Character and Talent, plain and unsimple

[CodeMonkey]

Yes it does. OJ is dead to me. If he walked right in front of me, what do I say to my son? There goes a great football player. There goes a criminal? Or just say nothing? When idiots mock fan support by acting immorally (is that a word?) worse, criminally, it all makes sports less important to me. Sports figures used to be heroic. Now they just play sports for a living.

 

If your Doctor was convicted for distibuting Oxy or watching kiddie porn, would you feel any different about him? or could you separate the two because he's a really good doctor. I think we should hold each other to a higher standard, football players included. I seem to be in the minority.

Sports figures are not, and never were, heroic. They play a game for a living, period.

People, mainly kids I would think, might look up to them for various reasons. But they are not heros.

 

You aren't really equating a Doctor, who holds the life of you and your family in his hands, to a professional athlete are you?

You really don't see those two professions as holding the same importance in society, do you? If you do then that is incredibly sad.

[RealityCheck]

Sports figures are not, and never were, heroic. They play a game for a living, period.

People, mainly kids I would think, might look up to them for various reasons. But they are not heros.

 

You aren't really equating a Doctor, who holds the life of you and your family in his hands, to a professional athlete are you?

You really don't see those two professions as holding the same importance in society, do you? If you do then that is incredibly sad.

It's funny. I grew up as a sports fan but even at the age of 5 years old I recognized that pro athletes were merely doing a job. They weren't building hospitals or schools. They weren't healing the sick or feeding the hungry. And they certainly weren't contributing anything to world peace. It was always a kids game to me that was being played by adults. Big deal. The first time I saw a player get carted off the field I thought to myself that s***s, that guy just lost his job. I mostly remember players coming and going in many sports that were not all stars and when their careers were over nobody giving a dam. I have never in my life considered anything an athlete does in their sport as being heroic. I guess some people have to fixate on the fantasy instead of the harsh realities of what is actually happening before our eyes. that kind of warped perception gives us the posters that openly pray for Ralph's death to turn the team around. Simply warped. Oh yeah, we want character guys by the way.

[Kiwi Bills fan]

Character is a very important attribute for me.

 

I couldn't image ever rooting for a team full of millionaire a-holes.

[OldTimer1960]

While I do believe that character IS important, I also believe in 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances. I know its not a popular opinion in this "I want results now world" but we have to remember that these are young men, young men who deal with a lot of stress and pressure at times. We as fans, along with the media are hugely responsible for this and yet we condemn them. Just because these kids are gifted athletes doesn't mean they are super human, a lot are from different social and cultural environments that people like me and you may not be able to relate to or maybe we can, I can't say. What I can say is that I'm a six time felon, been arrested more times than I can count. I've alienated more people and family members I can count, including my son. I've been fired time and time again and being a six time felon finding jobs has always been deservedly difficult. I'm a drug addict and an alcoholic, two stigmas I never thought I could allow to creep out of my mouth, however today i have no problem admitting. I was given so many chances through my life that I lost count, that is until the age of 31. I've got 2 years sober now, my family back, engaged with a daughter on the way and I own 2 business today, but before all of that though I reach out to help others find another chance. Whether it be their second, third or 20th.

 

Character IS important but ones deeds as a young man should not define them for life.

 

Congratulations on your sobriety. I don't understand how your experiences translate to giving potential draftees the benefit of the doubt. By your own story, you have washed out of several jobs and it hasn't been until you are 31 that you've got things together. Given that a NFL player's time ends about when they are 31ish (yes, I know that some play longer - others play a shorter duration). If I were GM of a NFL team, I would be very wary of guys who have had drug and alcohol problems. Note that I am not saying to discount any player who was once caught for under-age drinking or possession of a small amount of marijuana. I am saying that if a guy is a multiple offender, I'd steer clear of him until at least the 4th round.

[Kelly the Dog]

I think a lot of professional athletes we think have a lot of character are actually pricks behind closed doors, and a lot of guys we think are selfish pricks are actually great guys behind closed doors. A lot of our idea of character comes from how a player can present himself through media, and a lot of the very best at it are just acting or know how to communicate. And a lot of the ones who are just being honest, which is admirable, are abused for that honesty or not caring for what people who do not know them care about them.

[You herd it hear last]

I think the character of the team should match the character of the fans in the stands of ralph wilson junior stadium... how do we look now?

[CSBill]

character counts! . . . unless they are incredibly talented?

[CodeMonkey]

character counts! . . . unless they are incredibly talented?

There you go. I knew someone could sum it up in one concise statement

[JPS]

Sports figures are not, and never were, heroic. They play a game for a living, period.

People, mainly kids I would think, might look up to them for various reasons. But they are not heros.

 

You aren't really equating a Doctor, who holds the life of you and your family in his hands, to a professional athlete are you?

You really don't see those two professions as holding the same importance in society, do you? If you do then that is incredibly sad.

Semantics. Admired . Heroes. I barely admire any of them. But I just can't find a Fathead of my good Dr. Weiderman.

 

I think you missed my point. Of course Doctors are more important. But as important as he is, if your Doctor was a drug addict or beat his wife, you may be shopping for a new Doctor. Why should it be any different for your Linebacker?

 

If I'm going to wear a Bills sweatshirt, I want that to reflect admirable people and not dirtbags. That's all I'm saying and I'm sure it's something easily agreed upon.

[Kelly the Dog]

Semantics. Admired . Heroes. I barely admire any of them. But I just can't find a Fathead of my good Dr. Weiderman.

 

I think you missed my point. Of course Doctors are more important. But as important as he is, if your Doctor was a drug addict or beat his wife, you may be shopping for a new Doctor. Why should it be any different for your Linebacker?

 

If I'm going to wear a Bills sweatshirt, I want that to reflect admirable people and not dirtbags. That's all I'm saying and I'm sure it's something easily agreed upon.

I mostly agree with Code Monkey. Sports fans, and especially kids, usually look for the "heroic" stuff only on the field. Pete Rose was a good example. He probably did more for baseball than almost any player. Kids used to emulate him hustling and playing hard and hitting, and even for little things like running to first on walks and barreling into the catcher trying to score from third like in the all star game. But no one anywhere is actually going to think it is okay to bet on baseball games when you're a baseball player because Pete Rose did. No one is going to stiff cabbies because Patrick Kane did. No one is going to go into a strip club and make it rain like Pacman Jones did unless they were an idiot beforehand. I think the idolatry ends on the field or hoop court or ice.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Kelly the Dog

[Captain Hindsight]

I mostly agree with Code Monkey. Sports fans, and especially kids, usually look for the "heroic" stuff only on the field. Pete Rose was a good example. He probably did more for baseball than almost any player. Kids used to emulate him hustling and playing hard and hitting, and even for little things like running to first on walks and barreling into the catcher trying to score from third like in the all star game. But no one anywhere is actually going to think it is okay to bet on baseball games when you're a baseball player because Pete Rose did. No one is going to stiff cabbies because Patrick Kane did. No one is going to go into a strip club and make it rain like Pacman Jones did unless they were an idiot beforehand. I think the idolatry ends on the field or hoop court or ice.

That's fair Kelly.

 

If I'm a GM, before I give a kid millions and risk my job and my families lives on his success, I'm going to make sure I can trust him to work hard, stay out of trouble and be a good teammate. Especially in the first 3 rounds where you need to hit on those picks. I'm 23, I'm not perfect and i know what its like to be in college and how pretty the girls are and how easy it is to make certain choices and I wont fault kids for getting drunk or smoking pot in school, but when you become a professional athlete, I expect you to be a professional

[simpleman]

It's simple psychology. You want to take solace in the fact that your irrational obsession with a sport you don't play and requires your emotional and financial investment is played by men that you can identify with because you are living vicariously through them. To complete the fantasy in your mind you and others need to feel that these players are the salt of the Earth off the field to justify your obsession and connection with them as they are a fictional representation of the you that you will never be. When they screw up in life you are then incensed and self-righteous about it and once again have a mechanism to artificially improve your self esteem. I only ask for one thing. "Just win baby!"

Agree! It's about winning, we are not talking about a religious leader, politician, teacher, next door neighbor, family or friend. It's a paid athlete who is paid to win.

Edited April 9, 2012 by simpleman

[JPS]

That's fair Kelly.

 

If I'm a GM, before I give a kid millions and risk my job and my families lives on his success, I'm going to make sure I can trust him to work hard, stay out of trouble and be a good teammate. Especially in the first 3 rounds where you need to hit on those picks. I'm 23, I'm not perfect and i know what its like to be in college and how pretty the girls are and how easy it is to make certain choices and I wont fault kids for getting drunk or smoking pot in school, but when you become a professional athlete, I expect you to be a professional

I think that about sums it up well.

[CodeMonkey]

I think you missed my point. Of course Doctors are more important. But as important as he is, if your Doctor was a drug addict or beat his wife, you may be shopping for a new Doctor. Why should it be any different for your Linebacker?

Because it IS different. If my Doctor is a drug addict my life is at risk. If he beats his wife he probably doesn't value life very much and that also puts my life at risk. If, however, my Doctor made it rain at a strip club it certainly would not make me drop him if he was a good Doctor.

 

I get your point. You seem to want to put people on a pedestal and expect whatever your definition of good behavior is from them in all aspects of their lives. I disagree and generally only care if it directly affects their performance. I do admit that I would be more inclined to scrutinize my Doctors behavior more because of the impact (s)he has on my health. But I literally could not care less what any player on a sports team that I only follow as a hobby does in his private life, as long as it does not affect his performance.

 

In short (and hopefully in conclusion ) we disagree on the role of professional athletes in society in general. You think they should be held to a higher standard and I cannot think of one reason why they should. At the end of the day, they simply play a game.

[JPS]

Because it IS different. If my Doctor is a drug addict my life is at risk. If he beats his wife he probably doesn't value life very much and that also puts my life at risk. If, however, my Doctor made it rain at a strip club it certainly would not make me drop him if he was a good Doctor.

 

I get your point. You seem to want to put people on a pedestal and expect whatever your definition of good behavior is from them in all aspects of their lives. I disagree and generally only care if it directly affects their performance. I do admit that I would be more inclined to scrutinize my Doctors behavior more because of the impact (s)he has on my health. But I literally could not care less what any player on a sports team that I only follow as a hobby does in his private life, as long as it does not affect his performance.

 

In short (and hopefully in conclusion ) we disagree on the role of professional athletes in society in general. You think they should be held to a higher standard and I cannot think of one reason why they should. At the end of the day, they simply play a game.

Last thing I'll say...I don't think they should be held to a higher standard. I just don't think we should accept a lower standard just because they play football. I think we're dancing around the same conclusion.

[OldTimer1960]

Because it IS different. If my Doctor is a drug addict my life is at risk. If he beats his wife he probably doesn't value life very much and that also puts my life at risk. If, however, my Doctor made it rain at a strip club it certainly would not make me drop him if he was a good Doctor.

 

I get your point. You seem to want to put people on a pedestal and expect whatever your definition of good behavior is from them in all aspects of their lives. I disagree and generally only care if it directly affects their performance. I do admit that I would be more inclined to scrutinize my Doctors behavior more because of the impact (s)he has on my health. But I literally could not care less what any player on a sports team that I only follow as a hobby does in his private life, as long as it does not affect his performance.

 

In short (and hopefully in conclusion ) we disagree on the role of professional athletes in society in general. You think they should be held to a higher standard and I cannot think of one reason why they should. At the end of the day, they simply play a game.

 

To me, the key phrase in your response is "as long as it does not affect his performance". I am in general agreement with you, but I do believe that having an alcohol or drug problem (if it is serious) can affect a player's performance and definitely these problems can lead to suspensions which bring the player's performance to nil.

[CodeMonkey]

To me, the key phrase in your response is "as long as it does not affect his performance". I am in general agreement with you, but I do believe that having an alcohol or drug problem (if it is serious) can affect a player's performance and definitely these problems can lead to suspensions which bring the player's performance to nil.

Agree completely.

[PDaDdy]

Some here want players with character who can produce. Others want players who just produce no matter what their mentality is even if it's questionable off the field. I know some of our beloved Bills of the past weren't so straight laced. But I'm talking about the Bills of present.

 

Just to get a gauge of the peeps on here, who cares about our present day Bills having character and who doesn't? Assuming production is equal no matter the mentality.

 

I know it's a stupid question but seeing some posters not caring about character much and only wanting production has been a bit thought provoking to me. As I grow older and I hope a bit wiser I think more fans would prefer to have both attributes in our players. If our players can just produce, perhaps that's all that counts in some books.

 

At this point in my life I can't throw all my fanaticism into a team without character. What would this say about me? What would this say about you as a person? Our current team is growing before our eyes and it's being built the way it should be. Life and our team, without character what else is there? Winning without character is just...well I think many of you get the drift...

 

What are your thoughts? Would you rather win with character or without? In the end does it matter to you?

 

If this thread dies right off the bat....well then that will give me an impression too...not the one I would be looking for but an impression nonetheless....

 

It's silly question in a way. It's like asking if you like organic or regular steak. The answer is yes as long as it is a steak. I would prefer an organic steak but I won't settle for tofu if the steak isn't organic. Do you care if your president used to be a coke snorting alcoholic if you think he is doing a good job as president? Do you care if your boss is cheating on his wife if he runs the company well, makes your life easy and pays you GREAT money to do it? The answers to those questions are for the most part no.

 

Sure, we wish they were better people but the job they do is generally more important than who they are as a person. As long as who they are as a person doesn't have a significant impact on how they do their job I don't care too much.

 

Winning is the most important thing. I would rather win with character. That being said NFL players are human beings that make mistakes and are flawed just like every one of us. In many cases they are more flawed. They are taught to make a friend of aggression. They are put on a privileged pedestal that can often cause a person to lose their grounding and perspective. They see the hypocrisy of the the business of football at the college level. Despite getting a free education which has to come second to their dedication to football their contributions on the football field make MILLIONS for the universities and the NCAA. Meanwhile they might not even have a car to drive or have the money to take a girl out on a date.

 

The difference with us is that we don't live under a microscope and have our every little transgression blown out of proportion and criticized by every fan who wants to feel they are better, smarter or holier than thou. All NFL players are are human beings that won the genetic lottery, were mentally tough enough and worked hard enough to hone those skills to become an NFL player.

 

I would rather win with a flawed bunch of HUMAN beings with some character questions than lose with a bunch of squeaky clean guys that can't get the job done.

Edited April 9, 2012 by PDaDdy