Where does Fitzpatrick Rank?

[John from Riverside]

Cam Newton is all world and will probably win some Super Bowls before all is said and done. He only threw for 4000 plus yards as a ROOKIE.

 

Plenty of credibility. Cam is elite, Cam is 30x better than Fitz can dream of bud.....

 

Cam Newton has had ONE good year filled with interceptions.......

 

Lets see how he does now that defensive coaches have game tape on him

[Since 1972]

Cam Newton has had ONE good year filled with interceptions.......

 

Lets see how he does now that defensive coaches have game tape on him

A year filled with interceptions and having your offense figured out by defensive coaches...sounds just like another team I know.

[Billsrhody]

Since when are playoff teams bad?

Since when is Peyton Manning good? He's elite.

 

Agreed. What I was trying to say is that the Broncos will be miles better this year. Also, I'm using the term "good" very loosely. In this case I'm referring to those "elite" players when I'm talking about good QBs.

[Maury Ballstein]

Cam Newton has had ONE good year filled with interceptions.......

 

Lets see how he does now that defensive coaches have game tape on him

 

 

John your the man and i like your insight always but on this one I agree to disagree. Cam also ran for 10 plus TD's. It was one amazing year and he has a cannon for an arm with accuracy and he runs for first downs on the regular. I remember the days when all rookie qb's struggled, I may be wrong but Cam will only get better.

[Kelly the Dog]

Well what makes him a good Quarterback? Here's a quote from wikipedia, "His record as a starter was 35–101–3 (26.3%), the worst in NFL history among QBs with at least 100 starts.[12] He retired having never played on a team that notched a winning record or made the playoffs."

 

So he didnt win... he didnt have good stats (125 TDS, 173 INTS). I'm not old enough to have watched him play, but it doesn't seem like we can classify him as a good QB.

I watched him play. All of the people I watched football with watched him play. Frankly, I have never talked to even one person who ever watched him play that didn't think Archie Manning was a good if not very good QB and there were probably hundreds over the years. Virtually everyone thought he was good.

[Billsrhody]

I watched him play. All of the people I watched football with watched him play. Frankly, I have never talked to even one person who ever watched him play that didn't think Archie Manning was a good if not very good QB and there were probably hundreds over the years. Virtually everyone thought he was good.

 

Point taken. That was before my time and I guess it was just a different era and a different game. It's still a little hard to believe that a QB who won 35 games over the course of a 15 year career can be considered good. He averaged less than 3 wins a year!

 

Is it fair to say that if he was a QB with that track record in this day and age, he wouldn't last more than half a season?

[Kelly the Dog]

Point taken. That was before my time and I guess it was just a different era and a different game. It's still a little hard to believe that a QB who won 35 games over the course of a 15 year career can be considered good. He averaged less than 3 wins a year!

 

Is it fair to say that if he was a QB with that track record in this day and age, he wouldn't last more than half a season?

You can't really compare the two eras. The Saints were an expansion team when Manning got there and there was no such thing as free agency. They didn't have a front office that drafted well and they had extremely little talent besides Manning. You can fix that overnight now, so he wouldn't have spent his entire career surrounded by crap.

 

Personally, I think Steve Young was the best QB of all-time, everyone has their personal choice. But for me, he did everything Montana could do, plus he could scramble and run, was tough and smart as hell, won a ton of games and a Super Bowl or two, could throw long, medium or short. He did everything well. He played two years on a terrible Tampa Bay expansion team and did nothing. Granted, he was in his first couple years, but still.

[Billsrhody]

You can't really compare the two eras. The Saints were an expansion team when Manning got there and there was no such thing as free agency. They didn't have a front office that drafted well and they had extremely little talent besides Manning. You can fix that overnight now, so he wouldn't have spent his entire career surrounded by crap.

 

Personally, I think Steve Young was the best QB of all-time, everyone has their personal choice. But for me, he did everything Montana could do, plus he could scramble and run, was tough and smart as hell, won a ton of games and a Super Bowl or two, could throw long, medium or short. He did everything well. He played two years on a terrible Tampa Bay expansion team and did nothing. Granted, he was in his first couple years, but still.

 

I hear what you're saying. Terry Bradshaw played in nearly the exact same time frame and is considered one of the great QBs in the history of the NFL. He only threw 212 TDs and 210 INTs. So I guess that adds some perspective to it.

 

Back to my original point though.. in this era, good qb's will turn a bad team into a good team.

[Kelly the Dog]

I hear what you're saying. Terry Bradshaw played in nearly the exact same time frame and is considered one of the great QBs in the history of the NFL. He only threw 212 TDs and 210 INTs. So I guess that adds some perspective to it.

 

Back to my original point though.. in this era, good qb's will turn a bad team into a good team.

IMO good quarterbacks also need other things going for them. It's really impossible to say, but I think Brady is one of the top three QBs in the game and I think he would have been absolutely terrible on the Bills last year from the point that Fitz started playing bad, like, say, the last 10 games. If Brady got the immediate pressure that Fitz had to face and took the pounding that Fitzpatrick did, and didn't have time to throw or receivers to get separation, he would have crumbled and become shell shocked and threw as many or more INTs than Fitz did. And I think Brady is great.

[NewEra]

1334254114[/url]' post='2435493']

You can't really compare the two eras. The Saints were an expansion team when Manning got there and there was no such thing as free agency. They didn't have a front office that drafted well and they had extremely little talent besides Manning. You can fix that overnight now, so he wouldn't have spent his entire career surrounded by crap.

 

Personally, I think Steve Young was the best QB of all-time, everyone has their personal choice. But for me, he did everything Montana could do, plus he could scramble and run, was tough and smart as hell, won a ton of games and a Super Bowl or two, could throw long, medium or short. He did everything well. He played two years on a terrible Tampa Bay expansion team and did nothing. Granted, he was in his first couple years, but still.

 

I agree with your assessment of Young. I also believe he's the best ever.

[Billsrhody]

IMO good quarterbacks also need other things going for them. It's really impossible to say, but I think Brady is one of the top three QBs in the game and I think he would have been absolutely terrible on the Bills last year from the point that Fitz started playing bad, like, say, the last 10 games. If Brady got the immediate pressure that Fitz had to face and took the pounding that Fitzpatrick did, and didn't have time to throw or receivers to get separation, he would have crumbled and become shell shocked and threw as many or more INTs than Fitz did. And I think Brady is great.

 

Well I disagree with you here. If Brady was on the Bills last year I think they would have been a 10 win team. He can make all the throws and all the pre snap reads. He knows where he is going to throw the ball before the play begins half the time. I think having a QB like that makes a world of difference.

[Kelly the Dog]

Well I disagree with you here. If Brady was on the Bills last year I think they would have been a 10 win team. He can make all the throws and all the pre snap reads. He knows where he is going to throw the ball before the play begins half the time. I think having a QB like that makes a world of difference.

When the Bills were healthy and playing well, that was Fitz's strong point too. That is why Nelson and especially Chandler were very effective, because Fitz read the defense pre-snap and knew where he was going with the ball before the snap and exploited mismatches. When the OL crumbled and his receivers went down, he could no longer do that because he didn't have the time or the multiple weapons or the guys like Nelson and Chandler and sometimes Jones running down the field and beating lesser defenders. And regardless of knowing where you were going with the ball, if you do not have time for the receivers to get to their spots or run their patterns or get separation or be in the right spot or be able to see them, it doesn't matter if you know where you are going to go with the ball, you can't get there. And IMO Brady would have not only been flustered but physically abused. He doesn't like when he doesn't have 4-5 seconds to throw let alone 2-3.

[mountainwampus]

Well I disagree with you here. If Brady was on the Bills last year I think they would have been a 10 win team. He can make all the throws and all the pre snap reads. He knows where he is going to throw the ball before the play begins half the time. I think having a QB like that makes a world of difference.

 

One thing that Brady has always had going for him is epic amounts of time in the pocket, his entire career. Matt Light deserves a lot of the credit. Mankins is also superb. What I do notice, is that Brady plays horrible after getting hit. Look at what happened when they played in Buf last year. Merriman got to him, grabbed his shin. Brady proceeded to throw bad passes, 4 INTs, the rest is history. Last years super bowl is another great example. Fitzy can take the hits. I've never seen Fitz cry to the refs like a little biatch, either.

[Maury Ballstein]

Well I disagree with you here. If Brady was on the Bills last year I think they would have been a 10 win team. He can make all the throws and all the pre snap reads. He knows where he is going to throw the ball before the play begins half the time. I think having a QB like that makes a world of difference.

 

 

agree wholeheartedly

[Alphadawg7]

One thing that Brady has always had going for him is epic amounts of time in the pocket, his entire career. Matt Light deserves a lot of the credit. Mankins is also superb. What I do notice, is that Brady plays horrible after getting hit. Look at what happened when they played in Buf last year. Merriman got to him, grabbed his shin. Brady proceeded to throw bad passes, 4 INTs, the rest is history. Last years super bowl is another great example. Fitzy can take the hits. I've never seen Fitz cry to the refs like a little biatch, either.

 

Im so tired of this myth statement thrown around here by Bills fans. Brady has time in the pocket because of Brady, not because its the best O Line in football. Brady is one of the best, if not the best, QB in the NFL at using footwork to buy himself time in the pocket and is one of the most pocket mobile QB's in the league at sliding to avoid pressure to allow the time to make the play.

 

Brady was one of the least sacked QB's in the NFL the year before his knee injury and one of the least sacked QB's in the NFL the year after his knee injury...HOWEVER, the one year he missed when he had his knee torn up in the first game, NE gave up the MOST sacks in the entire NFL with Cassel playing behind the exact same line. Great QB's who can read the D, know where the pressure is coming from, adjust the line, make quick reads, use foot work to slide away from the pressure etc and will make the OL look a lot better because of that.

 

Brady has time because of how excellent Brady is pre snap and maneuvering in the pocket. Cassel behind NE line = Most sacked QB in the NFL...Brady behind same line = One of least sacked QB's in the NFL. Case Closed, myth dispelled...

 

IMO good quarterbacks also need other things going for them. It's really impossible to say, but I think Brady is one of the top three QBs in the game and I think he would have been absolutely terrible on the Bills last year from the point that Fitz started playing bad, like, say, the last 10 games. If Brady got the immediate pressure that Fitz had to face and took the pounding that Fitzpatrick did, and didn't have time to throw or receivers to get separation, he would have crumbled and become shell shocked and threw as many or more INTs than Fitz did. And I think Brady is great.

 

No disrespect, but I absolutely disagree with this statement...there is more than enough talent on this offense for Brady to succeed and do it a lot better than Fitz. We win a min of 10 games last year, and maybe go to 11 or 12 wins with Brady.

 

Lets see, Brady only led the statistically WORST defense in NFL HISTORY to the SB with only one good WR who is a possession WR, a weak running game, and elite TE. Buffalo has ELITE RB depth, a top WR, and a decent TE, and a WR core that would have GREATLY benefited from catching passes from Brady over Fitz and a better D than NE had last year...Brady was one dropped pass from being a 4 time SB champion and another SB MVP...

 

I am sorry, but to say we wouldnt win 10 games with Brady instead of Fitz last year is comical at best...

[Kelly the Dog]

Im so tired of this myth statement thrown around here by Bills fans. Brady has time in the pocket because of Brady, not because its the best O Line in football. Brady is one of the best, if not the best, QB in the NFL at using footwork to buy himself time in the pocket and is one of the most pocket mobile QB's in the league at sliding to avoid pressure to allow the time to make the play.

 

Brady was one of the least sacked QB's in the NFL the year before his knee injury and one of the least sacked QB's in the NFL the year after his knee injury...HOWEVER, the one year he missed when he had his knee torn up in the first game, NE gave up the MOST sacks in the entire NFL with Cassel playing behind the exact same line. Great QB's who can read the D, know where the pressure is coming from, adjust the line, make quick reads, use foot work to slide away from the pressure etc and will make the OL look a lot better because of that.

 

Brady has time because of how excellent Brady is pre snap and maneuvering in the pocket. Cassel behind NE line = Most sacked QB in the NFL...Brady behind same line = One of least sacked QB's in the NFL. Case Closed, myth dispelled...

 

 

 

No disrespect, but I absolutely disagree with this statement...there is more than enough talent on this offense for Brady to succeed and do it a lot better than Fitz. We win a min of 10 games last year, and maybe go to 11 or 12 wins with Brady.

 

Lets see, Brady only led the statistically WORST defense in NFL HISTORY to the SB with only one good WR who is a possession WR, a weak running game, and elite TE. Buffalo has ELITE RB depth, a top WR, and a decent TE, and a WR core that would have GREATLY benefited from catching passes from Brady over Fitz and a better D than NE had last year...Brady was one dropped pass from being a 4 time SB champion and another SB MVP...

 

I am sorry, but to say we wouldnt win 10 games with Brady instead of Fitz last year is comical at best...

Bullcrap. They are not mutually exclusive. Yes, he is extremely good at moving a step to one side or another to avoid the rush. But 80-90% of the time he never has to do it.

 

Here is every single TD he threw last year. There were 5-6 times he moved around really well and avoided the rush. 90% of his touchdowns he dropped back and threw with little rush or had all day in the pocket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohZ4W05xcLQ

[Alphadawg7]

Bullcrap. They are not mutually exclusive. Yes, he is extremely good at moving a step to one side or another to avoid the rush. But 80-90% of the time he never has to do it.

 

Here is every single TD he threw last year. There were 5-6 times he moved around really well and avoided the rush. 90% of his touchdowns he dropped back and threw with little rush or had all day in the pocket.

youtube.com/watch?v=ohZ4W05xcLQ

 

So let me get this straight, you are trying to honestly claim that on 80% to 90% of all NE snaps, Brady has no pressure what so ever and stands back there all day? Are you serious? His OL would be the greatest OL in NFL history with 5 first ballot HOFers on it...that statement is so ridiculous that its not even worth commenting back to be honest.

 

Secondly, again, Brady CREATES time with PRE SNAP reads and adjustments, not to mention, his quick decisions and ability to slide in the pocket to avoid any kind of rush.

 

Again, how do you explain that NE gives up literally the MOST sacks in the NFL with Cassel under center, and the year before and the year after NE was amongst the fewest sacks allowed?

 

Thirdly, go watch your video again...in MANY of those TD's pressure is coming and Brady has already thrown the ball in the first few seconds of the snap. Again, BRADY makes them look all world by again understanding the D and where the pressure is going and where to go with the ball and gets rid of it early and fast as well as makes the necessary adjustments.

 

Case Closed

Edited April 13, 2012 by Alphadawg7

[Kelly the Dog]

So let me get this straight, you are trying to honestly claim that on 80% to 90% of all NE snaps, Brady has no pressure what so ever and stands back there all day? Are you serious? His OL would be the greatest OL in NFL history with 5 first ballot HOFers on it...that statement is so ridiculous that its not even worth commenting back to be honest.

 

Secondly, again, Brady CREATES time with PRE SNAP reads and adjustments, not to mention, his quick decisions and ability to slide in the pocket to avoid any kind of rush.

 

Again, how do you explain that NE gives up literally the MOST sacks in the NFL with Cassel under center, and the year before and the year after NE was amongst the fewest sacks allowed?

 

Thirdly, go watch your video again...in MANY of those TD's pressure is coming and Brady has already thrown the ball in the first few seconds of the snap. Again, BRADY makes them look all world by again understanding the D and where the pressure is going and where to go with the ball and gets rid of it early and fast as well as makes the necessary adjustments.

 

Case Closed

No, I was responding to you saying...

Im so tired of this myth statement thrown around here by Bills fans. Brady has time in the pocket because of Brady, not because its the best O Line in football. Brady is one of the best, if not the best, QB in the NFL at using footwork to buy himself time in the pocket and is one of the most pocket mobile QB's in the league at sliding to avoid pressure to allow the time to make the play.

So i looked at every TD he threw and he didnt buy time on 80-90% of them by using his footwork to buy time, he just dropped back and threw, or dropped back, had tons of time and threw. On one out of every 8-9 passes he threw he bought time with his feet.

[NoSaint]

No, I was responding to you saying...

 

So i looked at every TD he threw and he didnt buy time on 80-90% of them by using his footwork to buy time, he just dropped back and threw, or dropped back, had tons of time and threw. On one out of every 8-9 passes he threw he bought time with his feet.

 

It's hurting me to go against you and side with both Brady and those guys but I must say your wrong in my opinion. The first issue with this video is its all TD passes so it has a terrible ratio of passes designed to get max 10 yards. You don't have to buy near the time, the emphasis is quick decisions and getting the ball to a point on time and accurately which he does very well in that clip (obviously, they all scored). There were very few 4-5 second routes, so of course there's only so much buying time. The sample would be primarily td throws that had excellent coverage but broke down and then had success still to display what alpha is talking about- not an ideal reel for this discussion.

 

Brady's knack for taking a half step up and letting a guy coming clean get totally washed out of a play, or releasing perfectly on time before a guy can get to him is other worldly at times. There were stretches I was convinced that he had someone warning him on his helmet earpiece.

[Kelly the Dog]

It's hurting me to go against you and side with both Brady and those guys but I must say your wrong in my opinion. The first issue with this video is its all TD passes so it has a terrible ratio of passes designed to get max 10 yards. You don't have to buy near the time, the emphasis is quick decisions and getting the ball to a point on time and accurately which he does very well in that clip (obviously, they all scored). There were very few 4-5 second routes, so of course there's only so much buying time. The sample would be primarily td throws that had excellent coverage but broke down and then had success still to display what alpha is talking about- not an ideal reel for this discussion.

 

Brady's knack for taking a half step up and letting a guy coming clean get totally washed out of a play, or releasing perfectly on time before a guy can get to him is other worldly at times. There were stretches I was convinced that he had someone warning him on his helmet earpiece.

In my first post on the topic in this thread I said I thought he was fabulous at that, and he is. Him and Manning are both incredible at it and I don't think anyone else in the league is close to those two, even Brees who is very good at it, too. But that does not at all mean that Brady doesn't have great blocking and a ton of time on a lot of his passes and only uses that extraordinary ability of eluding rushing defenders by sidestepping them, sensing them, stepping up in the pocket, etc, on a smallish percentage of the actual dropbacks.

 

The vast majority of his throws are short and he just drops back and fires in 2 seconds. The second most times IMO he has a LOT of time to throw because his line is awesome. The least amount of times he buys more time in the pocket with his uncanny ability to do it. But there are far more times than that where he simply has all day. Or at least 4-5 seconds to throw. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that watching almost any game he plays. He gets GREAT protection every year. He's also great at moving in the pocket.

 

FWIW, I just did a youtube search for Brady showing any random game where it was edited to show every throw he made in that game, in order to show my point. The first video I saw that had throw after throw showed all his Tds, so I chose to just use that as an indicator, since they are his most important throws.