, and I'm so tired of beating that dead horse, I really am. Its carcass is so decrepit it looks like a thousand people have tread across it.

 

 

I can only think you didn't read thru this thread or you would have seen my points in other posts about the decencies in the current line, and as to why it looked decent with Fitz at QB and in Gailey's offense.

 

I'm not the only person on the planet that thinks this O line is no where near as good as Nix thinks it is. NFL Networks Mike Mayock on the subject:

 

"NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock does not think West Virginia QB Geno Smith, who some regard as a top-10 pick, is a good fit for Buffalo because he has fared poorly in bad weather. Mayock thinks No. 8 is too high to take a QB.

 

“Do you want Matt Barkley or Ryan Nassib or E.J. Manuel at 8?” Mayock asked. “That’s way too high for me. Buddy can be sitting there going, ‘Hey, I don’t care what round I get my quarterback in, I just need to get him.’ And I understand that. But for me I’d rather get a positional player at 8 that’s gonna help me immediately. And hopefully its an offensive lineman.”

 

“I’m gonna get somebody that I can plug in to make our team better,” Mayock said. “Then I’m going to come back in. If I have to come back in and trade up and get to 26 to 32, I’ll do that.”

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130421/SPORTS/130429832/two-bills-drive-1004

 

Its not rocket science here, in fact its rather simple to see that the top 15 picks in this years draft are loaded with some very good to stellar O linemen. 3 top LT's one top RT, 2 top OG's. 6 excellent players and the bills pick 8th. What a great year to build that line.

[ganesh]

So. Who is your impact guy? Last two times the Bills picked thos high... Mike Williams, Donte Whitner.

 

Who says Buddy's making the pick? I believe the pick will be based on a consensus of 3 people... Buddy, and the two Dougs. And the two Dougs outnumber the one Buddy.

 

The Bills also picked Dareus @ #3, Spiller at 9

[thebandit27]

I didn't ignore anything. I go by what my eyes actually see, and by logic.

 

I'm done slamming Buddy Nix, and I'm so tired of beating that dead horse, I really am. Its carcass is so decrepit it looks like a thousand people have tread across it.

 

 

I can only think you didn't read thru this thread or you would have seen my points in other posts about the decencies in the current line, and as to why it looked decent with Fitz at QB and in Gailey's offense.

 

I'm not the only person on the planet that thinks this O line is no where near as good as Nix thinks it is. NFL Networks Mike Mayock on the subject:

 

"NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock does not think West Virginia QB Geno Smith, who some regard as a top-10 pick, is a good fit for Buffalo because he has fared poorly in bad weather. Mayock thinks No. 8 is too high to take a QB.

 

“Do you want Matt Barkley or Ryan Nassib or E.J. Manuel at 8?” Mayock asked. “That’s way too high for me. Buddy can be sitting there going, ‘Hey, I don’t care what round I get my quarterback in, I just need to get him.’ And I understand that. But for me I’d rather get a positional player at 8 that’s gonna help me immediately. And hopefully its an offensive lineman.”

 

“I’m gonna get somebody that I can plug in to make our team better,” Mayock said. “Then I’m going to come back in. If I have to come back in and trade up and get to 26 to 32, I’ll do that.”

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130421/SPORTS/130429832/two-bills-drive-1004

 

Its not rocket science here, in fact its rather simple to see that the top 15 picks in this years draft are loaded with some very good to stellar O linemen. 3 top LT's one top RT, 2 top OG's. 6 excellent players and the bills pick 8th. What a great year to build that line.

 

Mayock was saying that the best value at the 8th pick was an OLmen, not that Buffalo should specifically be addressing the OL.

 

And he's right, the best value at 8 is probably an OL or pass rusher; save obviously for a franchise QB (and most folks aren't sold on one at 8).

[thewildrabbit]

Mayock was saying that the best value at the 8th pick was an OLmen, not that Buffalo should specifically be addressing the OL.

 

And he's right, the best value at 8 is probably an OL or pass rusher; save obviously for a franchise QB (and most folks aren't sold on one at 8).

Well, when Mayock states "And hopefully its an offensive lineman.” I take that as he is looking at the current Bills line and sees needs, just like I do. Otherwise he would have talked up another position.

 

The entire point for this thread was to make argument for building an O line similar to the current 49ers O line. A line that can dominate in every aspect offensively, running in any fashion, any scheme, and giving whatever QB time in the pocket to throw. Thus allowing almost any QB the Bills have behind center to succeed.

 

I tried to get you guys to see things from my perspective, and most of you would rather take Buddy's stance, thats fine.

[Saint Doug]

 

 

And that's fine because I don't want the Bills to draft an O-lineman at #8, thus my comment about having no concerns.

 

I wasn't attacking your comment, I was highlighting it.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I wasn't attacking your comment, I was highlighting it.

 

Sorry.

 

Between Sisyphus and WEO I've gotten a little jumpy around here. Having a hard time sleeping, when I do sleep I have nightmares about message board arguments… my boss told me I looked terrible this morning…

[RK_BillsFan]

I feel that while the talent of OL is there. we have other needs. No QB is going to win in the current league with no one to throw too and having to score a ton of points to make up for the D's inability to stop anything.

 

I'm also not really hoping for a QB this year as much as it is a need. I would be ok with picking a qb with our 3rd pick or later. We have a really rough schedule and i'm hoping we have an interesting transition season.

Edited April 22, 2013 by RK_BillsFan