GOBILLS!!!!! Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 I am sick and tired of people stating that buffalo cannot support the bills financially or attendance wise. First of all we have missed the playoffs for 12 straight years so dont you think that may be the reason that some games are blacked out? I challenge you to find a team even in a big city that would support a team after missing the playoffs that long. Look at detriot..they were getting support in the 20000s recently and for some reason they arent talked about being moved. Have you ever seen the ralph with 20000 people? no. Also if ralph was smart enough he would field a winning team and raise the ticket prices. This is how you make money and not by cheaping out on the product and complaining about a small market. Also isnt this the reason we are playing games in toronto? This obviously is expanding our fanbase and think about if we started winning... that fanbase would be even larger than it is now. Please just stop with the buffalo cannot support this "new" NFL because we can easily be middle of the pack of revenue if only there was a G** D*** winning franchise here. How do you think Greenbay can support a team only having 300000 people in that city. BY WINNING its honestly not that hard so next time you talk about buffalo moving think about why its even being talked about..because we just lose and thats it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) Yeah, its all Ralphs fault because he won't put a winning team on the field. Lets just forget the name on Detroits stadium for a moment and forget they call Detroit "the motor City" with atleast 2 of the biggest automakers in the industry headquartered there. THE PROBLEM ISN'T IN FAN ATTENDANCE, ITS IN BIG TIME SPONSORSHIPS AND LUXURY SEATING/BOXES! Thats where the real money is made. Detroit has Ford and GM that can buy advertising and luxury suites, Buffalo has Saleens Hot Dogs and Celino & Barnes. Edited December 16, 2011 by apuszczalowski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homey D. Clown Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Anyone with a shred of common sense should know that it's not the area that can't support the team, it's the miserly owner who cries poverty year in and year out, but happens to be one of the wealthiest owners in the NFL. Geographically speaking, the area has plenty of corporate support, but this franchise is run like a profit business only on the low/risk, low reward business model, so you get the garbage you see now. It has nothing to do with Western NY. The Polian era was a fluke. If the man needed the income bad enough, he would have sold the naming rights to the stadium, which by the way has had plenty of opportunity to do so, but if that were accomplished, then old Ralphie-poo would not get as much state assisted funding to improve the facility, or nearly as much profit shared from the larger market teams. Try to rationalize any other reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Anyone with a shred of common sense should know that it's not the area that can't support the team, it's the miserly owner who cries poverty year in and year out, but happens to be one of the wealthiest owners in the NFL. Geographically speaking, the area has plenty of corporate support, but this franchise is run like a profit business only on the low/risk, low reward business model, so you get the garbage you see now. It has nothing to do with Western NY. The Polian era was a fluke. If the man needed the income bad enough, he would have sold the naming rights to the stadium, which by the way has had plenty of opportunity to do so, but if that were accomplished, then old Ralphie-poo would not get as much state assisted funding to improve the facility, or nearly as much profit shared from the larger market teams. Try to rationalize any other reason. My mistake, I forgot about how much of a thriving Metropolis Buffalo is and all the corporate Headquarters and industry that is located in WNY. Do you seriously believe that the Buffalo area has as much, if not more corporate support then any other NFL franchise? Celino & Barnes, Saleens Hot Dogs and Rich products are as lucrative sponsors as Ford, FedEx, Reliant Energy, Lincoln Financial, or Gillette? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 My mistake, I forgot about how much of a thriving Metropolis Buffalo is and all the corporate Headquarters and industry that is located in WNY. Do you seriously believe that the Buffalo area has as much, if not more corporate support then any other NFL franchise? Celino & Barnes, Saleens Hot Dogs and Rich products are as lucrative sponsors as Ford, FedEx, Reliant Energy, Lincoln Financial, or Gillette? You don't need a fortune 500 Co to buy the luxury boxes, there are literally thousands of small to mid size companies in and around Buffalo, Rochester, Toronto that would support the team "IF" RW didn't play it so close to the vest! Winning is everything, Bill Polian tried to instil that in this owner during his tenure with the Buffalo Bills. Polian had to constantly fight with the 3 headed monster that runs this franchise, so much so that they eventually won out. The result is this owners dream, "his" team supports his family and all his hobbies, like horse breeding and horse racing. Unlike the majority of the other NFL owners, the bottom line is all this owner cares about, winning is secondary and always has been!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 It's not the season ticket prices that are making this franchise lose money. It's lack of sponsors and more importantly luxery/corporate boxes and more recently seating liscenses. Look at the seat liscenses for Dallas, 50K per seat over 30 years and that doesn't even include the price if the seats and that's just the seats in between the 20s. Other places like NYC (er. Jersey) charge seat liscenses as well and they also charge anywhere from 100-300K for boxes. We charge 80K and don't sell the boxes out to start off and we don't have nearly as many boxes as these newer stadiums or stadiums recently upgraded like GB or Chicago. You could charge an extra $50 a ticket and still not be expensive by NFL standards and over you 7 games your talking about 25M which is a lot to us but to these owners it's chump change. The boxes are hundreds of millions a year, not just millions. Sponsorship deals is another thing that we could upgrade like naming rights in the stadium. Again it's about 25M a year at most. And that's with a large sponsor which Buffalo really doesn't have. Ralph gets a tax writeoff by naming the stadium after himself. Not 25M worth obviously but not being in a large market your not going to get that kind of scratch. I'd guess around 10M a year for naming rights in Buffalo would be going rate (not basing on anything other than speculation) and that's not even enough to sign Stevie J this year probably. Sure everything adds up, but to these guys 20-30M a year is nothing, they probably spend more than that in equipment every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 My mistake, I forgot about how much of a thriving Metropolis Buffalo is and all the corporate Headquarters and industry that is located in WNY. Do you seriously believe that the Buffalo area has as much, if not more corporate support then any other NFL franchise? Celino & Barnes, Saleens Hot Dogs and Rich products are as lucrative sponsors as Ford, FedEx, Reliant Energy, Lincoln Financial, or Gillette? Corporate sponsors marketing departments want to associate their company and products with a winner. Firms like Nike, Reebok, etc. If the Bills were winning they would attract a lot more corporate dollars than they are now. A firm does not needs its HQ in a city for it to market itself with a sports organization. For example, how many corporate HQ's are in Green Bay? Look at owners like Jerry Jones who many dislike. They know they value of winning in financial terms is going to be greater off the field than on the field. The Bills brass are content to milk maximum cash flow annually out of minimal effort. Honestly, is there a person among us that really believes that Bills' ownership and the front office (non-football guys) have any commitment to win or place any organizational priority on getting to the Super Bowl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny33 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 The profit margins are fairly thin for some teams. http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/30/nfl-valuations-11_land.html Sorting by operating income/EBITDA, the Bills are ninth with operating income of $40 million. That's a huge number, largely driven by the fact that Buffalo spends so far below the cap each year. With the new CBA rules, Buffalo will likely cease to be profitable most years; revenue-sharing is capped at $3.5 million, and Buffalo will have to spend a significant amount (at least $20 million per annum) more on players. Interestingly, Cleveland and Detroit lost money, while teams like Seattle and San Francisco- in big markets- barely made a profit. Cleveland and Kansas City may be in particularly dire straits with the new salary cap requirements, given that they tend to spend 20-30 million below cap every year, which would result in an annual operating loss. As other posters have said, it is delusional to believe that Buffalo's businesses spend significant amounts on luxury boxes; they aren't full, despite being among the cheapest in the league. It will be interesting to see what happens with these small market teams as they're forced to spend more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Corporate sponsors marketing departments want to associate their company and products with a winner. Firms like Nike, Reebok, etc. If the Bills were winning they would attract a lot more corporate dollars than they are now. A firm does not needs its HQ in a city for it to market itself with a sports organization. For example, how many corporate HQ's are in Green Bay? Look at owners like Jerry Jones who many dislike. They know they value of winning in financial terms is going to be greater off the field than on the field. The Bills brass are content to milk maximum cash flow annually out of minimal effort. Honestly, is there a person among us that really believes that Bills' ownership and the front office (non-football guys) have any commitment to win or place any organizational priority on getting to the Super Bowl? hows that winning thing going recently for Jerry, and even Snyder in Washington? Do you think that either would have the same success if they didn't own teams in some of the biggest markets? Green Bay might be one of the only exceptions out there right now, but they have a long, rich history of success dating back to the begining of the NFL, and have had the luxury of having a solid, HOF QB in Brett Favre for a long time, then were lucky enough to have the torch passed to a guy who looks like he just might top Favre with his play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny33 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 hows that winning thing going recently for Jerry, and even Snyder in Washington? Do you think that either would have the same success if they didn't own teams in some of the biggest markets? Green Bay might be one of the only exceptions out there right now, but they have a long, rich history of success dating back to the begining of the NFL, and have had the luxury of having a solid, HOF QB in Brett Favre for a long time, then were lucky enough to have the torch passed to a guy who looks like he just might top Favre with his play Yep, Washington is a great example. Despite having a consistently terrible team, they have been the second-most profitable team this decade. That's entirely because of their market and corporate sponsorships, which the team would have win or lose. As you said, Buffalo isn't going to attract corporate sponsors even if they become the next Packers (the Packers actually have some of the lowest revenues from sponsorships- because they're in a tiny market). There's no financial benefit to pouring NYC or D.C.-like money into advertising in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 I am sick and tired of people stating that buffalo cannot support the bills financially or attendance wise. First of all we have missed the playoffs for 12 straight years so dont you think that may be the reason that some games are blacked out? I challenge you to find a team even in a big city that would support a team after missing the playoffs that long. Look at detriot..they were getting support in the 20000s recently and for some reason they arent talked about being moved. Have you ever seen the ralph with 20000 people? no. Also if ralph was smart enough he would field a winning team and raise the ticket prices. This is how you make money and not by cheaping out on the product and complaining about a small market. Also isnt this the reason we are playing games in toronto? This obviously is expanding our fanbase and think about if we started winning... that fanbase would be even larger than it is now. Please just stop with the buffalo cannot support this "new" NFL because we can easily be middle of the pack of revenue if only there was a G** D*** winning franchise here. How do you think Greenbay can support a team only having 300000 people in that city. BY WINNING its honestly not that hard so next time you talk about buffalo moving think about why its even being talked about..because we just lose and thats it I don't think ralph is hell bent on maximizing profit with the Bills at this point. He's making the franchise lean and (not) Mean. Any smart company getting ready for sale, will minimize financial liabilities to maximize profit on the sale. So in the case of the Bills no big time free agents, that a new ownership might consider a liability not only on the field but on the books. They will want too sign, etc. their own people, players, and staff. Ralph would be perfectly happy with an 8 and 8 team. Just good enough to (maybe) silence the critics, spark hope, etc. but not good enough to be a play off tam which would require more money to keep that team together in terms of player payroll. Ralph and company are perfectly happy to get cheap free agents, or sign off other practice squads. These players are on the cusp of ending up bagging groceries. They play cheep just to stay in the game. for the most part. They are extremely interchangeable (see our current TE's) Most likely now the Wilson family is more concerned about the SALE price of the franchise more than maximizing a few more million per season in profit.Keeping costs down achieves this. The big prize lies in the sale price of the team after Ralph passes. Not year to year profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 You don't need a fortune 500 Co to buy the luxury boxes, there are literally thousands of small to mid size companies in and around Buffalo, Rochester, Toronto that would support the team "IF" RW didn't play it so close to the vest! Winning is everything, Bill Polian tried to instil that in this owner during his tenure with the Buffalo Bills. Polian had to constantly fight with the 3 headed monster that runs this franchise, so much so that they eventually won out. The result is this owners dream, "his" team supports his family and all his hobbies, like horse breeding and horse racing. Unlike the majority of the other NFL owners, the bottom line is all this owner cares about, winning is secondary and always has been!! You really believe that the majority of NFL owners don't care more about turning a profit????????? they might all say publically that winning is #1, but alot of buisness owners will tell you things you want to hear Except for maybe Dan Snyder, I don't think that he would accept consistently losing money on the team if it meant that his team would win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 hows that winning thing going recently for Jerry, and even Snyder in Washington? Do you think that either would have the same success if they didn't own teams in some of the biggest markets? Green Bay might be one of the only exceptions out there right now, but they have a long, rich history of success dating back to the begining of the NFL, and have had the luxury of having a solid, HOF QB in Brett Favre for a long time, then were lucky enough to have the torch passed to a guy who looks like he just might top Favre with his play Of course the size of the market matters and its going to be a factor but winning is one something that is going to assist you in reaching your maximum potential in that market. But how do you explain the difference between the Los Angeles Lakers and the Los Angeles Clippers? Both play in the same market and at the same venue. Yet one is highly followed while the other is an afterthought. Tradition plays a big role for sure but one is a winning organization and the other is a perenial loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Of course the size of the market matters and its going to be a factor but winning is one something that is going to assist you in reaching your maximum potential in that market. But how do you explain the difference between the Los Angeles Lakers and the Los Angeles Clippers? Both play in the same market and at the same venue. Yet one is highly followed while the other is an afterthought. Tradition plays a big role for sure but one is a winning organization and the other is a perenial loser. It could also depend on who was there first. The Lakers were in LA way before the Clippers and already had a fan base. Same could be said for the Yankees/Mets too, Rangers/Islanders, etc. Usually the Afterthought is the team thats came to the area second..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 I am sick and tired of people stating that buffalo cannot support the bills financially or attendance wise. First of all we have missed the playoffs for 12 straight years so dont you think that may be the reason that some games are blacked out? I challenge you to find a team even in a big city that would support a team after missing the playoffs that long. Look at detriot..they were getting support in the 20000s recently and for some reason they arent talked about being moved. Have you ever seen the ralph with 20000 people? no. Also if ralph was smart enough he would field a winning team and raise the ticket prices. This is how you make money and not by cheaping out on the product and complaining about a small market. Also isnt this the reason we are playing games in toronto? This obviously is expanding our fanbase and think about if we started winning... that fanbase would be even larger than it is now. Please just stop with the buffalo cannot support this "new" NFL because we can easily be middle of the pack of revenue if only there was a G** D*** winning franchise here. How do you think Greenbay can support a team only having 300000 people in that city. BY WINNING its honestly not that hard so next time you talk about buffalo moving think about why its even being talked about..because we just lose and thats it totally agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Who was one of the first franchise owners to sell the naming rights to a stadium in the USA? Hmm. Can't think of it at the moment. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Who was one of the first franchise owners to sell the naming rights to a stadium in the USA? Hmm. Can't think of it at the moment. GO BILLS!!! That's "Rich"!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Ralph gets a tax writeoff by naming the stadium after himself. I'll probably regret this, but how so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 You really believe that the majority of NFL owners don't care more about turning a profit????????? they might all say publically that winning is #1, but alot of buisness owners will tell you things you want to hear Except for maybe Dan Snyder, I don't think that he would accept consistently losing money on the team if it meant that his team would win. They all want to make money no question, it is after all a business! OTOH so many owners over the years were forced to sell all or part of the team because they were losing money because of over spending while trying to make turn their team into a winner. Al Davis comes to mind first, also the last owner of the Dolphins. It is easy to over spend on free agents, players, coaches. The former owner of the Jacksonville Jags Wayne Weaver is really hating on the fact that he let Tim Tebow slip thru his fingers as he wanted to draft Tebow but former HC Jack Del Rio and the GM said he wouldn't work. Now Weaver looks at Denver and realizes his stadium would be filled every week with a winner like Tebow on the field. Weaver has been looking for an exit strategy for years, but would have kept the team if he could have made it more profitable. Teams need to listen to their fans. The Bronco's fans put up a billboard asking to start Tebow when the coaches and GM had him 3rd string QB. The Bills fans also put up a billboard asking RW to hire Bills Cowher.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 They all want to make money no question, it is after all a business! OTOH so many owners over the years were forced to sell all or part of the team because they were losing money because of over spending while trying to make turn their team into a winner. Al Davis comes to mind first, also the last owner of the Dolphins. It is easy to over spend on free agents, players, coaches. The former owner of the Jacksonville Jags Wayne Weaver is really hating on the fact that he let Tim Tebow slip thru his fingers as he wanted to draft Tebow but former HC Jack Del Rio and the GM said he wouldn't work. Now Weaver looks at Denver and realizes his stadium would be filled every week with a winner like Tebow on the field. Weaver has been looking for an exit strategy for years, but would have kept the team if he could have made it more profitable. Teams need to listen to their fans. The Bronco's fans put up a billboard asking to start Tebow when the coaches and GM had him 3rd string QB. The Bills fans also put up a billboard asking RW to hire Bills Cowher.... Weaver couldn't sell that place out with K.Kringle as a placekicker. Jacksonville sucks as a NFL city. Tebow would have just prolonged the pain. Good luck to the new owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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