CodeMonkey Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Jets/Giants new stadium $1.7 Billion in 2012 dollars Cowboys new stadium $1.4 Billion in 2012 dollars Bills are asking for $200 million ($0.2 Billion). i'd say that is the best option. Cowboys Percentage of public financing: 28.6% The city of Arlington's sales tax was raised by a half-cent, the hotel occupancy tax was raised by 2 percent and a car rental tax was increased by 5 percent. Jets/Giants Percentage of public financing: 0% Bills Percentage of public financing: 100% Unclear where the money would come from. If they raised local, non income, taxes like for the Cowboys I wouldn't hate it as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 There's no doubt that the merrits of using taxpayer dollars to support NFL teams is a topic that is ready made for debate, but at the end of the day I feel like the Bills have done a pretty good job of doing improvements to the current facility in order to keep the expense small enough- relatively speaking- to make it affordable to WNY. Also, one thing to think about is the source of the funds to pay back the bonds for the deal. If they surcharge tickets OR take a slice of the parking OR whatever, it might then be paid off in part from outside dollars (folks coming in from out of town for the game and spending dollars in WNY/at games). BTW, I bet the Bills could pay for at least 25% of the improvments if they placed a $1 surcharge on beer. I mean, if we're already paying like $8.50 a beer, what's another dollar? It's already crossed the affordability threshold! $5 surcharge on parking $1 on beer $5 on tickets Field naming rights (xxxx Field @ Ralph Wilson Stadium) Commercial development on RWS property ala Patriot Place Over 15 years that's a good chunk of change. Probably 70-75% of the cost. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 BTW, I bet the Bills could pay for at least 25% of the improvments if they placed a $1 surcharge on beer. I mean, if we're already paying like $8.50 a beer, what's another dollar? It's already crossed the affordability threshold! That's 50 million beers man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebug Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 if they get a lease that guarantees that my team will remain in Buffalo for the next 15-20 years, I would gladly pay an additional 20% or more for my season tickets. Me too..... That's 50 million beers man I'm willing to do my part! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I'm reading all the bitchy comments about Ralph on the BuffNews site but the Bills are choosing the least expensive option here. The fact is RWS is a county facility. If you don't want to spend money maintaining it you will eventually spend money demolishing it. The Bills are asking for the minimum to keep the Bills viable in Buffalo. If it's too rich for us then maybe we can't afford to be part of the NFL. Get Phil Anshutz on the phone. Just did a little figuring: You can raise $200M by raising ticket prices an average of $21 dollars over 15 years. What if you raise tickets by $10, sell bonds, sell naming rights to the field (XXX Field @ RWS), sell bricks, etc etc etc? You can make this work without sticking taxpayers with the tab. PTR Unless you think the Bills are going to offer something they have never offered before (paying for any part of the renovations) then raising ticket prices will only make Ralphus more money, assuming people still buy them. They aren't making any such offer. Phil Anshutz is busy staring at the puff of smoke that was his "LA stadium" dream. There's no doubt that the merrits of using taxpayer dollars to support NFL teams is a topic that is ready made for debate, but at the end of the day I feel like the Bills have done a pretty good job of doing improvements to the current facility in order to keep the expense small enough- relatively speaking- to make it affordable to WNY. Also, one thing to think about is the source of the funds to pay back the bonds for the deal. If they surcharge tickets OR take a slice of the parking OR whatever, it might then be paid off in part from outside dollars (folks coming in from out of town for the game and spending dollars in WNY/at games). BTW, I bet the Bills could pay for at least 25% of the improvments if they placed a $1 surcharge on beer. I mean, if we're already paying like $8.50 a beer, what's another dollar? It's already crossed the affordability threshold! The Bills have done nothing as far as improvements. That has all been funded by government. What are you talking about? The best part of this is that when the price was 100 million, many here were all for it because it was viewed as "inexpensive". Now, the new estimate has doubled that price and the same guys don't blink an eye at saying "just give it to them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haven Moses Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Its not like there is no return on the investment. Probably about half of the $200 mil will be paid out for labor, creating jobs that pay taxes. The Bills pay taxes and generate revenue that would go if they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayboy54 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 How's that new Peace Bridge coming along? That's what I thought. Pay the 200M and be quiet about it then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsoldier54 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 That is crazy high It's all relative. I live in Newfoundland and the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST) is 13%. In Erie County the rate for NYS and county tax combined is 8.75%. Don't ask me where all that money goes, because the roads are crap and the schools are crap and we don't have a stadium to subsidize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I am at a loss on what the money is for...I rean Brandons comments regarding what the $ would be used for - widening access, moving the fences out, parking improvements etc. None of the mentioned improvements I saw lead to greater revenue for the Bills - that is - more boxes, greater occupancy etc. I don't attend many games - but I just don't see what you can do to RWS at this point that is really going to make me want to go more - in fact I would never go see a game because of a venue... Better performance by the team would be the primary cause of more revenue - and if I was at the table on behalf of the taxpayers I would ask firmly what the Bills are going to do on their behalf to imporve their performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley Dear Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 The NFL has a fund for teams to get upto $200 million for stadium construction projects, it's called the G4 loan program. As I understand it, it's not really a "loan" because teams can use the money from gate receipts that they would have had to share with the league anyway, to pay it back. That means the NFL is actually the entity paying the money. To qualify for the full $200 the project needs to be greater than $400 mil. Now I don't know this as fact, I admit I'm speculating here, but it's a reasonable assumption that the Bills could qualify for $100 mill in NFL financing. The fairest deal would be for the county and team to split the $200 mil down the middle. I don't think NYS will balk at a $100 mil price tag especially if the team is making a an equal commitment to the region. The Bills could then justify a significant increase in ticket prices and actually profit on the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Better performance by the team would be the primary cause of more revenue - and if I was at the table on behalf of the taxpayers I would ask firmly what the Bills are going to do on their behalf to imporve their performance. That's exactly how the cynic in me looked at the Mario Williams signing. At first the fan in me was like "Sweet!" Then the cynic in me was like "Hmm... This certainly looks like an attempt to bolster political capital/public opinion at the onset of stadium lease negotiations." But then the fan in me came back and said: "Shut up! If it helps us WIN, who cares??" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I am at a loss on what the money is for...I rean Brandons comments regarding what the $ would be used for - widening access, moving the fences out, parking improvements etc. None of the mentioned improvements I saw lead to greater revenue for the Bills - that is - more boxes, greater occupancy etc. I don't attend many games - but I just don't see what you can do to RWS at this point that is really going to make me want to go more - in fact I would never go see a game because of a venue... Better performance by the team would be the primary cause of more revenue - and if I was at the table on behalf of the taxpayers I would ask firmly what the Bills are going to do on their behalf to imporve their performance. The concourses get jam packed, especially at the 100 level. If there ever was a reason to evacuate it would not be pretty. You can't blow out walls but you can build a new restroom/concession area outside of the stadium and enclose it, which would require moving the gates out. It's actually a great idea and more for fan comfort and safety than generating extra revenue. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebug Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Yeah I hope the build new washrooms! I would be nice to bang chicks in newer stalls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 The concourses get jam packed, especially at the 100 level. If there ever was a reason to evacuate it would not be pretty. You can't blow out walls but you can build a new restroom/concession area outside of the stadium and enclose it, which would require moving the gates out. It's actually a great idea and more for fan comfort and safety than generating extra revenue. PTR I've noticed what a difference makes with just 10 extra feet at some of the other stadiums I've been to, how less crowded you feel walking through the concourse before and after a game. Maybe the plan is to remove those areas, but leave the support structure intact, opening up the concourses more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I've noticed what a difference makes with just 10 extra feet at some of the other stadiums I've been to, how less crowded you feel walking through the concourse before and after a game. Maybe the plan is to remove those areas, but leave the support structure intact, opening up the concourses more. The story in the news made it sound like they can't take away much. Maybe cut a walkway through. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) Ok - so they move the fences out $200 million? Did anyone ever think - "I was going to go to the game....but those darn fences are too tight!" No renovations and playoff team = LOTS of new revenue!! $400 million in renovations and 4-12 = No new revenue Still don't get how stadium reno's equal more revenue - unless the Bills get a check for $200 million and they skim 50-100 off the top. I am in the business and have actually worked on many stadium projects - the scope of what the Bills are referring to does not equal $200+ Edited April 17, 2012 by baskin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) Ok - so they move the fences out $200 million? Did anyone ever think - "I was going to go to the game....but those darn fences are too tight!" No renovations and playoff team = LOTS of new revenue!! $400 million in renovations and 4-12 = No new revenue Still don't get how stadium reno's equal more revenue - unless the Bills get a check for $200 million and they skim 50-100 off the top. I am in the business and have actually worked on many stadium projects - the scope of what the Bills are referring to does not equal $200+ I don't think the point of the renovations is revenue. But I'm not positive because I don't really understand the point of these renovations in the first place. I see the word "modernize" thrown around and some seem to think its critical to keeping the Bills in Buffalo for some reason. But none of it makes any sense to me. It feels like a $200 million boondoggle. Bottom line for me is as long as it is self-funded by subsidies on ticket prices, concessions, parking, etc. I'm good with it. But since it has no bearing on fan safety, to me that makes it unnecessary. So I don't want any public money going into it at all. Not that my opinion on the matter amounts to squat Edited April 17, 2012 by CodeMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) I don't think the point of the renovations is revenue. But I'm not positive because I don't really understand the point of these renovations in the first place. I see the word "modernize" thrown around and some seem to think its critical to keeping the Bills in Buffalo for some reason. But none of it makes any sense to me. It feels like a $200 million boondoggle. Bottom line for me is as long as it is self-funded by subsidies on ticket prices, concessions, parking, etc. I'm good with it. But since it has no bearing on fan safety, to me that makes it unnecessary. So I don't want any public money going into it at all. Not that my opinion on the matter amounts to squat Do you go to games? It is like a sardine can in the concourses pre-game and half time. It's at least uncomfortable and inconvenient, and at worst dangerous. This renovation is badly needed. PTR Edited April 17, 2012 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Do you go to games? It is like a sardine can in the concourses pre-game and half time. It's at least uncomfortable and inconvenient, and at worst dangerous. This renovation is badly needed. PTR Yes, and "expanding" the footprint by building outside the stadium and covering those areas will widen concourse inside, but also I think expand access points outside, maybe keep the gates from getting to congested at noon-12:30 when everyone's headed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) Do you go to games? It is like a sardine can in the concourses pre-game and half time. It's at least uncomfortable and inconvenient, and at worst dangerous. This renovation is badly needed. PTR Not many in recent years. "uncomfortable and inconvenient" isn't necessary to change. Not saying it is a bad idea, just not mandatory. If it was deemed dangerous then it would be mandatory, not called "modernizing". So apparently the state disagrees with your assessment that it is dangerous. From everything I have read to date, no one is saying any of these renovations are required. Or did I miss something? If they are things that the Bills want for fan comfort or whatever and the Bills deem them as badly needed then fine, fund them with fan money. That's all I'm saying. Edited April 17, 2012 by CodeMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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