Zulu Cthulhu Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Many of you are confusing tolerance with silent approval. All of us are tolerating Tebow's various antics - his praying for field goals, his super bowl commercial, the eye black bible verses, etc. His faith displays are so public we don't have a choice but to tolerate them. What we don't have to do is silently roll our eyes and accept without criticism behaviour that some of us find incredibly boorish and unnecessary. People can criticize Tebow just as publicly - and shouldn't be labeled bigoted or intolerant for doing so. The idea that another's public religious displays should be "sacred" and above reproach doesn't jive with some that don't believe in sanctity or some other religious notion in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanJosePete Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Many of you are confusing tolerance with silent approval. All of us are tolerating Tebow's various antics - his praying for field goals, his super bowl commercial, the eye black bible verses, etc. His faith displays are so public we don't have a choice but to tolerate them. What we don't have to do is silently roll our eyes and accept without criticism behaviour that some of us find incredibly boorish and unnecessary. People can criticize Tebow just as publicly - and shouldn't be labeled bigoted or intolerant for doing so. The idea that another's public religious displays should be "sacred" and above reproach doesn't jive with some that don't believe in sanctity or some other religious notion in the first place. Like your opinions, love your HP Lovecraft themed icon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Your "hunch" is, by defintion, ignorant. Why you would choose to insult over 500 Million+ people you have never met by demonstrating your ignorance of them is a mystery to say the least. Really now? I'm betting if a fraction of the 500M+ people think like this guy, I'm not that far off. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkwwjd Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Really now? I'm betting if a fraction of the 500M+ people think like this guy, I'm not that far off. PTR Well ... There's a safe statement to make ... If only one more person thinks like that, you have a fraction ... Way to pull an obscure story that only supports YOUR side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 When they make a big public display of it. Look I was raised a good Roman Catholic boy. I was both a choir and alter boy. Got all the Sacrements (except for last Rites, lol) There is an idea in Catholicism that one needs to be humble. Of course that means humble to God, but also to your fellow man. Striking a pose and letting everyone know you are praying a couple times a game does not strike me as humility. PTR I think you are right on track with this PTR. It smacks of "Look at Me, I'm pious!" I personally would have absolutely no problem with players taking a knee in public display of praying after a touchdown.....as long as that is what they would normally do in their regular lives. Has anybody ever seen such a public display of praying outside of Church or Sports? People regularly have things happen that they have either been praying for or are thankful to God for occurring. They don't just drop to one knee in the middle of the street/work/supermarket/home etc and publicly thank God.....or do they? I have never seen it nor have I even heard of this happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matthew 6:5 Just sayin'. Edited November 1, 2011 by RJ (not THAT RJ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Has anybody ever seen such a public display of praying outside of Church or Sports? well, yes, i have...many times. ever been in a hospital? clergy regularly make rounds with prayers at bedside.. private schools? in the bible belt, it's quite common to see families say grace in restaurants. i've seen it at civic club meetings. at golf outings before the shotgun start. just because it's not part of your culture doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdBlueNorth Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I think all praying on the field of play is a huge look at me moment. Everybody can believe what they want, just keep it to yourself. Depends on what keeping to yourself means - still a free country and a simple kneel or pointing to the sky is no more offensive then doing some dance in the end zone IMO. If a guy wants folks to know how he stands it's his business, kind of makes the fall that much farther if he screws up and the media grabs a hold of it. Dunno, maybe it is better for players to be complete tards and set the moral expectation bar low....real low because my expectations of most professional athletes off the field behavior is generally not too high. I do think the Bills have a pretty down to earth roster though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Well ... There's a safe statement to make ... If only one more person thinks like that, you have a fraction ... Way to pull an obscure story that only supports YOUR side. Well you know what they say...it only takes one to give everyone a bad rep. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebug Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Why does God make Tebow suck so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 well, yes, i have...many times. ever been in a hospital? clergy regularly make rounds with prayers at bedside.. private schools? in the bible belt, it's quite common to see families say grace in restaurants. i've seen it at civic club meetings. at golf outings before the shotgun start. just because it's not part of your culture doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I knew I should have expanded the meaning of "Church" to....."typical time/place for praying". Taking a knee & praying for sick people in a hospital....normal. Saying grace before eating.....normal. Praying in a group as part of an organized prayer such as Church, meetings, religious schools, before an event(sporting included)....normal. Taking a knee and thanking God in the middle of a normal environment(such as work/supermarket/street/watching TV)....not normal. Like I said, if a person normally would drop to a knee when they have things happen that they have either been praying for or are thankful to God for occurring....if that is what they would normally do....I have no issue with it. Again, I have never heard of somebody dropping to a knee in regular life. Told by the boss of a raise, stock portfolio has increased, got a reply from the girl you really like....etc, etc, etc. "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matthew 6:5 Just sayin'. And sayin' it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkwwjd Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Well you know what they say...it only takes one to give everyone a bad rep. PTR That may be what 'they' say, but it's a real stretch for someone as informed and intelligent as you (and I really mean that) to rely on a simple platitude as a basis for a debate. Every group has that one person (or subgroup) that makes the rest look bad. To group Tebow in with someone like the guy you referred to has nothing to do with his lack of ability to play football, nor any of the issues with which he has used his faith to stand up for. That's poor extrapolation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) That may be what 'they' say, but it's a real stretch for someone as informed and intelligent as you (and I really mean that) to rely on a simple platitude as a basis for a debate. Every group has that one person (or subgroup) that makes the rest look bad. To group Tebow in with someone like the guy you referred to has nothing to do with his lack of ability to play football, nor any of the issues with which he has used his faith to stand up for. That's poor extrapolation. I think your are confusing things a bit. I only posted that article to show an egregious example of intolerance. I wasn't equating Tebow with the guy. But you have to admit the more visible religious pillars, be it radical Muslim clerics or Pat Robertson on the 700 Club 1) All think they have an in with God, 2) all think they are right and everyone else is going to "heck", and 3) all display intolerance for those who do not share their beliefs. So I guess that is why I'm wary of those who are exceptionally outgoing in their religious practice. They always seem to have an agenda. PTR Edited November 1, 2011 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsBiker Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 I would like to see a muslim player break out the prayer rug after a great tackle. hahaha that made me laugh picturing it happening!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Belucheese Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I did hear Fitz in the huddle telling the guys they were a Wolfpack. hahaha!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobChalmers Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Really now? I'm betting if a fraction of the 500M+ people think like this guy, I'm not that far off. PTR 500M+ refers to the word "most" you used. There are over 1B Christians in the world. You didn't say fraction the first time - you said "most" => so I translated for you (>500M) to illustrate the absurdity of your claim. Your speaking for them was odd at a minimum, and to be upfront - more than a little arrogant. I'm not a big public prayer guy myself - but it's flat out disturbing how freaked out so many want to be about it. There are lots of NFL players who do some sort of prayer as their TD celebration, etc. and have been for decades. Why all sudden is it necessary to mock this behavior? I'm thinking it has more to do with the attitude of the people doing the mocking than the players who are doing the same praying they always have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zulu Cthulhu Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I don't disagree, but you really think calling Tebow's praying "Tebowing" and players mimicking it as a sack celebration is tolerant criticism? You can criticize him. But I think this is just plain mean-spirited mockery, which is uncalled for. I suppose the entire "tebowing" social network phenomenon is laced with more than a little bad taste and mockery. I'm not as hip as I used to be, but it seemed the "tebowing" thing started as a riff on the earlier "planking" bit that was picked up by mainstream outlets like ESPN and emulated by athletes much the same way as Detroit players did their "tebowing" on sunday. Those of us here who've been debating here though can't really be held responsible (or in agreement with) the mockery that has resulted from TT's very public displays of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthGeorgiaBillsFan Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 You mean YOUR belief system (hence, you make my point). My Mom happens to be a protestant minister, and I can safely say there are sharp disagreements on many key issues even among so-called Protestants (not even taking on differences with Catholics, Evangelicals, the Amish, Eastern Orthodox, etc). Even if you take a quick look over religious history (hell, even the last 100 years), and it's amazing how people can get so upset about who is right and wrong about basic issues. And you gall to accuse me of not understanding the Christian belief system . . . But I will give you this chance: So, what IS the Christian Belief System? I said educate yourself, not me educate you. And I like how you assume I am a Christian. I am not. I do not question the existence of God, so I am neither agnostic nor atheist. I question the nature of God - specifically that God a. has any hand in day to day activities of mortals on Earth, or of anything that happens in the universe, at least within the context of our understanding of time, and b. that God cares what happens to us or what we do. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I don't know. I only even call him God because that is the label most familiar to the masses - I really prefer to think of God as the Source, or the Original Cause. I believe this source is a sentient and omnipotent entity, but I question whether it cares what we do. I think of existence as a computer program, and the execution of this program is what we know as the space-time continuum. God is the programmer who defined the parameters of the program before its execution was initialized, and we call these parameters physics. This is not a true belief system, because unlike dogmatic zealots, my beliefs on the matter constantly change to reflect how my own understanding evolves. Because I accept that I do not know the unequivocal truth and I never will, I also must therefore accept that no matter what, my understanding will always be flawed. And because of this, these items that I enumerated as my beliefs are merely the least logically flawed explanations that I have been able to arrive at after years of reflection upon the subject. Now, even someone as narrow-minded in their understanding of Christian beliefs as you should be able to recognize that this is not the dogma of any Christian on Earth. And yes, though there are fundamental differences even among the many denominations of Christianity, the basic core dogma is the same. If you even need these core beliefs explained, it only further illustrates your ignorance of Christian belief systems. So when I call you out for ridiculing anyone for practicing their beliefs, you can be assured that I am speaking to the intolerance and bigotry that festers in your heart. Because ultimately, none of us truly knows the unequivocal truth, and therefore none of us has any right to judge the beliefs of others. That's all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. K Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Matthew 6:6 "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their public displays of religiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooderson Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 No offense to the OP, but I am getting sick of this "Tebowing" thing. If he were a muslim, you think people would be making fun of him for praying? I hope he freaking smites all of the haters. I don't think it's quite so much him kneeling and praying, but rather making fun of the media's obsession over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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